25 reasons why you should abandon Premillennialism

[MA2444]

What wicked? That is Strongs definition. So you are claiming Strongs is "literalizing the figurative, and spiritualized what is figurative" whatever that means, as you keep making up that excuse.

You are not taking context into consideration because your thousand years in not literal. If the Day of the Lord is actually thousands of years as you keep insisting, there will be hundreds of billions of perfect humans ripe to be deceieved by Satan. But no one is wicked. That is your own made up scenario.

After the Day of the Lord ends, those are literal people as symbolized by the symbolic terms Magog and Gog. Or do you think the humans are symbolic of dead people and the wicked are literally people come back from the dead in your scenario?

Gog and Magog represent those people in the remotest locations. As they are the last few generations, and who Satan targets with his deception. Obviously Satan does not attempt to deceive the camp of the saints. Even you don't take this as a literal nation of today. No one would believe you. They also don't symbolize "wicked sinners". That would be like you saying Russia is a group of "wicked sinners", and America is a group of "God's elect". That is not how symbolism works.

Yes, Egypt has symbolized the world. Babylon has symbolized a one world governmental system. Gog and Magog just symbolizes a foreign influence that gathers together other nations besides themselves for a purpose of war. All of humanity are born wicked sinners. That does not need to be symbolized by a national term. That is understood in Adam as mankind. One would not even use the term "Garden of Eden" as symbolizing "wicked sinners", even though that is where sin started, obviously because God would not let sin enter the Garden/Paradise. So why would you keep insisting that God would let sin, much less "wicked sinners" into the Day of the Lord?

How can a wicked person be deceived if the point is to turn that person into a wicked sinner?

Those humans are not even sinners until they break a law. Is there a Law of God that says: "Thou shalt not be deceived"?

"to gather them together to battle"

Is this symbolic or literal? Has the battle happened or about to happen? Does the battle ever happen at all?

Are we supposed to assume stuff and add it into the text like you do?

No where is Gog and Magog interpreted as "wicked sinners". Now if they were born wicked sinners, then yes. If they were not born wicked sinners, then no. The term has never implied "the wicked". The term has implied a foreign nation or those from remote parts of the earth.

The historical view was that Gog and Magog in ancient times used to reside in what is today part of modern day Turkey. But they were never considered people having a land nation but moved around as nomads migrating here and there. Even Abraham was considered one who kept moving from one area to another who never settled down, even though God promised him many nations would come from him with their own land they would form a nation on. Abraham was born a sinner. His nomadic lifestyle did not define him as a sinner.

Being deceived by Satan does not even make one a wicked sinner. Disobedience to God makes one a wicked sinner. Many Premil are wrong claiming wicked sinners are continually being born throughout the Millennium who need to be redeemed. But Satan would not have to even deceive wicked sinners, they are already deceived by Satan. Wicked sinners are the result of Satan deceiving Eve, which resulted in Adam to successfully choose to disobey God.

Adam and Eve were not wicked sinners prior to nor during this process of deception. Being a wicked sinner was the result of Adam disobeying God. After Adam ate is when physical and spiritual death happened and the offspring of Adam and Eve were "your wicked sinners" via birth. But no wicked sinners are ever mentioned in Revelation 20, because no wicked sinners were ever born during nor after the Day of the Lord. Those deceived by Satan were consumed by fire before they ever disobeyed God. No battle is mentioned as taking place. No one was recorded as dying because of a battle. This is not the battle of Armageddon.

Even at Armageddon it was not wicked sinners fighting wicked sinners. It was Jesus removing the last of Adam's dead offspring, who you would consider "wicked sinners". Those at Armageddon were defending Jerusalem and Satan's throne of authority for the last 42 months. They did not march across the breadth of the earth to do battle with the camp of the saints nor the beloved city. They were not consumed by fire. They were left as corpse for bird feed. The ones coming for battle were not deceived by Satan to do battle. The army was from Heaven led by Jesus as King taking back His throne from Satan. Where in Revelation 20 does it state Satan ruled the earth from Jerusalem, and he was gathering an army to fight Jesus coming from heaven? Jerusalem was being defended in both chapters, but you have the approaching armies the same, when in Revelation 19 is was totally opposite from Revelation 20.

It is you who symbolizes away what is literally happening on the earth.

Perhaps. I cant agree with what you say though. The 1000 year millenium is literal and it clearly shown to be literal in scripture.

Using your logic, there would be unfulfilled prophecies. What's after the day of the Lord? The great white throne judgment? So is that when Israel gets to expand their borders all the way to the Euphrates river? Israel has never been that big. So tell us when that happens? Is it on the day of the Lord? How long do they get their borders that big, one day? No. (They get their borders expanded for 1000 years. Unless you can tell us when that happens?

