Only Believers are Resurrected?

[GEN2REV]

FALSE. The Bible always refers to souls as imperishable. Before the resurrection of Christ all souls went to Sheol/Hades. Now only the unsaved dead go there. Believers go directly to Heaven. And we are talking about souls and spirits in both cases. And man is a "soul" because the soul is the real you. The body houses the soul.

If the unsaved go straight to Sheol/Hades and the saved go straight to Heaven, what is the point of the resurrection then and who does it involve?

FALSE. I already showed you that there is a "resurrection of damnation" and yet you persist in promoting your false and unbiblical conjectures.

No you absolutely did not show me that, or anybody else for that matter. You presented a verse, that you are purposely leaving out of this post so that you can't be called out about it, that states there is A resurrection that INCLUDES those who are damned as well as those who are not. And I SHOWED YOU that both categories can be included in professed Christians.

Answer this: Who is God speaking of when He says:
"My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge..."
Hosea 4:6

The sentiment is repeated in the NT with:
"And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved."
2 Thessalonians 2:10

He's speaking of professed believers, professed Christians.

Do you see how it says MIGHT be saved - if only they'd loved the Truth (Jesus/God's Word/Scripture,etc.) enough to study it and ingest it thoroughly.

Professed Christians who don't study Scripture don't ever learn the Truth about all the lies, and unbiblical doctrine, they are brainwashed to believe. If they'd only studied Scripture honestly, they could have been saved.

Because they believe and profess Christianity, and go through all the motions of a Christian, but never do the things God expects of His Children, they are resurrected ... to damnation.

It's more plausible the more I explain it out.

Thanks.

 

[GEN2REV]

How do you arrive at unbelieving being the same as wicked.

Unbelieving is a conscious decision, a choice not to believe. Believing isn't just an involuntary state that we are in, or not in. It is also a verb; an active state of choosing faith.

It doesn't refer to those who live on an island with no other humans all their lives and never hear of God. Besides, God isn't totally hands off in those cases. If someone is elect, or otherwise chosen by God to know the Truth, He very often sends people to them to teach them of Him, or He "calls" them.

Are you familiar with John 6:44?

"No man can come to me (desert island or not), except the Father which hath sent Me draw (call/attract/pull/give the unquenchable desire for Me to) him: ..."

If the soul is not immortal, how do you use this illustration to say that the "unbelievers may go straight to the Lake of Fire upon death"? What is being tormented?
The Lake of fire is not hell either, as shown by Revelation 20:13-14, so the scriptures do not support that idea.

That was one of the possibilities I listed. Annihilation was the other. Plenty of verses speak of destruction upon death for sinners and wicked.

And every time you use Revelation verses as rock-solid proofs of some concept, they are dismissed by me. Revelation claims to be a symbolic, non-literal, non-linear book; and Jesus says it is as well.

We can discuss this in another thread, if that's okay with you.

There's one already set up. Amillennialism versus Dispensationalism.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

My workaround is that the very specific term Second Resurrection exists nowhere in the entire body of Scripture. Also that book is not intended, by its own admission, to be take literally, nor in a linear sense.

If you'd watch the video in post #53, it explains your question in great detail.

CHuckle!!

 

[Enoch111]

And I SHOWED YOU that both categories can be included in professed Christians.

That is hardly the point. The point is that there is a resurrection for the just (saved) and a resurrection for the unjust (unsaved). Two separate resurrections at two different times. And you have tried to deny that. This is not about "professed Christians" but genuine Christians and genuine non-Christians.

 

[GEN2REV]

That is hardly the point. The point is that there is a resurrection for the just (saved) and a resurrection for the unjust (unsaved). Two separate resurrections at two different times. And you have tried to deny that. This is not about "professed Christians" but genuine Christians and genuine non-Christians.

So you're saying there's a resurrection that entails the raising of all Christians.

Those who have done good, to be raised to life.
And those who have done evil, to be raised to damnation.

Right.

That's John 5:28-29.

But it all takes place at the same time. See, it says they all come forth at the same hour.

