Only Believers are Resurrected?

[GEN2REV]

This concept is new to me, but is very significant if it's accurate.

I have spoken to Truth7t7 and respect his opinion to the contrary.

The more I study scripture, the more evidence I find for this possibility. And there is ample evidence.

I will provide as many verses from scripture as I can to make my case. Please consider this with an open mind and look closely at the verses presented; from multiple versions of scripture if necessary.

The truth of this matter would alter some doctrines, but overall doesn't seem to be a threat to Christians or to any matters of salvation. It is very significant, though.

Here we have Jesus' words about this:

"... I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in Me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: ..."
John 11:25
"... I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No man cometh unto the Father, but by Me."
John 14:6

Jesus tells us that HE IS the Resurrection. HE IS (spiritual) Life. Therefore, it would appear that those who don't believe in God/Jesus, don't even have the primary ingredient within them to even be capable of being raised to begin with.

"It is the Spirit that quickeneth (gives life); ... the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are Life. ... Then Simon Peter answered Him, Lord, to whom shall we go? Thou hast the words of eternal life."
John 6:63
John 6:68

This passage tells us that Jesus' (God's) words are His Spirit. If somebody doesn't take-in, or at least accept and believe, God's Words, the Bible tells us they do not have spiritual life within them.

"... the resurrection of the dead comes ... through a man."
1 Corinthians 15:21

That man is Jesus Christ. If one does not have that man within them, or does not even believe in Him, they do not have His Spirit within them and do not have that resurrection power in their body.

"For if we have been united with Him in a death like His, we will certainly also be united with Him in a resurrection like His."
Romans 6:5

If we are not united to Christ, we will not be resurrected.

"That I may know Him and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, being made conformable unto His death.
Philippians 3:10

Do atheists know Christ and the power of His resurrection? Have they suffered as Christians or been made conformable to His death?

We have Jesus telling us that 'only His sheep hear and follow His voice.'
John 10:16
John 10:26-28
Could His shout be what calls those sheep up out of the graves to be raised up on the Last Day, and only His sheep are raised?
1 Thessalonians 4:16
And we see that all those in the graves 'that hear His voice' will be raised.
John 5:28-29
Only those believers would have His quickening Spirit and Words to give them life enough to be resurrected John 6:63, John 6:68 and then judged based on their deeds. Some to everlasting life and some to eternal damnation.

Daniel 12:2 says 'many' shall awake, but not 'all.' It also says some of those will be ashamed. To me, that shame fits believers more than staunch atheists.
It paints the picture of the many who will say 'Lord, Lord' in Matthew 7:22-23.

Matthew 7:24-27 shows His sheep, who are "hearing His voice", not adhering to His Words and the result of their failure to take the actions He prescribes, His Commandments, etc.

1 Corinthians 15:23 only mentions those who believe being raised.

Acts 24:21 says the 'just and the unjust', but that can certainly be among believers only.

John 6:44 says Jesus will raise up only those His Father sends Him, but we know some of those will not obey and serve Him justly.

God bless.

 

[GEN2REV]

It really makes no sense that God would wipe out the unbelieving masses only to raise them up again to be judged.

Isaiah 13:9
Isaiah 13:11
2 Thessalonians 1:7-9

His wiping of them out IS their judgment. That's exactly why it's called Judgment Day.

It's exactly why all tribes of the earth will mourn when the see the sign of the Son of Man coming with the clouds.
Matthew 24:30

I can tell you, I sure won't be mourning. I'll be rejoicing!!

The wicked, and sinners, will be mourning because they will know with 100% certainty that they were wrong. And they will all know in their hearts, without a doubt, what comes next for them.

I believe this stark terror differs from the "shame" that many believers will be resurrected to.

Thus, the resurrection of the believers only.

