Retrobyter
Active Member
Shalom, all.
This is why it's IMPERATIVE to understand this discourse by piecing together all three accounts IN THE GREEK FIRST and THEN translate it into English!
Brothers and sisters, remember to whom Yeshua` was speaking! He was not talking to us in the future so much; He was talking to the men (and probably women) sitting on the hillside around Him that day! Some think it was just the Twelve, but I don't think so. He had well over 120 disciples at the time, even though many had left Him! (John 6:66; Acts 1:15) Regardless to how many He was speaking, they were all first-century believers.
Therefore, whenever you read the words "ye" or "you" or "your" or "yours" in the KJV, those words refer to MORE THAN ONE INDIVIDUAL IN THE SECOND PERSON! (The singular forms of the second person are "thou," "thee," "thy," and "thine" in the KJV.)
In the Greek, it's the difference between forms of "su" (second person singular) and "humeis" (second person plural). You will find (if you study it out for yourselves) that the pronouns are often in the plural, second person, talking directly to those assembled on the mountain, not to some nebulous "y'all" including those of the future! Occasionally, He "drifts off" to the future as He speaks, but most of the time, He is talking directly to those present. When He does project off into the future, He will use terms that were translated into the Greek in more nebulous terms such as "many" or use the third person.
SO, when He said that which was translated from the Hebrew or Aramaic into the Greek words, (Matt. 24:9) "Tote paradoosousin humas eis thlipsin kai apoktenousin humas kai esesthe misoumenoi hupo pantoon toon ethnoon dia to onoma mou," "Then they-shall-deliver you into pressure and they-shall-kill you and you-shall-be hated under all the nations through the name of-me," for instance, He was talking to those believers in the first century, not people in our present or in our future!
When He said what was translated into the Greek words (Matt. 24:25-28) 'Idou proeireeka humin. Ean oun eipoosin humin, "Idou, en tee ereemoo estin," mee exetheete; "Idou, en tois tameiois," mee pisteuseete; hoosper gar hee astrapee exerchetai apo anatoloon kai fainetai heoos dusmoon, houtoos estai hee parousia tou Huiou tou Anthroopou; hopou ean ee to ptooma, ekei sunachtheesontai hoi aetoi,' 'Look I-told-beforehand to-you. So when they-say to-you, "Look, in the desert He-is," no you-go-out; "Look, in the storage-rooms," no you-believe; like for the lightning issues away-from east and flashes to-the west, so shall-be the coming of-the Son of-the Man; where what-ever is the carcase, there will-be-gathered-together the eagles/vultures,' He was talking to those believers in the first century, not people in our present or in our future!
So, much of what Yeshua` said that day was directed as a warning to those believers in the first century! They were the carrion and the Romans were the vultures!
Now, not everything was about those believers in the first century. When He said what was translated into Greek as (Matt. 24:29-31) "Eutheoos de meta teen thlipsin toon heemeroon ekeinoon ho heelios skotistheesetai kai hee seleenee ou doosei to fengos autees, kai hoi asteres pesountai apo tou ouranou, kai hai dunameis toon ouranoon saleutheesontai. Kai tote faneesetai to seemeion tou Huiou tou Anthroopou en ouranoo, kai tote kopsontai pasai hai fulai tees gees kai opsontai ton Huion tou Anthroopou erchomenon epi toon nefeloon tou ouranou meta dunameoos kai doxees pollees; kai apostelei tous aggelous autou meta salpiggos megalees, kai episunaxousin tous eklektous autou ek toon tessaroon anemoon ap' akroon ouranoon heoos toon akroon autoon," "Directly but after the pressure of-the days those-ones the sun shall-be-darkened and the moon not shall-give the light of-it, and the stars shall-fall away-from the sky, and the powers/weather-patterns of-the sky shall-be-disrupted. And then shall-appear the sign of-th Son of-the Man in sky, and then shall-mourn all the tribes of-the Land and they-shall-see the Son of-the Man coming upon the clouds of-the sky with power and glory bright; and He-shall-send the messengers/angels of-Him with trumpet-sound loud, and they-shall-gather-together the elect/chosen-ones of-Him out-from of-the four winds from extremity of-sky unto the-other extremity of-it," He was talking more nebulously about the future, even OUR future, because these events haven't happened, yet! That's why I believe that the "tribulation" or thlipsis-pressure that Yeshua` was talking about is ON-GOING and has been going on since the first century! It hasn't ended yet because these events will happen "directly after" that pressure!
Now, I haven't said anything in this thread because, so far to date, we were talking about a part of Matt. 24 that is given in more nebulous terms and may indeed be talking about a time that is still in our future. HOWEVER, it is important not to mix up the portions in this chapter (and its mirror-images in Mark 13 and Luke 21) with those events that have already been fulfilled in the first century! Please pay close attention to the pronouns and to the conjugation of the verbs. Some of the English pronouns are found in the translation of the verb, such as "legoo" means "I am saying" or "I say," "legeis" means "you (singular) are saying" or "you (singular) say," "legei" means "he/she/it is saying" or "he/she/it says," "legomen" means "we are saying" or "we say," "legete" means "you (plural) are saying" or "you (plural) say," and "legousi" means "they are saying" or "they say." Many of the verbs in this chapter end in "-ete" which is a second-person plural ending.
Be careful not to refer back to portions of the chapter(s) that refer to those disciples who were present with Yeshua` in the first century when talking about this passage.