Same day, same time. All at once.

Not at two different times. (A THOUSAND YEARS APART?!)

Please.

 

[MatthewG]

All people: brother Gen2rev.

From the worst child pedophile,
To the worst liar,
To the worst deceiver,
To the worst selfish person,

All of them are going to die and be resurrected to face God at judgment day…

All Souls (mind/will/emotion) (the spirit of man) are given by God.

God is the life giver, and the Life Taker.

All people are going to be resurrected despite the argument you have against it dear brother.


“and he saith, ‘Naked came I forth from the womb of my mother, and naked I turn back thither: Jehovah hath given and Jehovah hath taken: let the name of Jehovah be blessed.’ In all this Job hath not sinned, nor given folly to God.”
‭‭Job‬ ‭1:21-22‬ ‭YLT98‬‬

Numbers 27:16
Let the LORD, the God of the spirits of all flesh, set a man over the congregation,

And the dust (the flesh) returneth to the earth as it was, And the spirit (the soul) returneth to God who gave it. Ecc 12:7

 

[GEN2REV]

Numbers 27:16
Let the LORD, the God of the spirits of all flesh, set a man over the congregation,

And the dust (the flesh) returneth to the earth as it was, And the spirit (the soul) returneth to God who gave it. Ecc 12:7

I do believe the spirit of man returns to God, Matt.

But the resurrection is about raising a physical, material, flesh body up, from the grave/tomb, to become glorified.

Remember Jesus Christ's resurrection? How there was not a physical, flesh body left in the tomb after He was raised?

That's what the actual definition of resurrection really is. It's about raising the physical body to be made glorified just like Jesus' body was made.

Remember how the disciples could see and touch His body; feel His actual wounds?

That's what I am personally finding more and more evidence of within Scripture.

An unsaved, unbelieving, non-Christian's spirit will certainly return to God, just as all living things' spirits will, even those of the animal kingdom, but it is clear that they will not have their physical, fleshly, bodies raised up from the graves and tombs, like Christians' bodies will be.

Look closely at 1 Corinthians 15:50-58. It is talking about how our physical bodies that are raised must be changed because they can't dwell in heavenly realms in their earthly condition. They must be glorified, just as Jesus' body was glorified. But why would Paul explain all this in detail if it is only our spirit that is raised? Also, look closely at what is said there about how we receive resurrection. It is given by Jesus Christ to those who have believed and committed to His Ways. Those who have His Spirit.

Therefore, there is nothing in that passage that gives any impression that anybody who is not a believer, nor in Christ, will have any ability to be bodily resurrected.

Do unbelievers have the Holy Spirit within them? Do those who have rejected Christ?

Any who do not, cannot be resurrected.

God bless.

 

[MatthewG]

Gen2rev,

not to be rude however, your not God to make it to be so friend.

if you were God I might listen to you but you are fallible man just like me.

I don’t believe your premise.

love you,
Matthew Gallagher

8 “For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways,”
declares the Lord.
9 “As the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways
and my thoughts than your thoughts.

I trust the true and living God in his ability to have all people resurrected from the dead, I believe personally all will be given spiritual bodies but you can disagree if you desire about that.

 

[GEN2REV]

Gen2rev,

not to be rude however, your not God to make it to be so friend.

if you were God I might listen to you but you are fallible man just like me.

I don’t believe your premise.

love you,
Matthew Gallagher

8 “For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways,”
declares the Lord.
9 “As the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways
and my thoughts than your thoughts.

I trust the true and living God in his ability to have all people resurrected from the dead, I believe personally all will be given spiritual bodies but you can disagree if you desire about that.

Wow.

I don't have to be God to discuss HIS Words with others who claim to believe in Him.

I use HIS WORDS to make my points and to point out what is written among HIS WORDS.

If you don't like His Words, or discussing, analyzing, contemplating, His Words, maybe you should find another vocation.

Here's another one from God's Words for ya.