Also, when do the meek inherit the earth? Because they havent inherited anything yet!

 

[WPM]

Perhaps. I cant agree with what you say though. The 1000 year millenium is literal and it clearly shown to be literal in scripture.

Using your logic, there would be unfulfilled prophecies. What's after the day of the Lord? The great white throne judgment? So is that when Israel gets to expand their borders all the way to the Euphrates river? Israel has never been that big. So tell us when that happens? Is it on the day of the Lord? How long do they get their borders that big, one day? No. (They get their borders expanded for 1000 years. Unless you can tell us when that happens?

Also, when do the meek inherit the earth? Because they havent inherited anything yet!

Premil force a lot into Revelation 20 that does not exist there. It is pure speculation. Anyway, Israel took their ancient borders that God promised in Joshua.

 

[WPM]

Perhaps. I cant agree with what you say though. The 1000 year millenium is literal and it clearly shown to be literal in scripture.

Using your logic, there would be unfulfilled prophecies. What's after the day of the Lord? The great white throne judgment? So is that when Israel gets to expand their borders all the way to the Euphrates river? Israel has never been that big. So tell us when that happens? Is it on the day of the Lord? How long do they get their borders that big, one day? No. (They get their borders expanded for 1000 years. Unless you can tell us when that happens?

Also, when do the meek inherit the earth? Because they havent inherited anything yet!

Re the “one hour” that the beast reigns with the “ten kings” in Revelation 17:12, is that sixty minutes?

Premil has the meek and the wicked inheriting a future millennial earth.

 

[WPM]

I am premil. This may or may not sound twilight zone, but Our God is the one who tells the end from the beginning, right?

So in order to decode Revelation we have to go to the OT in earnest and everything is sorta laid out as types and shadows of what is to come. I admit I havent studied Revelation for a while now. I'm in Exodus with Moses and Aaron.

It is all in there I would think. I'm aware that there is some debate about the Chronological order of Revelation and remember seeing a lot of symbolism in Revelation. The books of the Prophets decode some of revelation.

These two economies couldn’t be more diverse. The improvement is obvious, substantial and indisputable. The repercussions are even greater for mankind. What was long-anticipated by the old covenant prophets has now wonderfully arrived. The appearance of Israel’s Messiah was the pivotal moment in history and the catalyst for a colossal transformative change.

The book of Hebrews shows the abolition of the old covenant arrangement and its replacement by the new superior covenant. It is absorbed with the superiority of Christ. Hebrews 8:6 declares: “now hath he [Christ] obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.”

The old covenant is gone forever. It has been replaced by a new and better covenant. There is absolutely no distinction between Jew and Gentile today in Christ. The old is defunct. What is more, there is not one single teaching from Christ, Paul, Peter or any of the New Testament writers that remotely suggests the Old Testament land promises, ordinances or traditions lasted any longer than the cross. The focus is Christ’s redemptive work, and the scope is extended to the world.

We see a significant move:

• From the shadow and type to the substance and reality
• From the imperfect to the perfect
• From the inadequate to the all-sufficient.
• From the physical to the spiritual
• From the external to the internal
• From the natural to the supernatural
• From the temporary to the eternal
• From the earthly to the heavenly
• From the national to the international
• From the conditional to the unconditional

 

[WPM]

What wicked? That is Strongs definition. So you are claiming Strongs is "literalizing the figurative, and spiritualized what is figurative" whatever that means, as you keep making up that excuse.

You are not taking context into consideration because your thousand years in not literal. If the Day of the Lord is actually thousands of years as you keep insisting, there will be hundreds of billions of perfect humans ripe to be deceieved by Satan. But no one is wicked. That is your own made up scenario.

After the Day of the Lord ends, those are literal people as symbolized by the symbolic terms Magog and Gog. Or do you think the humans are symbolic of dead people and the wicked are literally people come back from the dead in your scenario?

Gog and Magog represent those people in the remotest locations. As they are the last few generations, and who Satan targets with his deception. Obviously Satan does not attempt to deceive the camp of the saints. Even you don't take this as a literal nation of today. No one would believe you. They also don't symbolize "wicked sinners". That would be like you saying Russia is a group of "wicked sinners", and America is a group of "God's elect". That is not how symbolism works.

Yes, Egypt has symbolized the world. Babylon has symbolized a one world governmental system. Gog and Magog just symbolizes a foreign influence that gathers together other nations besides themselves for a purpose of war. All of humanity are born wicked sinners. That does not need to be symbolized by a national term. That is understood in Adam as mankind. One would not even use the term "Garden of Eden" as symbolizing "wicked sinners", even though that is where sin started, obviously because God would not let sin enter the Garden/Paradise. So why would you keep insisting that God would let sin, much less "wicked sinners" into the Day of the Lord?

