One taken, one left

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, all.

This is why it's IMPERATIVE to understand this discourse by piecing together all three accounts IN THE GREEK FIRST and THEN translate it into English!

Brothers and sisters, remember to whom Yeshua` was speaking! He was not talking to us in the future so much; He was talking to the men (and probably women) sitting on the hillside around Him that day! Some think it was just the Twelve, but I don't think so. He had well over 120 disciples at the time, even though many had left Him! (John 6:66; Acts 1:15) Regardless to how many He was speaking, they were all first-century believers.

Therefore, whenever you read the words "ye" or "you" or "your" or "yours" in the KJV, those words refer to MORE THAN ONE INDIVIDUAL IN THE SECOND PERSON! (The singular forms of the second person are "thou," "thee," "thy," and "thine" in the KJV.)

In the Greek, it's the difference between forms of "su" (second person singular) and "humeis" (second person plural). You will find (if you study it out for yourselves) that the pronouns are often in the plural, second person, talking directly to those assembled on the mountain, not to some nebulous "y'all" including those of the future! Occasionally, He "drifts off" to the future as He speaks, but most of the time, He is talking directly to those present. When He does project off into the future, He will use terms that were translated into the Greek in more nebulous terms such as "many" or use the third person.

SO, when He said that which was translated from the Hebrew or Aramaic into the Greek words, (Matt. 24:9) "Tote paradoosousin humas eis thlipsin kai apoktenousin humas kai esesthe misoumenoi hupo pantoon toon ethnoon dia to onoma mou," "Then they-shall-deliver you into pressure and they-shall-kill you and you-shall-be hated under all the nations through the name of-me," for instance, He was talking to those believers in the first century, not people in our present or in our future!

When He said what was translated into the Greek words (Matt. 24:25-28) 'Idou proeireeka humin. Ean oun eipoosin humin, "Idou, en tee ereemoo estin," mee exetheete; "Idou, en tois tameiois," mee pisteuseete; hoosper gar hee astrapee exerchetai apo anatoloon kai fainetai heoos dusmoon, houtoos estai hee parousia tou Huiou tou Anthroopou; hopou ean ee to ptooma, ekei sunachtheesontai hoi aetoi,' 'Look I-told-beforehand to-you. So when they-say to-you, "Look, in the desert He-is," no you-go-out; "Look, in the storage-rooms," no you-believe; like for the lightning issues away-from east and flashes to-the west, so shall-be the coming of-the Son of-the Man; where what-ever is the carcase, there will-be-gathered-together the eagles/vultures,' He was talking to those believers in the first century, not people in our present or in our future!

So, much of what Yeshua` said that day was directed as a warning to those believers in the first century! They were the carrion and the Romans were the vultures!



Now, not everything was about those believers in the first century. When He said what was translated into Greek as (Matt. 24:29-31) "Eutheoos de meta teen thlipsin toon heemeroon ekeinoon ho heelios skotistheesetai kai hee seleenee ou doosei to fengos autees, kai hoi asteres pesountai apo tou ouranou, kai hai dunameis toon ouranoon saleutheesontai. Kai tote faneesetai to seemeion tou Huiou tou Anthroopou en ouranoo, kai tote kopsontai pasai hai fulai tees gees kai opsontai ton Huion tou Anthroopou erchomenon epi toon nefeloon tou ouranou meta dunameoos kai doxees pollees; kai apostelei tous aggelous autou meta salpiggos megalees, kai episunaxousin tous eklektous autou ek toon tessaroon anemoon ap' akroon ouranoon heoos toon akroon autoon," "Directly but after the pressure of-the days those-ones the sun shall-be-darkened and the moon not shall-give the light of-it, and the stars shall-fall away-from the sky, and the powers/weather-patterns of-the sky shall-be-disrupted. And then shall-appear the sign of-th Son of-the Man in sky, and then shall-mourn all the tribes of-the Land and they-shall-see the Son of-the Man coming upon the clouds of-the sky with power and glory bright; and He-shall-send the messengers/angels of-Him with trumpet-sound loud, and they-shall-gather-together the elect/chosen-ones of-Him out-from of-the four winds from extremity of-sky unto the-other extremity of-it," He was talking more nebulously about the future, even OUR future, because these events haven't happened, yet! That's why I believe that the "tribulation" or thlipsis-pressure that Yeshua` was talking about is ON-GOING and has been going on since the first century! It hasn't ended yet because these events will happen "directly after" that pressure!