The Bible tells us that it would be better for those, who have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, to have never known the way of righteousness than for them to have turned away from it and the Commandments therein. It refers to them as dogs because they return to their vomit (old sins/ways) after being purified of them by the Word. It says "... their last state is worse than their first."

And why does it say this? Because they will be resurrected now, but to damnation. Whereas, if they'd never even known the Truth of Jesus Christ, they would have simply ceased to exist upon their physical death.

Now, they will be resurrected and sentenced to damnation outside the Holy City among the sorcerers, whoremongers, murderers, idolaters and all who loveth and maketh a lie.

And here are God's quoted Words for you, Matt.

2 Peter 2:20-22
Revelation 22:14-15

 

[MatthewG]

That’s okay brother.

We see things differently I love you regardless if you don’t believe in the Resurrection of all people. You can try to give me a Bible lesson but that is okay brother. The Bible is there and it needs to be considered in the aspect of the whole over all picture including revelation.

I don’t mind telling you that I just simply don’t believe what you are trying to present to me as doctrine just causes division.

You don’t believe in the resurrection of all,
I do. There are scriptures that proves your point and scriptures that prove my points.

Subjective Christianity is at play here friend.

You go ahead and believe what you do, it is between you and God. Just as my understanding is also between me and God.

 

[GEN2REV]

I trust the true and living God in his ability to have all people resurrected from the dead,

Show me where the Bible says that all people will be resurrected from the dead and I'll show you how it says they will not.

 

[MatthewG]

Great division. Lovely.

You take care I’m off this post now.

 

[GEN2REV]

Great division. Lovely.

You take care I’m off this post now.

From a Christian to a Christian, you should really keep your attitude in check.

You're a fairly new Christian. Do you believe you know everything there is to know about God and every single aspect of His Word?

None of us do, Matt. We are all a perpetual work in progress, always learning a little more each and every day.

God intends for us to learn about Him little by little. Brick by carefully-laid brick; line upon line, precept upon precept.

I may very well be wrong, but what I'm 100% accomplishing is to cause people to think for themselves, outside the lines of what is spoon-fed to us by the modern mainstream Bible teachers.

Study for yourself, think for yourself. Be open to new ways of looking at Scripture. If it doesn't fit the Bible, by all means, throw it out.

But I am continuing to present Scripture to support any point that I make. Again, I may not be right, but I am certainly not offering unsound doctrine that isn't supported in any way by God's Word.

God bless.

 

[The Disciple John]

Neither. I'm studying this concept out. Do you know how many verses there are in the Bible?

31,102

Now that you posted that number, it seems quite small, considering that there are 365 days in a year, and there are 66 books - some shorter than others, which means that in 365 days we can read the entire Bible through, by reading 2 or 3 chapters a day.
So we can actually read the Bible from cover to cover, every year, and if we have been baptized say for a decade, we would have read the Bible through 10 times, if we kept up that routine.
The more we read the Bible, the more familiar we are with what verses say, and who said what.
Teaching others also adds to how often we use verses, making them more familiar.

I don't think you can show an example of millions of people being resurrected over a long period of time from Scripture.

John 5:28 tells of a resurrection of all those in their tombs.
This resurrection occurs, during the judgment day of 1,000 years, according to Revelation 20

You're welcome to give your best guess explanation as to how that worked for Elijah & Enoch. It will likely come out being much like I've already surmised. I didn't claim to be omniscient.

Romans 3:23-26 explains that before Christ came, God was forgiving sins in the past, based on the ransom sacrifice of Jesus Christ, which was as good as paid, before the actual sacrifice.

This goes much quicker if you first claim how I'm disagreeing with them.

You said... We do not get the chance to go to heaven after we are resurrected. Our one and only chance to be saved is in this physical life.

According to the scriptures...
John 14:1-4 Jesus promised his disciples that he would take them home to be with him, in his fathers house, where the would abide with him.
2 Corinthians 5:1 Paul speaks of having a body to live eternally in heaven.
1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 Paul speaks of those who would rise to meet the lord, and be with him always.
1 Peter 1:3-4 Peter speaks of an inheritance, incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for them.

These scriptures do not agree with your comment.