 

[GRACE ambassador]

op: ONLY believers are resurrected?
Well, Precious friend, we do know these, Correct?:

"And as it is appointed unto men once to die,
but after this the judgment" (Heb_9:27)
​

Doesn't sound like "first death" is the judgment, which God separates, and
says it occurs after death? Unless the first death is annihilation?:

"And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth
Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and
said, father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus,
that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue;

for I am tormented in this flame. But Abraham said, son, remember
that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise
Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented."
(Luk_16:23-35)​

Seems That Christ's Truth is that UNbelievers are not annihilated, but are
"in torment, on hold" awaiting:

"And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell
delivered up the dead which were in them: and [Then?] they were
Judged every man according to their works." (Rev_20:13)​

If "death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them" is not a
"resurrection" then pray tell, what Should we call it?:

Joh_5:29 "And shall come forth; they that have done good,
unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto:​

the resurrection of damnation." Correct?:
​

"And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given
unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the
witness of Jesus, and for The Word of God, and which had not worshipped
the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their
foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a
thousand years.

But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were
finished.

This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the
first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall
be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years."
(Rev_20:4-6)
​

Wait! God Said there are TWO resurrections, same as John_5:29?

Is there a Second Death after the Second resurrection of UNbelievers?:

"And I saw a Great White Throne, and Him That Sat on it, from Whose
Face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place
for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God;

and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is
the book of life:and the dead were Judged out of those things which
were written in the books, according to their works.

And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell
delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were Judged every
man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake
of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in
the book of life was cast into the lake of fire." (Rev_20:11-15)​

I apologize IF I am missing something? Also, IF UNbelievers are annihilated,
then How Does The Just And Righteous Judge, The LORD JESUS CHRIST:

"Judge them according to their works"? Would not that be by "degrees" - some
have Worse Punishment than others, opposite of "believers have rewards, but
some do not"?

Love a Good Bible study, don't you?

GRACE And Peace...

 

[GEN2REV]

It's interesting that in 1 Thessalonians 4:16, it tells us that the dead in Christ "will rise first,", but that word first doesn't seem to indicate that there will be more dead rising subsequently. The next verse defines the meaning of that word first when it says "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them ...".

So verse 16 isn't just speaking of the dead in Christ rising from the grave, it's conveying the image of them rising up into the sky.

The dead in Christ will rise up into the sky FIRST, then those who are still alive and remain will rise up into the sky to meet them.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

 

[Invisibilis]

Only Believers are Resurrected?
This how I understand this...

Non-believers believe that their body and sense of self are one. Believers know that they have a body, but are not the body.

The believer is like a driver who has a vehicle. When the vehicle dies, the driver steps out of the vehicle (resurrected) and lets the vehicle return to earth.

The non-believer is like a driver who is also the vehicle. When the vehicle dies, so too does the driver with it. Both return to earth.

 

[GEN2REV]

"And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell
delivered up the dead which were in them: and [Then?] they were
Judged every man according to their works." (Rev_20:13)​

If "death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them" is not a
"resurrection" then pray tell, what Should we call it?:

I do believe this is a resurrection, but it's possible that it's a resurrection of believers only.

Joh_5:29 "And shall come forth; they that have done good,
unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto:​

the resurrection of damnation." Correct?:​

Yes, but I still see it possible that this is one mass of people being resurrected; one is raised to life and the other to damnation. Just as we see in Matthew 7:22, there will be many who are absolutely shocked to be turned away by God.

It is clear that those who embrace OSAS/Eternal Security, will not be able to even consider this concept for a moment. I understand that.

I am not a suscriber to that doctrine.​

Wait! God Said there are TWO resurrections, same as John_5:29?

No, God doesn't seem to say anything at all about a Second Resurrection anywhere in scripture. And John 5:29 doesn't appear to me to present 2 resurrections; it's all the same resurrection, but some are raised to life and some to damnation.

Are unbelievers annihilated? That's a good question. I think it is certainly possible in light of the plausibility of this concept. We'll just have to keep studying it out.

Thank you for the humane response.

 

[GEN2REV]

Only Believers are Resurrected?
This how I understand this...

Non-believers believe that their body and sense of self are one. Believers know that they have a body, but are not the body.

The believer is like a driver who has a vehicle. When the vehicle dies, the driver steps out of the vehicle (resurrected) and lets the vehicle return to earth.