Now, I haven't said anything in this thread because, so far to date, we were talking about a part of Matt. 24 that is given in more nebulous terms and may indeed be talking about a time that is still in our future. HOWEVER, it is important not to mix up the portions in this chapter (and its mirror-images in Mark 13 and Luke 21) with those events that have already been fulfilled in the first century! Please pay close attention to the pronouns and to the conjugation of the verbs. Some of the English pronouns are found in the translation of the verb, such as "legoo" means "I am saying" or "I say," "legeis" means "you (singular) are saying" or "you (singular) say," "legei" means "he/she/it is saying" or "he/she/it says," "legomen" means "we are saying" or "we say," "legete" means "you (plural) are saying" or "you (plural) say," and "legousi" means "they are saying" or "they say." Many of the verbs in this chapter end in "-ete" which is a second-person plural ending.

Be careful not to refer back to portions of the chapter(s) that refer to those disciples who were present with Yeshua` in the first century when talking about this passage.

 

[daq]

Red bold emphasis mine:

Shalom, all.

This is why it's IMPERATIVE to understand this discourse by piecing together all three accounts IN THE GREEK FIRST and THEN translate it into English!

Brothers and sisters, remember to whom Yeshua` was speaking! He was not talking to us in the future so much; He was talking to the men (and probably women) sitting on the hillside around Him that day! Some think it was just the Twelve, but I don't think so. He had well over 120 disciples at the time, even though many had left Him! (John 6:66; Acts 1:15) Regardless to how many He was speaking, they were all first-century believers.

Therefore, whenever you read the words "ye" or "you" or "your" or "yours" in the KJV, those words refer to MORE THAN ONE INDIVIDUAL IN THE SECOND PERSON! (The singular forms of the second person are "thou," "thee," "thy," and "thine" in the KJV.)

In the Greek, it's the difference between forms of "su" (second person singular) and "humeis" (second person plural). You will find (if you study it out for yourselves) that the pronouns are often in the plural, second person, talking directly to those assembled on the mountain, not to some nebulous "y'all" including those of the future! Occasionally, He "drifts off" to the future as He speaks, but most of the time, He is talking directly to those present. When He does project off into the future, He will use terms that were translated into the Greek in more nebulous terms such as "many" or use the third person.

SO, when He said that which was translated from the Hebrew or Aramaic into the Greek words, (Matt. 24:9) "Tote paradoosousin humas eis thlipsin kai apoktenousin humas kai esesthe misoumenoi hupo pantoon toon ethnoon dia to onoma mou," "Then they-shall-deliver you into pressure and they-shall-kill you and you-shall-be hated under all the nations through the name of-me," for instance, He was talking to those believers in the first century, not people in our present or in our future!

When He said what was translated into the Greek words (Matt. 24:25-28) 'Idou proeireeka humin. Ean oun eipoosin humin, "Idou, en tee ereemoo estin," mee exetheete; "Idou, en tois tameiois," mee pisteuseete; hoosper gar hee astrapee exerchetai apo anatoloon kai fainetai heoos dusmoon, houtoos estai hee parousia tou Huiou tou Anthroopou; hopou ean ee to ptooma, ekei sunachtheesontai hoi aetoi,' 'Look I-told-beforehand to-you. So when they-say to-you, "Look, in the desert He-is," no you-go-out; "Look, in the storage-rooms," no you-believe; like for the lightning issues away-from east and flashes to-the west, so shall-be the coming of-the Son of-the Man; where what-ever is the carcase, there will-be-gathered-together the eagles/vultures,' He was talking to those believers in the first century, not people in our present or in our future!

So, much of what Yeshua` said that day was directed as a warning to those believers in the first century! They were the carrion and the Romans were the vultures!