It's clear you don't understand what this thread is about, or how it works. This is called a discussion; a Bible Study. It's not necessary to approach this like an attack on me as if I'm preaching false doctrine. I made my position crystal clear in the OP that I am in the process of studying this possibility out and am here to discuss the ins and outs of it.

That is all.

I believe I understand what this OP is about.
What I don't understand, is how I have "approach this like an attack on you as if you are preaching false doctrine"

Having said that, the people you listed were saved by believing in God. They were all God-fearing and righteous. That means they committed themselves to the Lord and they obeyed the Commandments. You do know Jesus is God, right?

What I am trying to understand is how they were saved, when the blood of Jesus Christ is what saves sinful mankind, who puts faith in him.
I provided the scripture above though, so that's okay.

Luke 23:39-41

I read those verses, and they do not say the evildoer was a God-fearing man.
The evildoer basically asked for forgiveness, like many people who followed Christ, but the evildoer did not follow Christ, like those who really stuck with him - Luke 22:28-30. He did not follow Christ continually - Matthew 10:38, and obey his commands John 14:15; Matthew 28:19-20.

I've already stated many times that Just and Unjust can refer to Christians. You are developing a disrespectful, argumentative, attitude that is not conducive to an honest and intelligent discussion.

By posting a scripture, as you have done?

If I don't like how somebody conducts themselves here, I don't waste my time with them. Too many frauds on these boards to waste time with - while there are few honest seekers who actually want to learn and discuss Scripture.

How am I conducting myself, different to you?

Nothing in the Bible supports that.

What? So now you're saying the wicked will not be resurrected?

Nowhere in the Bible does it speak of an immortal soul

That's not a Scriptural definition.

Then consider your post here.

You presented a verse, that you are purposely leaving out of this post so that you can't be called out about it

Professed Christians who don't study Scripture don't ever learn the Truth about all the lies, and unbiblical doctrine, they are brainwashed to believe. If they'd only studied Scripture honestly, they could have been saved.

What is that saying?
Is it not saying... "I am right in what I say, and you are not. I am not one of those professed Christians who go through the motions, but are really brainwashed by lies and unbiblical doctrines."
Is it not pointing the finger, while proclaiming yourself righteous, or in the right.

Have I done that? If I did though, and it's what you are doing, why would you condemn me? What would that say about you?

In my years of experience having Bible discussions with people, just simply telling people what the Bible says, and then saying that I have it right.. basically telling them that they are wrong, has never to my mind, been considered discussion. That's more arguing about who is right and who is wrong.
What I found works as a discussion, is asking questions, like "What do you think about...?" Then saying something like "Consider this..." or ""What do you think about looking at it this way? or "Have you given consideration to...?"

This is what I have been doing in this thread. Haven't I?

 

[The Disciple John]

Unbelieving is a conscious decision, a choice not to believe. Believing isn't just an involuntary state that we are in, or not in. It is also a verb; an active state of choosing faith.

It doesn't refer to those who live on an island with no other humans all their lives and never hear of God. Besides, God isn't totally hands off in those cases. If someone is elect, or otherwise chosen by God to know the Truth, He very often sends people to them to teach them of Him, or He "calls" them.

That's not a Scriptural definition.

Are you familiar with John 6:44?

"No man can come to me (desert island or not), except the Father which hath sent Me draw (call/attract/pull/give the unquenchable desire for Me to) him: ..."
That was one of the possibilities I listed. Annihilation was the other. Plenty of verses speak of destruction upon death for sinners and wicked.

God draw people yes, but I'm not sure what point you are trying to make with this, in connection with unbelievers.

And every time you use Revelation verses as rock-solid proofs of some concept, they are dismissed by me. Revelation claims to be a symbolic, non-literal, non-linear book; and Jesus says it is as well.

There's one already set up. Amillennialism versus Dispensationalism.

Is that a thread?

 

[GEN2REV]

Do we believe that every single man in the world believes in Jesus Christ?

"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life."
John 3:16

Do we believe that it's possible for somebody to wake up one day and just decide, of their own accord, to believe - to have faith in Christ?