The non-believer is like a driver who is also the vehicle. When the vehicle dies, so too does the driver with it. Both return to earth.

Yes, this makes a lot of sense.

I believe the Bible speaks of believers being able to keep their original bodies after resurrection, but in a quickened (spiritually enhanced?) state - like Jesus' body was after His resurrection. It was physical, but had supernatural qualities. No blood, no need for earthly food or water, etc. His original physical body but in an angelic, supernatural condition.

I guess we'll see what happens.

 

[MatthewG]

I found this Gen2Rev,


“So why do you condemn another believer? Why do you look down on another believer? Remember, we will all stand before the judgment seat of God. For the Scriptures say, “‘As surely as I live,’ says the Lord, ‘every knee will bend to me, and every tongue will declare allegiance to God.’””
‭‭Romans‬ ‭14:10-11‬ ‭NLT‬‬

What are some of your thoughts on this scripture?

 

[GEN2REV]

I found this Gen2Rev,

“So why do you condemn another believer? Why do you look down on another believer? Remember, we will all stand before the judgment seat of God. For the Scriptures say, “‘As surely as I live,’ says the Lord, ‘every knee will bend to me, and every tongue will declare allegiance to God.’””
‭‭Romans‬ ‭14:10-11‬ ‭NLT‬‬

What are some of your thoughts on this scripture?

Thanks Matthew.

Well, it's definitely one of the verses that tends a bit more to appear to show that all people will be resurrected.

BUT, if you look closely, the first two sentences seem to set the theme for the passage in that it's referring to believers only.

I do believe every knee, of every single human being, will bend to the Lord, especially upon His dramatic return. As far as the 'every tongue declaring allegiance' part? I'll have to think about that one. Do all those same people declare allegiance to God when they concede defeat at His coming? I'm not sure.

Hmm. Something to consider for sure.

Thanks for the verse.

 

[Robert Gwin]

This concept is new to me, but is very significant if it's accurate.

I have spoken to Truth7t7 and respect his opinion to the contrary.

The more I study scripture, the more evidence I find for this possibility. And there is ample evidence.

I will provide as many verses from scripture as I can to make my case. Please consider this with an open mind and look closely at the verses presented; from multiple versions of scripture if necessary.

The truth of this matter would alter some doctrines, but overall doesn't seem to be a threat to Christians or to any matters of salvation. It is very significant, though.

Here we have Jesus' words about this:

"... I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in Me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: ..."
John 11:25
"... I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No man cometh unto the Father, but by Me."
John 14:6

Jesus tells us that HE IS the Resurrection. HE IS (spiritual) Life. Therefore, it would appear that those who don't believe in God/Jesus, don't even have the primary ingredient within them to even be capable of being raised to begin with.

"It is the Spirit that quickeneth (gives life); ... the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are Life. ... Then Simon Peter answered Him, Lord, to whom shall we go? Thou hast the words of eternal life."
John 6:63
John 6:68

This passage tells us that Jesus' (God's) words are His Spirit. If somebody doesn't take-in, or at least accept and believe, God's Words, the Bible tells us they do not have spiritual life within them.

"... the resurrection of the dead comes ... through a man."
1 Corinthians 15:21

That man is Jesus Christ. If one does not have that man within them, or does not even believe in Him, they do not have His Spirit within them and do not have that resurrection power in their body.

"For if we have been united with Him in a death like His, we will certainly also be united with Him in a resurrection like His."
Romans 6:5

If we are not united to Christ, we will not be resurrected.

"That I may know Him and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, being made conformable unto His death.
Philippians 3:10

Do atheists know Christ and the power of His resurrection? Have they suffered as Christians or been made conformable to His death?

We have Jesus telling us that 'only His sheep hear and follow His voice.'
John 10:16
John 10:26-28
Could His shout be what calls those sheep up out of the graves to be raised up on the Last Day, and only His sheep are raised?
1 Thessalonians 4:16
And we see that all those in the graves 'that hear His voice' will be raised.
John 5:28-29
Only those believers would have His quickening Spirit and Words to give them life enough to be resurrected John 6:63, John 6:68 and then judged based on their deeds. Some to everlasting life and some to eternal damnation.