Now, not everything was about those believers in the first century. When He said what was translated into Greek as (Matt. 24:29-31) "Eutheoos de meta teen thlipsin toon heemeroon ekeinoon ho heelios skotistheesetai kai hee seleenee ou doosei to fengos autees, kai hoi asteres pesountai apo tou ouranou, kai hai dunameis toon ouranoon saleutheesontai. Kai tote faneesetai to seemeion tou Huiou tou Anthroopou en ouranoo, kai tote kopsontai pasai hai fulai tees gees kai opsontai ton Huion tou Anthroopou erchomenon epi toon nefeloon tou ouranou meta dunameoos kai doxees pollees; kai apostelei tous aggelous autou meta salpiggos megalees, kai episunaxousin tous eklektous autou ek toon tessaroon anemoon ap' akroon ouranoon heoos toon akroon autoon," "Directly but after the pressure of-the days those-ones the sun shall-be-darkened and the moon not shall-give the light of-it, and the stars shall-fall away-from the sky, and the powers/weather-patterns of-the sky shall-be-disrupted. And then shall-appear the sign of-th Son of-the Man in sky, and then shall-mourn all the tribes of-the Land and they-shall-see the Son of-the Man coming upon the clouds of-the sky with power and glory bright; and He-shall-send the messengers/angels of-Him with trumpet-sound loud, and they-shall-gather-together the elect/chosen-ones of-Him out-from of-the four winds from extremity of-sky unto the-other extremity of-it," He was talking more nebulously about the future, even OUR future, because these events haven't happened, yet! That's why I believe that the "tribulation" or thlipsis-pressure that Yeshua` was talking about is ON-GOING and has been going on since the first century! It hasn't ended yet because these events will happen "directly after" that pressure!

Now, I haven't said anything in this thread because, so far to date, we were talking about a part of Matt. 24 that is given in more nebulous terms and may indeed be talking about a time that is still in our future. HOWEVER, it is important not to mix up the portions in this chapter (and its mirror-images in Mark 13 and Luke 21) with those events that have already been fulfilled in the first century! Please pay close attention to the pronouns and to the conjugation of the verbs. Some of the English pronouns are found in the translation of the verb, such as "legoo" means "I am saying" or "I say," "legeis" means "you (singular) are saying" or "you (singular) say," "legei" means "he/she/it is saying" or "he/she/it says," "legomen" means "we are saying" or "we say," "legete" means "you (plural) are saying" or "you (plural) say," and "legousi" means "they are saying" or "they say." Many of the verbs in this chapter end in "-ete" which is a second-person plural ending.

Be careful not to refer back to portions of the chapter(s) that refer to those disciples who were present with Yeshua` in the first century when talking about this passage.

I see, so it is perfectly fine for you to allegorize where it suits your mindset; and if the Romans were "the vultures" then it is true because you said so. Meanwhile you ignore the clear emphatic statement at the very end of the Mark 13 passage: "What I say unto you I say unto all, WATCH!" So while it is true that Yeshua speaks these things to only four disciples he also speaks the same things UNTO ALL otherwise why in the world do you suppose they wrote it down for all who would come after them?

Mark 13:31-37 KJV
31. Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.
32. But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.
33. Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is.
34. For the Son of man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch.
35. Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning:
36. Lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping.
37. And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch.

Perhaps you simply do not yet comprehend that YOU yourself are "the porter of the house" while the "House Master" is away in a far journey. You have a "dominion-kingdom" and a "house" and "fields" and "lands" (both the 'erets "outer bounds" and the 'adamah-earth-soil of the inner chambers of the heart). And if indeed you have entered into the Yeshua faith then you are no longer your own but rather your house belongs to the House Master and you are become the porter of the door who holds the KEYS to the house. Therefore glorify God in your body; mortify the deeds of the body with the mind of the flesh; mortify the unruly "members" of your own household which are upon your earth ...

 

[Rex]

Non the less as the Romans would have gathered around Jerusalem they would have been gathered under something that looked like this.

An aquila, or eagle, was the standard of a Roman legion. It was carried by a legionary known as an aquilifer, or eagle-bearer. One eagle was carried by each legion.