The Bible teaches that belief/faith is a gift from God.
Ephesians 2:8

Jesus Himself tells us that no man can come to Him (that alone proves that unbelievers cannot be resurrected) unless the Father calls/draws them to Christ - and it is those, and only those, who Christ raises up.
John 6:44

Jesus also tells us it is only those who take in His words that receive resurrection life into themselves via the eating of His flesh and drinking of His Blood (reading and believing of His words).
John 6:63
John 6:54
Hebrews 4:2

"... the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life."
"Whoso eateth My flesh, and drinketh my blood (reading of My words mixed with faith), hath eternal life; and I will raise him (and only him) up at the last day."

All Scripture, guys. Nothing added or twisted.

Not my words, God's words.

 

[GEN2REV]

Now that you posted that number, it seems quite small, considering that there are 365 days in a year, and there are 66 books - some shorter than others, which means that in 365 days we can read the entire Bible through, by reading 2 or 3 chapters a day.
So we can actually read the Bible from cover to cover, every year, and if we have been baptized say for a decade, we would have read the Bible through 10 times, if we kept up that routine.
The more we read the Bible, the more familiar we are with what verses say, and who said what.
Teaching others also adds to how often we use verses, making them more familiar.

I don't understand what the rush is. It's not to be read like a novel. It's to be studied daily for the rest of our lives.

I've read it cover to cover 4 times in about 12 years, while always studying out specific concepts along side my daily readings, and I have a better grasp of the Bible than the vast majority that spend 10's of thousands on Seminary degrees. Why? Because the Holy Spirit taught me ... for FREE. I wasn't taught all the man-made doctrines, misinterpretations and absolute nonsense that men teach today. I can literally get all that from going to church or watching famous TV pastors and listening to radio preachers.

All hog wash.

I read those verses, and they do not say the evildoer was a God-fearing man.

If you can't see in those verses that the man was God-fearing, by his statements to the other criminal, and that he believed in Jesus who was right beside him, there's nothing I can do to make you see it.

As far as making claims that you say I'm not supporting with Scripture, if I have to repeat myself, because you're intentionally ignoring Scripture I've already posted, I will simply repeat my claim instead of wasting my time re-posting verses.

 

[GEN2REV]

That's not a Scriptural definition.

God draw people yes, but I'm not sure what point you are trying to make with this, in connection with unbelievers.

That's ok. It's not convenient for you to "get it" if it threatens your contrary position.

Be well.

 

[GEN2REV]

Should every man be resurrected regardless of faith or creed?

If so, why?

Some are claiming all men need a chance to find God.

Uhhhh .... so a lifetime is not enough?

Are we making the case that God isn't sufficient enough to call/draw us to any and all info about Him and His Son?

The rich man begged Abraham to allow him to send a message to them so they would be saved and not have to endure the misery of the flames that he was suffering. And what did Abraham tell him?

"... he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

And I propose that no man will find God, if they are resurrected for an additional span of life, if they have not found Him in the span they were allotted by God.

God calls and draws and chooses. No man goes unnoticed by God to the grave. All these types of assumptions place a deficit upon God's awareness and thoroughness in governing His Creation.

God is also outside of time, don't forget. So the idea that He needs a little more time to set things right is ridiculous.

Jesus resurrects those who are supposed to be resurrected, those who have resurrection life within them, and no others.

 

[The Disciple John]

That's ok. It's not convenient for you to "get it" if it threatens your contrary position.

Be well.

The first thought that came to my mind was, since you are the righteous one, let me follow your example...

Understanding what righteous means, helped me get this cleared.
Righteous - Does what is right, knowing what is right.
Unrighteous - Does not do what is right, because of not knowing what is right.
Wicked - Does not do what is right, although knowing what is right.

That's not a Scriptural definition.

That's ok. It's not convenient for you to "get it" if it threatens your contrary position.
Be well.​

...but then the second thought that came to me was... Romans 12:17 Repay no one evil for evil. Have regard for good things in the sight of all men.