Daniel 12:2 says 'many' shall awake, but not 'all.' It also says some of those will be ashamed. To me, that shame fits believers more than staunch atheists.
It paints the picture of the many who will say 'Lord, Lord' in Matthew 7:22-23.

Matthew 7:24-27 shows His sheep, who are "hearing His voice", not adhering to His Words and the result of their failure to take the actions He prescribes, His Commandments, etc.

1 Corinthians 15:23 only mentions those who believe being raised.

Acts 24:21 says the 'just and the unjust', but that can certainly be among believers only.

John 6:44 says Jesus will raise up only those His Father sends Him, but we know some of those will not obey and serve Him justly.

God bless.

The key is found in Acts 24:15 Gen, as it speaks of the resurrection of the unrighteous. We believe the unrighteous were individuals who never had the opportunity to know God fully to determine if they would serve Him. God is just, and clearly billions through history never had the chance to know Him, in fact to even hear about Him.

 

[GEN2REV]

The key is found in Acts 24:15 Gen, as it speaks of the resurrection of the unrighteous. We believe the unrighteous were individuals who never had the opportunity to know God fully to determine if they would serve Him. God is just, and clearly billions through history never had the chance to know Him, in fact to even hear about Him.

Thanks Rob.

"... there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and the unjust."
Acts 24:15

I see the point you're making. The verse seems to say that there will be two resurrections based on the last part of the verse there. But it does say a resurrection. It seems that if the author wanted to refer to multiple events, he would say 'there shall be resurrections (plural) of the dead.'

I also believe that Christians can be referred to as unjust/unrighteous. I am of the belief, based on many verses, that some Christians will be rejected by God after their resurrection. Matthew 7:22 is one indication of that to me.

We need to consider a couple things that come to mind. In Ecclesiastes 12:5-7, we are told that a person's spirit returns to God upon their death. If that is just a general spirit of physical body-animating life, and not THE Holy Spirit, as it seems to indicate, then is that the moment of judgment? Remember, there is no time in the spirit realm where God exists.

The story of Lazarus seems to show that unbelievers may go straight to the Lake of Fire upon death. Whereas the believers are said to be sleeping in the dust of the earth. Awaiting their resurrection?

It's never made much sense to me that unbelievers would be raised physically from their graves only to be judged and punished. It makes more sense that it would be believers who are ashamed before God after they are resurrected. An atheist wouldn't be ashamed of anything. The guilty are only ever disappointed they got caught for their crimes, they have no shame; certainly not before a God they didn't believe in.

One of the real kickers of this concept is whether someone embraces the Millennium doctrine or not. I do not. If one considers that doctrine legitimate, which scripture very much contradicts, then you can believe that the earth will remain long enough after Jesus' return to be capable of two resurrections 1,000 years apart. But if you see that scripture makes plain that the earth is destroyed upon Jesus' return, then there is no time for there to be a Second Resurrection a millennia later.

One resurrection when Jesus returns, some to life and some to shame and damnation; then the earth is destroyed.

It's an ongoing analysis, to be sure. Very interesting.

Thanks for the comment.

 

[Davy]

One will never... understand about "the dead" in Revelation 20 until they have first understood Apostle Paul in 1 Corinthians 15 about the resurrection body type.

In John 5:28-29, Lord Jesus emphatically revealed that on the day of His coming ALL in the graves are resurrected, either to the "resurrection of life", or to the "resurrection of damnation". He showed the wicked dead WILL BE RAISED TO THE RESURRECTION BODY ALSO! END OF DEBATE ON THAT IDEA THEN.

In 1 Corinthians 15, Apostle Paul revealed the resurrection body type is to a "spiritual body". He also called it the "image of the heavenly".

Since those of the "resurrection of damnation" are RAISED too, that means they will also have that same "spiritual body". This further means the resurrection body DOES NOT MEAN AUTOMATIC SALVATION IN CHRIST. What's the difference Paul shows why not?