How can a wicked person be deceived if the point is to turn that person into a wicked sinner?

Those humans are not even sinners until they break a law. Is there a Law of God that says: "Thou shalt not be deceived"?

"to gather them together to battle"

Is this symbolic or literal? Has the battle happened or about to happen? Does the battle ever happen at all?

Are we supposed to assume stuff and add it into the text like you do?

No where is Gog and Magog interpreted as "wicked sinners". Now if they were born wicked sinners, then yes. If they were not born wicked sinners, then no. The term has never implied "the wicked". The term has implied a foreign nation or those from remote parts of the earth.

The historical view was that Gog and Magog in ancient times used to reside in what is today part of modern day Turkey. But they were never considered people having a land nation but moved around as nomads migrating here and there. Even Abraham was considered one who kept moving from one area to another who never settled down, even though God promised him many nations would come from him with their own land they would form a nation on. Abraham was born a sinner. His nomadic lifestyle did not define him as a sinner.

Being deceived by Satan does not even make one a wicked sinner. Disobedience to God makes one a wicked sinner. Many Premil are wrong claiming wicked sinners are continually being born throughout the Millennium who need to be redeemed. But Satan would not have to even deceive wicked sinners, they are already deceived by Satan. Wicked sinners are the result of Satan deceiving Eve, which resulted in Adam to successfully choose to disobey God.

Adam and Eve were not wicked sinners prior to nor during this process of deception. Being a wicked sinner was the result of Adam disobeying God. After Adam ate is when physical and spiritual death happened and the offspring of Adam and Eve were "your wicked sinners" via birth. But no wicked sinners are ever mentioned in Revelation 20, because no wicked sinners were ever born during nor after the Day of the Lord. Those deceived by Satan were consumed by fire before they ever disobeyed God. No battle is mentioned as taking place. No one was recorded as dying because of a battle. This is not the battle of Armageddon.

Even at Armageddon it was not wicked sinners fighting wicked sinners. It was Jesus removing the last of Adam's dead offspring, who you would consider "wicked sinners". Those at Armageddon were defending Jerusalem and Satan's throne of authority for the last 42 months. They did not march across the breadth of the earth to do battle with the camp of the saints nor the beloved city. They were not consumed by fire. They were left as corpse for bird feed. The ones coming for battle were not deceived by Satan to do battle. The army was from Heaven led by Jesus as King taking back His throne from Satan. Where in Revelation 20 does it state Satan ruled the earth from Jerusalem, and he was gathering an army to fight Jesus coming from heaven? Jerusalem was being defended in both chapters, but you have the approaching armies the same, when in Revelation 19 is was totally opposite from Revelation 20.

It is you who symbolizes away what is literally happening on the earth.

I have been asking you for years for you to give me Scripture to support your claim that "the day of the Lord" is literally "one thousand years," and you are yet to present any support. That is because it does not exist. It is an invention in your own head.

 

[Timtofly]

I have been asking you for years for you to give me Scripture to support your claim that "the day of the Lord" is literally "one thousand years," and you are yet to present any support. That is because it does not exist. It is an invention in your own head.

Peter told you not to be ignorant in 2 Peter 3, but you keep changing Peter's message to fit your own human imaginations.

 

[WPM]

Peter told you not to be ignorant in 2 Peter 3, but you keep changing Peter's message to fit your own human imaginations.

You don't quote the said text because you add unto its wording and twist it to fit your own taught teaching. Quote it if you feel so confident.

 

[Timtofly]

You don't quote the said text because you add unto its wording and twist it to fit your own taught teaching. Quote it if you feel so confident.

Quote it if you feel it does not say how I read it word for word.

The Day of the Lord is coming, so the Day of the Lord cannot be the last 2 millennia.

You are the one stretching out the length of the Day of the Lord, not me. You claim it already happened and is happening.

 

[WPM]

Quote it if you feel it does not say how I read it word for word.

The Day of the Lord is coming, so the Day of the Lord cannot be the last 2 millennia.

You are the one stretching out the length of the Day of the Lord, not me. You claim it already happened and is happening.

You keep pushing this error even though it has been refuted times by posters. You prefer to add unto Scripture.

2 Peter 3:3-15 tells us: “there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, And saying, Where is the promise of His coming (parousia)? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless. And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation.”

We glean a lot of helpful detail here relating to what happens to the creature and creation when Jesus comes, and what immediately follows. If we are able to divorce ourselves from what we have been taught, we are looking at a very climactic picture.

