One Spirit

[Johann]

@Johann A searching question for us all....

I fully concur @farouk and I include myself in that 'searching question'

 

[Johann]

This is a mystery...how both Father and Son share one Holy Spirit.

God is One.

But one what?

God is One Holy Spirit. God IS Spirit.

Does that mean that the Holy Spirit is a separate person?

Of course not.

There is no Trinity....there is a Godhead (Elohim) of both Father and Son. That's it!

A Godhead...that's biblical...a Trinity is Roman Catholic teaching that was invented to control people. No need to seek baptism in the Spirit if you are already baptized in a "trinity." But there is no power in the church that does this.

Instead we need for God's Spirit to truly empower us...and guide us into life. No need to control the faith of others by a outward religious straitjacket. No need for an ecclesiastical hierarchy that pretends to represent God WITHOUT God's presence.

No need for an outward dogmatic religion that avoids God's presence and power.

We need to enter into the love and presence of God by His Spirit to have fellowship with both the Father AND the Son.

It's time to abandon catholic Sunday school dogmas that take the life and power away from the Church.

What say you?

First of all, the "Triune Godhead" didn't start with early Christianity.

Too many examples to be found in Scripture re the Triune Theotes

What say you @Episkopos?

J.

 

[Johann]

Scripture says that the Son has is own spirit and shares the Father's spirit, his Holy Spirit!

Yes? Quote the scripture that says that.
J.

 

[Johann]

Then we have Matthew 3:16-17 which says - As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting on him. 17 And a voice from heaven said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.”

Luke 3:21-22 confirms this with - 21 When all the people were being baptized, Jesus was baptized too. And as he was praying, heaven was opened 22 and the Holy Spirit descended on him in bodily form like a dove. And a voice came from heaven: “You are my Son, whom I love; with you I am well pleased.”

Descended (katabēnai). Same construction as the preceding infinitive.
The Holy Ghost (to pneuma to hagion). The Holy Spirit. Mar_1:10 has merely the Spirit (to pneuma) while Mat_3:16 has the Spirit of God (pneuma theou).
In a bodily form (sōmatikōi eidei). Alone in Luke who has also “as a dove” (hōs peristeran) like Matthew and Mark.

This probably means that the Baptist saw the vision that looked like a dove. Nothing is gained by denying the fact or possibility of the vision that looked like a dove. God manifests his power as he will. The symbolism of the dove for the Holy Spirit is intelligible.

We are not to understand that this was the beginning of the Incarnation of Christ as the Cerinthian Gnostics held. But this fresh influx of the Holy Spirit may have deepened the Messianic consciousness of Jesus and certainly revealed him to the Baptist as God’s Son.
And a voice came out of heaven (kai phōnēn ex ouranou genesthai). Same construction of infinitive with accusative of general reference.

The voice of the Father to the Son is given here as in Mar_1:11, which see, and Mat_3:17 for discussion of the variation there. The Trinity here manifest themselves at the baptism of Jesus which constitutes the formal entrance of Jesus upon his Messianic ministry. He enters upon it with the Father’s blessing and approval and with the power of the Holy Spirit upon him.

The deity of Christ here appears in plain form in the Synoptic Gospels. The consciousness of Christ is as clear on this point here as in the Gospel of John where the Baptist describes him after his baptism as the Son of God (Joh_1:34).

Our brother Paul...

1Ti_1:16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.

J.

 

[Episkopos]

First of all, the "Triune Godhead" didn't start with early Christianity.

Too many examples to be found in Scripture re the Triune Theotes

What say you @Episkopos?

J.

Eusebius was very respected as a man of God in his time. He was in the minority who stood against the tampering of scripture for the "sake of" men's governance over the Church.

Think about it. Who is in control of the Church if you remove the necessity of God's direct intervention? Depending on God takes away man's authority. What ecclesiastical authority is going to admit that?

In the 2nd century the church at Rome decided to change the text to reflect their ecclesiastical position. Surely, God would understand their need to have full authority over their own flocks? !!!