The eagle was extremely important to the Roman military, beyond merely being a symbol of a legion. A lost standard was considered an extremely grave occurrence, and the Roman military often went to great lengths to both protect a standard and to recover it if lost; for example, see the aftermath of the Battle of the Teutoburg Forest, where the Romans spent decades attempting to recover the lost standards of three legions.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aquila_%28Roman%29

 

[daq]

All I need is the Testimony of Yeshua, (which is the Spirit of Prophecy).

Matthew 13:3-4 KJV
3. And he spake many things unto them in parables, saying, Behold, a sower went forth to sow;
4. And when he sowed, some seeds fell by the way side, and the fowls came and devoured them up:

Matthew 13:18-19 KJV
18. Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower.
19. When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.

Mark 4:3-4 KJV
3. Hearken; Behold, there went out a sower to sow:
4. And it came to pass, as he sowed, some fell by the way side, and the fowls of the air came and devoured it up.

Mark 4:15 KJV
15. And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.

Luke 8:5-12 KJV
5. A sower went out to sow his seed: and as he sowed, some fell by the way side; and it was trodden down, and the fowls of the air devoured it.
6. And some fell upon a rock; and as soon as it was sprung up, it withered away, because it lacked moisture.
7. And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprang up with it, and choked it.
8. And other fell on good ground, and sprang up, and bare fruit an hundredfold. And when he had said these things, he cried, He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.
9. And his disciples asked him, saying, What might this parable be?
10. And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.
11. Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.
12. Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

According to the Master the trodden down "compacted soil" by the way side is the hardened heart.
And according to the Master "the unclean fowls of the air" are the following:

1) The wicked one(s)
2) The Diabolos-Devil
3) The Satan

Therefore do not "eat" or partake of the natures of the unclean fowls of the air: Leviticus 11:13-19 - Deuteronomy 14:12-18

And of the unclean masculine fowls which are abomination in the sight of God:
There are seven names in the two lists with an eighth that is of the seven ...
Even every `Orev-Raven after his own genos-kind …

 

[Axehead]

We are very familiar with this passage of scripture how two will be but one will be taken and the other left. Where are they taken too?

War! where they are bundled together and the eagles gather they are being thrown into the fire to be burned. Line of fire that is, in the heat of the action for we have been warned by our Head that those who have willing hearts to kill and take up the sword... SHALL die by the sword.
There is never any bad guys in war haven't you noticed.... for in error both sides believe they are the good guy fighting the bad guy... yet in their vain understanding they don't realize there are NO winners or good guys that have it in them to kill another human being. And both sides are being led into the fire, both suffering loss, and both working for the enemy of our God, for he was the first murderer for coveteousness sakes.

Sure, Satan is behind all sin, but that does not absolve man of their choices. I would say Hitler, Pol Pot, Mao Tse Tung and a host of others were "bad guys", wouldn't you?

When Cain killed his own brother Able, you did not hear that Adam or Eve fell so low as to desire to kill Cain, not even God killed Cain. Why didn't God kill Cain? Because God uses man to do His bidding and for judgments and there were NO willing hearts to kill at that time.

God could have killed Cain. He didn't use man to start a flood. That was God himself killing the majority of humanity.
I would say Hitler was a bad guy, wouldn't you?

 

[Rex]

daq it's a good thing there are lots of different birds, as Arnie said it is rather plunked in the middle of scripture.

Where ever the Roman army was gathered there were carcases without a doubt as well as vultures, and where ever the Roman army was the eagle was there as well.
Matthew 24:28 KJV [SIZE=80%]28[/SIZE] For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

Josy ...... I dont know about you ..... but to me ..... “Where the carcass is, there will the eagles gather” .... is one of those verses that seem to be plunked in the middle of scripture without rhyme nor reason and leaves us scratching our heads sometimes.

Where as these verses speak a different story about the eagle
Exodus 19:4 NKJV
Deuteronomy 32:11 NKJV

It's a matter of choice, aeto's is the same word in Rev that speaks of eagle but you can call it vulture if you like.
I'm not presuming it's used in the same vein as in Ex and Dt just being observant.

As for Retro I know what he believes about this matter, he's one of the few I agree with, we've discussed the subject.