• Unquestionably, the focus of this message is directed to the end-time-cynics who question God.
• These fools question God keeping His “promise.” What promise? It is “the promise of His coming.”
• The scorn and derision of these foolish last days scoffers and mockers are directed specifically towards the reality and occurrence of Christ’s future Advent in glory.
• The time period mentioned (a thousand years) relates to a long period of assumed delay before the coming of Christ, not some supposed time period after it.
• It is not in any way concentrated upon a supposed group of ‘millennial scoffers’ 1,000 years later. If this is supposed to be a collection of ‘millennial scoffers’ 1,000 years after the second coming, why would they be saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation”? Such a notion is a complete absurdity as Christ’s coming (or parousia) is long past.
• This text shows us that today is the only day of salvation. Peter responds to the mockers scoffing at the apparent delay in Christ's return: “the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation” (2 Peter 3:15). Romans 2:4 reaffirms that salvation is limited to this side of the second coming.
• The actual wrath described by the Holy Spirit comes suddenly and unexpectedly upon these foolish last days scoffers and mockers. There is no escape. They are the recipients of total destruction.
• We also see in this reading that “the day of the Lord will arrive (or heko) as a thief in the night; in the which (en heé)” or literally translated “in which” (the word “the” being absent from the original). The detail described arrives with Jesus.
• What happens to creation when Jesus arrives? 1. The heavens shall pass away / perish with a great noise. 2. The elements shall be ‘loosed by being set on fire’, 3. The earth shall be ‘burned up utterly / consumed wholly. 4. The works that are within the earth shall be ‘burned up utterly / consumed wholly. The Premillennialist claims to be a literalist, so there is no spiritualization that can explain this away. It is water-tight.
• The description of the destruction could not be more comprehensive. It is undoubtedly the end. It involves wholesale and unavoidable annihilation for the wicked. It embraces the full gamut of fallen creation.
• What is this replaced with? A future millennium filled with sin and sinners, deception and being deceived, crying and dying? No. The Holy Spirit tells us that it the “new heavens and a new earth” that follows Christ’s return.
• The arrival of the “new heavens and a new earth” are here significantly connected to “his promise.”
• The Holy Spirit then assures the last days elect that their lot is not wrath or destruction. They experience the new heavens and new earth at His appearing.

 

[Timtofly]

The earth shall be ‘burned up utterly / consumed wholly.

This is you adding to the Word of God. You have yet to explain how I add to the Word of God.

You keep accusing me in some vague sort of accusation, but have nothing to actually point out. The earth is not removed from existence at the point of the Second Coming. You have no verse that even expresses that point. You think 2 Peter 3:10 implies your point.

"Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,"

Everything but the earth is dissolved as pertaining to humanity. Here is the corroboration. 1 Corinthians 3:12-15

"Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire."

Paul is saying the same thing Peter is saying. Humans are not burned up, neither the earth. What is burned up is the work and ideology humans have created around them, but their physical bodies will be spared.

I understand that you want to equate 1 Corinthians 15:28 and Revelation 20:11 into that "last moment" you think Peter is talking about.

"And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all."

"And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them."

But Peter just explained that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and that a thousand years is as one day. Then states the Day of the Lord comes. Peter does not say the Day of the Lord ends the earth. The day of the Lord, as a thousand years, comes like a thief in the night. A thousand years comes as a thief in the night. Peter is not saying there will be a thousand years of destruction. The coming of that day is in fire and quick destruction in a baptism of fire. The coming of the day reveals the works that are burned and the one's remaining.

The Day of the Lord cannot start until the regeneration happens. The regeneration cannot happen until Adam's punishment is taken away. That is the climactic end of human flesh born into Adam's fallen image.

Jesus states both in Matthew 13 and in Matthew 25 that Jesus and the angels are on the earth at this time. So the earth is not burned up per your false imagined scenario.

"He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear."

How is Jesus sowing seed on the earth without being physically present on the earth which is His kingdom at that point? Jesus was physically present as Messiah the Christ. Jesus will be physically present as the Prince to come, the King of all nations.

"When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:"

Jesus is currently sitting with God. Matthew states at the the Second Coming, then seated on a throne on the earth. Matthew is not saying Jesus is currently seated, but will be seated in the future on the earth as King over the nations. These verses are not reality that flashes for a mere twinkling of an eye, and then over.

There is time on the earth after the Second Coming while the angels are gathering the final harvest, after the baptism of fire that dissolved all of man's works while leaving humans to be judged by Jesus as to their eternal state of being. Not physically dead humans, but humans physically alive on the earth. That is how the Day of the Lord comes. But the Day of the Lord is the full realization of Daniel 9:24. Peter was still looking for the new heavens and earth as the fulfillment of Daniel 9:24, years after the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

"Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness."

"To finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy."

The righteousness cannot be the state of the earth until all unrighteousness has been removed.

You state the 7th Trumpet is the end of time itself. When John writes it is the end of the mystery.