Think about it. The early church was run directly by the Holy Spirit....as in separate for ME Paul and Barnabus. Or else lying before God brought death...Ananias and Saphirra come to mind. Or else, some became sick or died because they didn't discern the Body.

All of this was intolerable for a smooth running religion for the masses. What people wanted was not a holy (and dangerous) assembly. The devil persecuted holiness. People didn't want to suffer persecution if they didn't have to. So the people removed the holiness from the church to bring about a temporal peace with the devil and the world. In return the devil gave the church the legitimacy the church people craved. But they were no longer the Church of God in doing so. They went out from their spiritual covering to have an organizational carnal covering by the temporal powers and the principalities that occupy the places of power over the world.

And so peace with the world was established. And men loved to have it so.

But where is the holiness in the church? Where is the presence and power of God?

Now, the Holy Spirit is seen as a servant of the Church. If God's Spirit will not respond, there are plenty of other spirits that will fill in.

In the end no man has the power or authority to baptize in the name of the Father or of the Spirit, unless they are apostles of the Lord, sent out directly by Him with His power and authority. If there are no apostles then we must reduce the need for a true spiritual authority by reducing the Spirit of God to being on a "name only" basis. Regardless, we (who are not directly given power from heaven) are commanded to baptize in Jesus' name....there is no other name under heaven in which we are to be saved (Acts 4:12).

"Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved."

When Peter and John went to Samaria to lay on hands on the new converts that had "only" been baptized in the name of Jesus...(Acts 8:16)...a demonstration of great power ensued so that Simon the sorcerer sought to purchase that power.

In todays' church no one even believes in that power any more.

I wonder why?!!

Today we have the exact same situation with Christian authorities that Jesus had with the authorities in Judaism. There is nothing new under the sun. We are still reducing God's judgments to having no effect through our traditions.


The final word goes to Luke in the book of Acts...

“When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.” Acts 19:5

 

[Johann]

Eusebius was very respected as a man of God in his time. He was in the minority who stood against the tampering of scripture for the "sake of" men's governance over the Church.

Think about it. Who is in control of the Church if you remove the necessity of God's direct intervention? Depending on God takes away man's authority. What ecclesiastical authority is going to admit that?

In the 2nd century the church at Rome decided to change the text to reflect their ecclesiastical position. Surely, God would understand their need to have full authority over their own flocks? !!!

Think about it. The early church was run directly by the Holy Spirit....as in separate for ME Paul and Barnabus. Or else lying before God brought death...Ananias and Saphirra come to mind. Or else, some became sick or died because they didn't discern the Body.

All of this was intolerable for a smooth running religion for the masses. What people wanted was not a holy (and dangerous) assembly. The devil persecuted holiness. People didn't want to suffer persecution if they didn't have to. So the people removed the holiness from the church to bring about a temporal peace with the devil and the world. In return the devil gave the church the legitimacy the church people craved. But they were no longer the Church of God in doing so. They went out from their spiritual covering to have an organizational carnal covering by the temporal powers and the principalities that occupy the places of power over the world.

And so peace with the world was established. And men loved to have it so.

But where is the holiness in the church? Where is the presence and power of God?

Now, the Holy Spirit is seen as a servant of the Church. If God's Spirit will not respond, there are plenty of other spirits that will fill in.

In the end no man has the power or authority to baptize in the name of the Father or of the Spirit, unless they are apostles of the Lord, sent out directly by Him with His power and authority. If there are no apostles then we must reduce the need for a true spiritual authority by reducing the Spirit of God to being on a "name only" basis. Regardless, we (who are not directly given power from heaven) are commanded to baptize in Jesus' name....there is no other name under heaven in which we are to be saved (Acts 4:12).

When Peter and John went to Samaria to lay on hands on the new converts that had been baptized in the name of Jesus...(Acts 8:16)...a demonstration of great power ensued so that Simon the sorcerer sought to purchase that power.

In todays' church no one even believes in that power any more.

I wonder why?!!

Today we have the exact same situation with Christian authorities that Jesus had with the authorities in Judaism. There is nothing new under the sun. We are still reducing God's judgments to no effect through our traditions.


The final word goes to Luke in the book of Acts...