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

Interesting eagle information Rex ..... at times I have considered the American Eagle symbolism .... but did not realize the importance of the eagle to Rome

 

[daq]

daq it's a good thing there are lots of different birds, as Arnie said it is rather plunked in the middle of scripture.

Where ever the Roman army was gathered there were carcases without a doubt as well as vultures, and where ever the Roman army was the eagle was there as well.
Matthew 24:28 KJV [SIZE=80%]28[/SIZE] For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.


Where as these verses speak a different story about the eagle
Exodus 19:4 NKJV
Deuteronomy 32:11 NKJV

It's a matter of choice, aeto's is the same word in Rev that speaks of eagle but you can call it vulture if you like.
I'm not presuming it's used in the same vein as in Ex and Dt just being observant.


As for Retro I know what he believes about this matter, he's one of the few I agree with, we've discussed the subject.

Seems to me no different than the fairly well known "Partial Preterist" viewpoint.
If those things are already done then the modern disciple has no reason to "Watch!" as Yeshua commanded.

And how is the "Preterist" viewpoint any different from the "Futurist" viewpoint? The "Preterist" and "Partial Preterist" say that most of the Olivet Discourse was accomplished or fulfilled in 70AD because they believe the testimony of Josephus and those who witnessed those things with their eyes of flesh and wrote of them. However, the "Futurist" on the other hand says that he does not believe what Josephus saw with his eyes of the flesh and recorded for posterity but rather will not believe unless and until he sees all those things come to pass with his own eyes of the flesh. In reality there is no effectual difference between the two opposing positions because both of them see only with the eyes of the flesh. Both are technically "dispensationalists" but merely disagree on timing, (70AD for the Preterist).

 

[Rex]

Seems to me no different than the fairly well known "Partial Preterist" viewpoint.
If those things are already done then the modern disciple has no reason to "Watch!" as Yeshua commanded.

And how is the "Preterist" viewpoint any different from the "Futurist" viewpoint? The "Preterist" and "Partial Preterist" say that most of the Olivet Discourse was accomplished or fulfilled in 70AD because they believe the testimony of Josephus and those who witnessed those things with their eyes of flesh and wrote of them. However, the "Futurist" on the other hand says that he does not believe what Josephus saw with his eyes of the flesh and recorded for posterity but rather will not believe unless and until he sees all those things come to pass with his own eyes of the flesh. In reality there is no effectual difference between the two opposing positions because both of them see only with the eyes of the flesh. Both are technically "dispensationalists" but merely disagree on timing, (70AD for the Preterist).

Partial Preterist that the usual marker assigned, but I assure you I don't believe the majority or even the greater part of Rev was fulfilled.
To cut threw the chase it really boils down to Daniel 9:24-27 more specific the displaced 7 years or the 70th week.

There are some older threads with the Danial header that this topic has been looked discussed. I really don't want to take these other peoples topic to a different subject. As some threads sometimes do they end up with someone that highly disagrees and interaction an or conversation degenerates to mud slinging. Prophesy threads were and maybe still are the worst offenders and I generally avoided them but in Daniels case I took a stand,

 

[daq]

There are some older threads with the Danial header that this topic has been looked discussed. I really don't want to take these other peoples topic to a different subject. As some threads sometimes do they end up with someone that highly disagrees and interaction an or conversation degenerates to mud slinging. Prophesy threads were and maybe still are the worst offenders and I generally avoided them but in Daniels case I took a stand,

After seeing what I have, since arriving here, the politeness and truth of your response is a pleasant surprise.

 

[veteran]

What the Romans did in 70 A.D. Jerusalem never fulfilled the things Jesus laid out in His Olivet Discourse. The Romans tried to sieze the temple but could not; it burned down from a fire starting within it while fighting (per Jewish historian Josephus). So they did NO setting up of an "abomination of desolation" in the temple, and that is one of the main warnings to note the time that our Lord Jesus gave there.

Moreover, the signs Jesus gave in His Olivet Discourse of Matt.24 and Mark 13 align with the events He gave us in the 6 Seals of Revelation 6. And we well know the events of Rev.6 have not happened yet today.

Understanding this directy from the Scriptures, and from history, is how one can know when someone is trying to push doctrines of men over what God's Word declares as written.