"But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets."

The Second Coming is before the final harvest. The 7th Trumpet declares the final harvest complete, over, time is up.

Time should be finished unless the 7th Trumpet is interrupted by 42 months given to Satan in the midst of the week of the 7th Trumpet.

 

[WPM]

This is you adding to the Word of God. You have yet to explain how I add to the Word of God.

You keep accusing me in some vague sort of accusation, but have nothing to actually point out. The earth is not removed from existence at the point of the Second Coming. You have no verse that even expresses that point. You think 2 Peter 3:10 implies your point.

"Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,"

Everything but the earth is dissolved as pertaining to humanity. Here is the corroboration. 1 Corinthians 3:12-15

"Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire."

Paul is saying the same thing Peter is saying. Humans are not burned up, neither the earth. What is burned up is the work and ideology humans have created around them, but their physical bodies will be spared.

I understand that you want to equate 1 Corinthians 15:28 and Revelation 20:11 into that "last moment" you think Peter is talking about.

"And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all."

"And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them."

But Peter just explained that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and that a thousand years is as one day. Then states the Day of the Lord comes. Peter does not say the Day of the Lord ends the earth. The day of the Lord, as a thousand years, comes like a thief in the night. A thousand years comes as a thief in the night. Peter is not saying there will be a thousand years of destruction. The coming of that day is in fire and quick destruction in a baptism of fire. The coming of the day reveals the works that are burned and the one's remaining.

The Day of the Lord cannot start until the regeneration happens. The regeneration cannot happen until Adam's punishment is taken away. That is the climactic end of human flesh born into Adam's fallen image.

Jesus states both in Matthew 13 and in Matthew 25 that Jesus and the angels are on the earth at this time. So the earth is not burned up per your false imagined scenario.

"He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear."

How is Jesus sowing seed on the earth without being physically present on the earth which is His kingdom at that point? Jesus was physically present as Messiah the Christ. Jesus will be physically present as the Prince to come, the King of all nations.

"When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:"

Jesus is currently sitting with God. Matthew states at the the Second Coming, then seated on a throne on the earth. Matthew is not saying Jesus is currently seated, but will be seated in the future on the earth as King over the nations. These verses are not reality that flashes for a mere twinkling of an eye, and then over.

There is time on the earth after the Second Coming while the angels are gathering the final harvest, after the baptism of fire that dissolved all of man's works while leaving humans to be judged by Jesus as to their eternal state of being. Not physically dead humans, but humans physically alive on the earth. That is how the Day of the Lord comes. But the Day of the Lord is the full realization of Daniel 9:24. Peter was still looking for the new heavens and earth as the fulfillment of Daniel 9:24, years after the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

"Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness."

"To finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy."

The righteousness cannot be the state of the earth until all unrighteousness has been removed.

You state the 7th Trumpet is the end of time itself. When John writes it is the end of the mystery.

"But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets."

The Second Coming is before the final harvest. The 7th Trumpet declares the final harvest complete, over, time is up.

Time should be finished unless the 7th Trumpet is interrupted by 42 months given to Satan in the midst of the week of the 7th Trumpet.

Until you see the error of the chronological, non-corroborative, hyper-literal approach to apocalyptic teaching, you will never see what Rev 20 teaches.

 

[Timtofly]

Until you see the error of the chronological, non-corroborative, hyper-literal approach to apocalyptic teaching, you will never see what Rev 20 teaches.

Still vague assertions and an all out avoidance of any proof.

 

[WPM]

Still vague assertions and an all out avoidance of any proof.

Premillennialism hangs its doctrine on a very precarious frayed thread: that of Revelation 20 following Revelation 19 chronologically in time. To hold this, it has to dismiss the different recaps (or different camera views pertaining to the intra-Advent period) that exist throughout the book of Revelation, divorce their opinion of these 2 chapters from repeated Scripture on this matter and also explain away the clear and explicit climactic detail that pertains to Revelation 19. Revelation 19 depicts the end of the world where all surviving mortal life is destroyed - "the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great." Premillennialists conveniently refuse to take this literal because it exposes their thesis.

Disprove the chronology between Revelation 19 and Revelation 20 and Premillennialism falls apart.

 

[Timtofly]

Premillennialism hangs its doctrine on a very precarious frayed thread: that of Revelation 20 following Revelation 19 chronologically in time. To hold this, it has to dismiss the different recaps (or different camera views pertaining to the intra-Advent period) that exist throughout the book of Revelation, divorce their opinion of these 2 chapters from repeated Scripture on this matter and also explain away the clear and explicit climactic detail that pertains to Revelation 19. Revelation 19 depicts the end of the world where all surviving mortal life is destroyed - "the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great." Premillennialists conveniently refuse to take this literal because it exposes their thesis.