This is why it's IMPERATIVE to understand this discourse by piecing together all three accounts IN THE GREEK FIRST and THEN translate it into English!
Brothers and sisters, remember to whom Yeshua` was speaking! He was not talking to us in the future so much; He was talking to the men (and probably women) sitting on the hillside around Him that day! Some think it was just the Twelve, but I don't think so. He had well over 120 disciples at the time, even though many had left Him! (John 6:66; Acts 1:15) Regardless to how many He was speaking, they were all first-century believers.
Therefore, whenever you read the words "ye" or "you" or "your" or "yours" in the KJV, those words refer to MORE THAN ONE INDIVIDUAL IN THE SECOND PERSON! (The singular forms of the second person are "thou," "thee," "thy," and "thine" in the KJV.)
In the Greek, it's the difference between forms of "su" (second person singular) and "humeis" (second person plural). You will find (if you study it out for yourselves) that the pronouns are often in the plural, second person, talking directly to those assembled on the mountain, not to some nebulous "y'all" including those of the future! Occasionally, He "drifts off" to the future as He speaks, but most of the time, He is talking directly to those present. When He does project off into the future, He will use terms that were translated into the Greek in more nebulous terms such as "many" or use the third person.
SO, when He said that which was translated from the Hebrew or Aramaic into the Greek words, (Matt. 24:9) "Tote paradoosousin humas eis thlipsin kai apoktenousin humas kai esesthe misoumenoi hupo pantoon toon ethnoon dia to onoma mou," "Then they-shall-deliver you into pressure and they-shall-kill you and you-shall-be hated under all the nations through the name of-me," for instance, He was talking to those believers in the first century, not people in our present or in our future!
When He said what was translated into the Greek words (Matt. 24:25-28) 'Idou proeireeka humin. Ean oun eipoosin humin, "Idou, en tee ereemoo estin," mee exetheete; "Idou, en tois tameiois," mee pisteuseete; hoosper gar hee astrapee exerchetai apo anatoloon kai fainetai heoos dusmoon, houtoos estai hee parousia tou Huiou tou Anthroopou; hopou ean ee to ptooma, ekei sunachtheesontai hoi aetoi,' 'Look I-told-beforehand to-you. So when they-say to-you, "Look, in the desert He-is," no you-go-out; "Look, in the storage-rooms," no you-believe; like for the lightning issues away-from east and flashes to-the west, so shall-be the coming of-the Son of-the Man; where what-ever is the carcase, there will-be-gathered-together the eagles/vultures,' He was talking to those believers in the first century, not people in our present or in our future!
So, much of what Yeshua` said that day was directed as a warning to those believers in the first century! They were the carrion and the Romans were the vultures!
Now, not everything was about those believers in the first century. When He said what was translated into Greek as (Matt. 24:29-31) "Eutheoos de meta teen thlipsin toon heemeroon ekeinoon ho heelios skotistheesetai kai hee seleenee ou doosei to fengos autees, kai hoi asteres pesountai apo tou ouranou, kai hai dunameis toon ouranoon saleutheesontai. Kai tote faneesetai to seemeion tou Huiou tou Anthroopou en ouranoo, kai tote kopsontai pasai hai fulai tees gees kai opsontai ton Huion tou Anthroopou erchomenon epi toon nefeloon tou ouranou meta dunameoos kai doxees pollees; kai apostelei tous aggelous autou meta salpiggos megalees, kai episunaxousin tous eklektous autou ek toon tessaroon anemoon ap' akroon ouranoon heoos toon akroon autoon," "Directly but after the pressure of-the days those-ones the sun shall-be-darkened and the moon not shall-give the light of-it, and the stars shall-fall away-from the sky, and the powers/weather-patterns of-the sky shall-be-disrupted. And then shall-appear the sign of-th Son of-the Man in sky, and then shall-mourn all the tribes of-the Land and they-shall-see the Son of-the Man coming upon the clouds of-the sky with power and glory bright; and He-shall-send the messengers/angels of-Him with trumpet-sound loud, and they-shall-gather-together the elect/chosen-ones of-Him out-from of-the four winds from extremity of-sky unto the-other extremity of-it," He was talking more nebulously about the future, even OUR future, because these events haven't happened, yet! That's why I believe that the "tribulation" or thlipsis-pressure that Yeshua` was talking about is ON-GOING and has been going on since the first century! It hasn't ended yet because these events will happen "directly after" that pressure!
Now, I haven't said anything in this thread because, so far to date, we were talking about a part of Matt. 24 that is given in more nebulous terms and may indeed be talking about a time that is still in our future. HOWEVER, it is important not to mix up the portions in this chapter (and its mirror-images in Mark 13 and Luke 21) with those events that have already been fulfilled in the first century! Please pay close attention to the pronouns and to the conjugation of the verbs. Some of the English pronouns are found in the translation of the verb, such as "legoo" means "I am saying" or "I say," "legeis" means "you (singular) are saying" or "you (singular) say," "legei" means "he/she/it is saying" or "he/she/it says," "legomen" means "we are saying" or "we say," "legete" means "you (plural) are saying" or "you (plural) say," and "legousi" means "they are saying" or "they say." Many of the verbs in this chapter end in "-ete" which is a second-person plural ending.
Be careful not to refer back to portions of the chapter(s) that refer to those disciples who were present with Yeshua` in the first century when talking about this passage.