“When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.” Acts 19:5

What ekklesia are you fellow-shipping with or are you like me, a lone ranger?
J.

 

[Episkopos]

What ekklesia are you fellow-shipping with or are you like me, a lone ranger?
J.

This home fellowship over the last 23 years. Before that various attempts at fellowships that hit dead ends...and before that 10 years in the wilderness of denominationalism.

We refuse to compromise the truth...seeing that God is going to be taking over Creation again soon. It might look like we are "outside" the church but we are simply outside the religious system that acts like a kind of "Matrix" to blind spiritual eyes and stop spiritual ears from believing the truth.

<><

 

[Johann]

This home fellowship over the last 23 years. Before that various attempts at fellowships that hit dead ends...and before that 10 years in the wilderness of denominationalism.

We refuse to compromise the truth...seeing that God is soon going to be taking over Creation again soon. It might look like we are "outside" the church but we are simply outside the religious system that acts like a kind of "Matrix" to blind spiritual eyes and stop spiritual ears from believing the truth.

<><

What 'home fellowship?'
If you are going to say 'Christian Forum...' I would say you are dead wrong
J.

 

[Episkopos]

What 'home fellowship?'
If you are going to say 'Christian Forum...' I would say you are dead wrong
J.

No, here where we live. The home fellowship that I oversee. We have a good support system here among us that encourages us in the Lord.

 

[Johann]

No, here where we live. The home fellowship that I oversee. We have a good support system here among us that encourages us in the Lord.

I would say good for you, here there are no support group 'system' to help the scattered and underground believers.
J.

 

[Episkopos]

I would say good for you, here there are no support group 'system' to help the scattered and underground believers.
J.

Sure there is. We have been given the technology in these last days to speak to one another on zoom and speak on phones. Of course it's not the same as person to person...but it is still a support mechanism that encourages spiritual growth. Getting together in person also comes with other temptations that lead to carnalities. So its a trade-off.

Do people gather for ONLY spiritual considerations? No. With human interaction also comes temporal things.

God has seen to it that we refrain from connecting on temporal things by keeping most of us apart. Regardless, there will always be a few here and there who are faithful to Christ. The main thing is to connect to as many as possible...either in person...OR/AND with others in other places. People also used to travel abroad to visit others. Where there is a will there is a way.

 

[Johann]

Sure there is. We have been given the technology in these last days to speak to one another on zoom and speak on phones. Of course it's not the same as person to person...but it is still a support mechanism that encourages spiritual growth. Getting together in person also comes with other temptations that lead to carnalities. So its a trade-off.

Do people gather for ONLY spiritual considerations? No. With human interaction also comes temporal things.

God has seen to it that we refrain from connecting on temporal things by keeping most of us apart. Regardless, there will always be a few here and there who are faithful to Christ. The main thing is to connect to as many as possible...either in person...OR/AND with others in other places. People also used to travel abroad to visit others. Where there is a will there is a way.

What happened to the good old outreach ministries
What would happen should people not be able to go online, costs money to stay online.
Where is Jesus, in the highways and byways, in the outer areas where the outcasts are..
Hey Bishop?
Somehow I don't think Christ would used technology since technology is also a form of temptation
J.

 

[Episkopos]

What happened to the good old outreach ministries
What would happen should people not be able to go online, costs money to stay online.
Where is Jesus, in the highways and byways, in the outer areas where the outcasts are..
Hey Bishop?
Somehow I don't think Christ would used technology since technology is also a form of temptation
J.

Jesus ate with sinners...even prostitutes. Our Christian communities are not based on spiritual life anymore. But even one disciple who abides in the truth makes everything written in the Bible have support in the world.

 

[farouk]

What ekklesia are you fellow-shipping with or are you like me, a lone ranger?
J.

@Johann Acts 2.42 has a summary of basic local church activities...

 

[Johann]

Jesus ate with sinners...even prostitutes. Our Christian communities are not based on spiritual life anymore. But even one disciple who abides in the truth makes everything written in the Bible have support in the world.

After the resurrection of Christ the wrath of God now abides on these very sinners, many following Christ for the loaves and bread.
J.