Disprove the chronology between Revelation 19 and Revelation 20 and Premillennialism falls apart.

Revelation 20 coming after Revelation 19 is the only way John wrote the book.

Now you change John's writing, and attempt to add human opinion called recapitulation.
You are still avoiding the points of the Second Coming, and keep giving us your opinion, instead of God's Word.

Saying Revelation 19 depicts the end of the world is you adding to the text, which John forbids. The actual end is expressly stated in Revelation 20. It is not stated in Revelation 19, because there is only a solid continuation of thought between Revelation 19 and Revelation 20. You have to actually change God's Word to remove that thought, that you exaggerate with your human opinion: "a very precarious frayed thread."

That statement shows you doubt God's Word and will post anything to change God's Word to suit your human bias and understanding. Even Satan can quote Scripture to get one to doubt the Word of God. Portraying Scripture as weak and untrustworthy is not a very great foundation to base one's human ideology on.

So you can continue to disprove God's Word and we will see how far your human imagination can take us.

 

[WPM]

Revelation 20 coming after Revelation 19 is the only way John wrote the book.

Now you change John's writing, and attempt to add human opinion called recapitulation.
You are still avoiding the points of the Second Coming, and keep giving us your opinion, instead of God's Word.

Saying Revelation 19 depicts the end of the world is you adding to the text, which John forbids. The actual end is expressly stated in Revelation 20. It is not stated in Revelation 19, because there is only a solid continuation of thought between Revelation 19 and Revelation 20. You have to actually change God's Word to remove that thought, that you exaggerate with your human opinion: "a very precarious frayed thread."

That statement shows you doubt God's Word and will post anything to change God's Word to suit your human bias and understanding. Even Satan can quote Scripture to get one to doubt the Word of God. Portraying Scripture as weak and untrustworthy is not a very great foundation to base one's human ideology on.

So you can continue to disprove God's Word and we will see how far your human imagination can take us.

Anyone who disagrees with you and your opinions seems to be deceived. Yea, right?

Revelation 19 is a picture of the glorious return of Christ. Jesus comes in majesty and power to execute judgment upon all. The all-consuming nature of the destruction and the all-inclusive degree of the judgment described in Revelation 19 fits with multiple Scripture that indicate that all the wicked will be destroyed at the appearing of Christ at the end. He destroys His enemies with the sword of His mouth – His very command. This is the power of His Word. His judgment cannot be thwarted or avoided.

Revelation 19 is the end of the world. All flesh is destroyed in that chapter. There is no one left to inhabit a future Premillennialist millennium. This is another text that forbids Premil.

 

[Timtofly]

Anyone who disagrees with you and your opinions seems to be deceived. Yea, right?

Revelation 19 is a picture of the glorious return of Christ. Jesus comes in majesty and power to execute judgment upon all. The all-consuming nature of the destruction and the all-inclusive degree of the judgment described in Revelation 19 fits with multiple Scripture that indicate that all the wicked will be destroyed at the appearing of Christ at the end. He destroys His enemies with the sword of His mouth – His very command. This is the power of His Word. His judgment cannot be thwarted or avoided.

Revelation 19 is the end of the world. All flesh is destroyed in that chapter. There is no one left to inhabit a future Premillennialist millennium. This is another text that forbids Premil.

You have a verse other than Revelation 19 that corroborates not a single human is left after the Second Coming?

No one is redeemed per your interpretation?

 

[WPM]

You have a verse other than Revelation 19 that corroborates not a single human is left after the Second Coming?

No one is redeemed per your interpretation?

Jesus said in Luke 17:26-30, “as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.”

The plain focus of this teaching in Luke 17 (reference Noah and Lot’s day) is the nature and degree of the judgment that befell the wicked in these two familiar Old Testament stories and especially the extent of that particular wrath. The key element and major emphasis of this discourse is the fact (speaking of the ungodly) that God “destroyed them all.” The comprehensive destruction of the wicked in both of these examples is the important lesson of the narrative; both the whole world of Noah’s day and the whole individual city of Sodom in Lot’s day saw the immediate and complete rescue of the entire righteous coupled together with the immediate and complete destruction of the entire wicked.

Christ plainly and purposefully advanced these two days, where the righteous were graciously rescued just prior to the full annihilation of the wicked, in order to vividly portray the nature and scope of the day of His wrath at the second coming. He deliberates and graphically connected the happenings of both these former days of judgment to the day of His return. Jesus succinctly said, “Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed” (Luke 17:30).