In the 1 Corinthians 15:53-54 verses, Paul used 4 Greek words to show 2 CHANGES one MUST go through to have eternal life in Christ Jesus...

The 'corruptible' (flesh body) must put on 'incorruption' (a spiritual body), AND... 'this mortal' (the soul) must put on 'immortality' (deathlessness).

This is why the Revelation 20:5 verse that "the dead" lived not again until the 1,000 years were over means the SPIRITUALLY DEAD SOULS, not literal dead in the ground people that must wait for the 1,000 years to be over. Lord Jesus compared the blind scribes and Pharisees like whited tombs that appear clean on the outside, but inside are full of dead men's bones. He was pointing to their 'mortal souls' inside their flesh body by refusing eternal life through Faith on Jesus. That will be the condition of those raised to the "resurrection of damnation" also. Their souls will still be in the mortal, liable to perish, condition, without Christ.

The majority of those are represented by those nations that still exist during that 1,000 years. Those did not hear The Gospel, or were deceived and blinded, like those of Paul's brethren he taught about in Romans 11.

This is why the Book of Life is opened at the Great White Throne Judgement, to see if any of their names are found in it, having turned to faith on Jesus Christ. These represent a 2nd Resurrection LIKE the "first resurrection" in Christ.

 

[GEN2REV]

One will never... understand about "the dead" in Revelation 20 until they have first understood Apostle Paul in 1 Corinthians 15 about the resurrection body type.

In John 5:28-29, Lord Jesus emphatically revealed that on the day of His coming ALL in the graves are resurrected, either to the "resurrection of life", or to the "resurrection of damnation". He showed the wicked dead WILL BE RAISED TO THE RESURRECTION BODY ALSO! END OF DEBATE ON THAT IDEA THEN.

In 1 Corinthians 15, Apostle Paul revealed the resurrection body type is to a "spiritual body". He also called it the "image of the heavenly".

Since those of the "resurrection of damnation" are RAISED too, that means they will also have that same "spiritual body". This further means the resurrection body DOES NOT MEAN AUTOMATIC SALVATION IN CHRIST. What's the difference Paul shows why not?

In the 1 Corinthians 15:53-54 verses, Paul used 4 Greek words to show 2 CHANGES one MUST go through to have eternal life in Christ Jesus...

The 'corruptible' (flesh body) must put on 'incorruption' (a spiritual body), AND... 'this mortal' (the soul) must put on 'immortality' (deathlessness).

This is why the Revelation 20:5 verse that "the dead" lived not again until the 1,000 years were over means the SPIRITUALLY DEAD SOULS, not literal dead in the ground people that must wait for the 1,000 years to be over. Lord Jesus compared the blind scribes and Pharisees like whited tombs that appear clean on the outside, but inside are full of dead men's bones. He was pointing to their 'mortal souls' inside their flesh body by refusing eternal life through Faith on Jesus. That will be the condition of those raised to the "resurrection of damnation" also. Their souls will still be in the mortal, liable to perish, condition, without Christ.

The majority of those are represented by those nations that still exist during that 1,000 years. Those did not hear The Gospel, or were deceived and blinded, like those of Paul's brethren he taught about in Romans 11.

This is why the Book of Life is opened at the Great White Throne Judgement, to see if any of their names are found in it, having turned to faith on Jesus Christ. These represent a 2nd Resurrection LIKE the "first resurrection" in Christ.

Thanks Davy.

Few things to ponder there for sure.

No desire to make this another Millennium thread, but what do you think of the Matthew 22:30 passage where Jesus states that in the resurrection nobody will marry, or be given in marriage (somewhat implying no more intercourse), but will be like the angels of heaven?

It seems like if we receive spiritual bodies (and I believe the physical earth ends and the spiritual earth begins) then how can people continue to have children that will populate the earth for that 1,000 years?

My question is geared at the fact that the word 'resurrection' means raised from the physical dead, from the physical earth; from physical graves and tombs, etc. If there is no more physical earth, and our bodies aren't physical any longer, how can there be a Second Resurrection 1,000 years later?