After speaking of the “days of Noe” and the “days of Lot,” the Lord then describes a singular “day” when the righteous were rescued and the wicked were destroyed. Whilst the Lord presents the rebellion and debauchery that preceded both of these judgments as a sign of how things will exist prior to the day of His all-consummating appearing, the main focus of His teaching relates to the focus and scale of the wrath which did fall on these two solemn days of destruction and how they accurately reflect what will happen at the second coming. Both individually and jointly, they supply us with a stunning insight into the nature of the actual day that Christ’s returns and to the days that precede His glorious second coming. In their substance and importance these two Old Testament days are distinct and unique. And whilst the nature of the judgment and geographical extent of both appreciably varies, brought-together, they graphically represent (1) the type of catastrophe coming, and (2) the scale of the destruction at the end. Scripture nowhere separates in time the gathering of the Lord's people to Himself with the destruction of the wicked.

Matthew 13:39-43: “the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world [Gr. aion or age]. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear. "

This passage isn’t compatible with the Premill kingdom view. Regardless of what Premil says: the new earth shall free from “all things that offend, and them which do iniquity.” There are no wicked left or qualified to inherit a future millennial earth.

Matthew 13:49 says, "So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just, And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth."

This passage isn’t compatible with the Premill kingdom view. Because in the Premil paradigm, the wicked are not ‘severed from among the just’; but are in fact allowed to thrive among them or at least be subjugated underneath them until they later arise and rebel against the righteous as a mammoth wicked army at the end of the Premill kingdom as the sands of the seas.

Jesus said, in Matthew 25:31-34, 41, 46, “when the son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: and he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world … then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels … and these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.”

This passage isn’t compatible with the Premill kingdom view. For the Premill kingdom has an earthly kingdom with an ‘open borders policy’ where the goats are scattered throughout it for the duration of 1000-years.

1 Thessalonians 4:15-5:3 confirms this saying: “we which are alive and remain unto the coming [Gr. parousia] of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words. But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.”

This coming is not only sudden but noisy. Christ is not coming secretly with an apologetic whisper but publicly with a triumphant shout. He appears with “with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God.” This trumpet will sound and bring forth the elect from all nations. I Thessalonians 5:2-7 confirms that it isn’t just Christ’s Advent in glory that is sudden but also the destruction that accompanies. Likening Christ’s return to “a thief in the night” capably serves to impress the surprising nature of His coming for the lost. It shows that the wicked are caught abruptly in their folly at the apocalypse. The “sudden destruction” is so impactful that none escape. That is explicit in the narrative. The wicked are totally and completely destroyed, allowing no room for the Pretrib theory of a subsequent 7yrs trib.

II Thessalonians 1:4-10 records: “we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure: Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer: Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.”

The Holy Spirit could hardly have made this more water-tight: men either know God or they don't. To know God is eternal life (John 17:3). This was also the case in Noah and Lot's day. Nothing has changed. If humans know Him, they are rescued at His return, if they do not know Him, they are destroyed. Simple! Premils have no problems with this reality when it comes to Noah and Lot's day. They only get awkward and pedantic when it comes to the second coming, because it negates their doctrine. They feel the need to diminish the scale and timing of the destruction in order to populate their alleged future millennial earth.

 

[WPM]

You have a verse other than Revelation 19 that corroborates not a single human is left after the Second Coming?

No one is redeemed per your interpretation?

2 Peter 3:3-13 couldn't be clearer: “Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, And saying, Where is the promise of His coming [Gr. parousia]? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.”

How can anyone survive this? They do not!

The sixth seal is the end of the world. It sees the change from time to eternity. It totally demolishes the Premillennial scheme. It shows the conflagration and the destruction of all the wicked. This relays the Amil position. Let us look at the text in Revelation 6:12-17, says, “And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; and the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?”

This is the time of God's final wrath upon the earth. The wicked are so afraid of their impending doom that they want the mountains and rocks to fall on them. Think about this: being crushed by mountains and rocks appeals more to them than facing God's wrath. No wicked will survive this.

Once again, this text finishes with a rhetorical question. The obvious answer (to those who do not have their own theological agenda) is that no one will survive this climatic event.

Revelation 6:12-17 depicts the conflagration that accompanies the return of Christ. It sees the regeneration of this earth and the destruction of all the wicked. This agrees with multiple Scripture.

· The sun became black
· The moon became as blood
· The stars of heaven fell unto the earth,
· The heaven departs like a scroll
· Every mountain and island are moved out of their places

This is talking about the topography of the physical earth and starry host being totally transformed. This occurs at the climactic return of Christ.

Scripture shows Jesus one and only coming to be totally climactic. When Jesus comes that is it - caught up or caught on, saved or lost, eternal bliss or eternal torment. It is the end. No one survives (see above).

 

[Timtofly]

After speaking of the “days of Noe” and the “days of Lot,” the Lord then describes a singular “day” when the righteous were rescued and the wicked were destroyed.

Noah was left on the earth. Lot was still alive after Sodom. You don't have any corroboration that not a single human is left on the earth. Those verses corroborate that God still has plans for redeemed humans on the earth after the Second Coming.

You agree that the wicked are all destroyed. But then you insert your opinion that not a single human can be found on the earth. Your verses corroborate that redeemed humans can be found on the earth during the Day of the Lord after the total destruction of the wicked.

The redeemed survive the baptism of fire because they walk through the fire like the three Hebrews in the fiery furnace. Satan's Babylonian empire cannot destroy those redeemed from the earth.

Once again, this text finishes with a rhetorical question. The obvious answer (to those who do not have their own theological agenda) is that no one will survive this climatic event.

The answer is in Revelation 16:15

"Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame."

There is one difference between Noah and Lot, and those redeemed after the Second Coming. Those after the Second Coming are changed out of their dead corruptible flesh. Noah and Lot still had to deal with their dead corruptible flesh. That flesh is destroyed and removed along with sin at the Second Coming. So, many will be saved and inherit the earth, despite your objections to the future Day of the Lord.

Once again the 6th Seal is not the end of the world. Neither is the 7th Seal. Neither are the first 6 Trumpets that happen after the 7th Seal is opened. The 144k are still on the earth and will be for a while after the 6th Seal. Those stars in the 6th Seal are the angels coming to earth to gather the final harvest. Matthew 13 and Matthew 25. The term star and angel are used interchangeably throughout the book of Revelation.

In fact Zechariah 14 is describing the same event as the 6th Seal. You know, the chapter you explain away as geographically changing the earth in the first century?

This is talking about the topography of the physical earth and starry host being totally transformed. This occurs at the climactic return of Christ.

I agree, and so is Zechariah 14. When those angels leave their post as the stars and are on the earth, there will not be any star light for a while. Just think how overpopulated the earth will be with trillions of stars transporting humans around, because obviously all human technology and works were all burned up physically and literally.

You preach everything and every being is gone. But do you consider that John states they are all on the earth when the 7th Seal is opened, and there is literal silence in heaven for half an hour? And then the Trumpets start sounding and chaos erupts on the earth over and over for more than just a day.

Many posters deny those pre-trib rapture proclaimers their escape clause. You teach the end happens before the 7th Seal is even opened, and forget the 7 Trumpets. You have this weird time travel interpretation, that the Trumpets take us back to the first century.

 

[WPM]

Noah was left on the earth. Lot was still alive after Sodom. You don't have any corroboration that not a single human is left on the earth. Those verses corroborate that God still has plans for redeemed humans on the earth after the Second Coming.

You agree that the wicked are all destroyed. But then you insert your opinion that not a single human can be found on the earth. Your verses corroborate that redeemed humans can be found on the earth during the Day of the Lord after the total destruction of the wicked.

The redeemed survive the baptism of fire because they walk through the fire like the three Hebrews in the fiery furnace. Satan's Babylonian empire cannot destroy those redeemed from the earth.



The answer is in Revelation 16:15

"Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame."

There is one difference between Noah and Lot, and those redeemed after the Second Coming. Those after the Second Coming are changed out of their dead corruptible flesh. Noah and Lot still had to deal with their dead corruptible flesh. That flesh is destroyed and removed along with sin at the Second Coming. So, many will be saved and inherit the earth, despite your objections to the future Day of the Lord.

Once again the 6th Seal is not the end of the world. Neither is the 7th Seal. Neither are the first 6 Trumpets that happen after the 7th Seal is opened. The 144k are still on the earth and will be for a while after the 6th Seal. Those stars in the 6th Seal are the angels coming to earth to gather the final harvest. Matthew 13 and Matthew 25. The term star and angel are used interchangeably throughout the book of Revelation.

In fact Zechariah 14 is describing the same event as the 6th Seal. You know, the chapter you explain away as geographically changing the earth in the first century?



I agree, and so is Zechariah 14. When those angels leave their post as the stars and are on the earth, there will not be any star light for a while. Just think how overpopulated the earth will be with trillions of stars transporting humans around, because obviously all human technology and works were all burned up physically and literally.

You preach everything and every being is gone. But do you consider that John states they are all on the earth when the 7th Seal is opened, and there is literal silence in heaven for half an hour? And then the Trumpets start sounding and chaos erupts on the earth over and over for more than just a day.

Many posters deny those pre-trib rapture proclaimers their escape clause. You teach the end happens before the 7th Seal is even opened, and forget the 7 Trumpets. You have this weird time travel interpretation, that the Trumpets take us back to the first century.

Your understanding of Zechariah 14 is as mistaken as your understanding of Revelation 20. You refuse to correlate them because you cannot.