This is focused on the premise of the OP that only believers will be resurrected at Christ's return, and that there will be no physical earth to be raised from, a millennia later, for unbelievers.

Your thoughts?

 

[MatthewG]

What about your thoughts on the scripture founded in revelation 22?

It’s interesting that John noted these things in what he had seen.

“And I, John, am he who is seeing these things and hearing, and when I heard and beheld, I fell down to bow before the feet of the messenger who is shewing me these things; and he saith to me, ‘See — not; for fellow-servant of thee am I, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of those keeping the words of this scroll; before God bow.’

And he saith to me, ‘Thou mayest not seal the words of the prophecy of this scroll, because the time is nigh; he who is unrighteous — let him be unrighteous still, and he who is filthy — let him be filthy still, and he who is righteous — let him be declared righteous still, and he who is sanctified — let him be sanctified still: And lo, I come quickly, and my reward [is] with me, to render to each as his work shall be; I am the Alpha and the Omega — the Beginning and End — the First and the Last.

‘Happy are those doing His commands that the authority shall be theirs unto the tree of the life, and by the gates they may enter into the city;

and without [are] the dogs, and the sorcerers, and the whoremongers, and the murderers, and the idolaters, and every one who is loving and is doing a lie.

‘I, Jesus did send my messenger to testify to you these things concerning the assemblies; I am the root and the offspring of David, the bright and morning star!

And the Spirit and the Bride say, Come; and he who is hearing — let him say, Come; and he who is thirsting — let him come; and he who is willing — let him take the water of life freely.

‘For I testify to every one hearing the words of the prophecy of this scroll, if any one may add unto these, God shall add to him the plagues that have been written in this scroll, and if any one may take away from the words of the scroll of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the scroll of the life, and out of the holy city, and the things that have been written in this scroll;’ he saith — who is testifying these things — ‘Yes, I come quickly!’ Amen! Yes, be coming, Lord Jesus! The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ [is] with you all. Amen.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭22:8-21‬ ‭YLT98‬‬

Would you consider this a visible site of Heaven being the City with those of faith going inward and those on the outside are too resurrected by God and are outside the city?

What are you thoughts also on this scripture: 2 Peter 3:9

 

[GEN2REV]

What about your thoughts on the scripture founded in revelation 22?

It’s interesting that John noted these things in what he had seen.

“And I, John, am he who is seeing these things and hearing, and when I heard and beheld, I fell down to bow before the feet of the messenger who is shewing me these things; and he saith to me, ‘See — not; for fellow-servant of thee am I, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of those keeping the words of this scroll; before God bow.’

And he saith to me, ‘Thou mayest not seal the words of the prophecy of this scroll, because the time is nigh; he who is unrighteous — let him be unrighteous still, and he who is filthy — let him be filthy still, and he who is righteous — let him be declared righteous still, and he who is sanctified — let him be sanctified still: And lo, I come quickly, and my reward [is] with me, to render to each as his work shall be; I am the Alpha and the Omega — the Beginning and End — the First and the Last.

‘Happy are those doing His commands that the authority shall be theirs unto the tree of the life, and by the gates they may enter into the city;

and without [are] the dogs, and the sorcerers, and the whoremongers, and the murderers, and the idolaters, and every one who is loving and is doing a lie.

‘I, Jesus did send my messenger to testify to you these things concerning the assemblies; I am the root and the offspring of David, the bright and morning star!

And the Spirit and the Bride say, Come; and he who is hearing — let him say, Come; and he who is thirsting — let him come; and he who is willing — let him take the water of life freely.

‘For I testify to every one hearing the words of the prophecy of this scroll, if any one may add unto these, God shall add to him the plagues that have been written in this scroll, and if any one may take away from the words of the scroll of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the scroll of the life, and out of the holy city, and the things that have been written in this scroll;’ he saith — who is testifying these things — ‘Yes, I come quickly!’ Amen! Yes, be coming, Lord Jesus! The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ [is] with you all. Amen.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭22:8-21‬ ‭YLT98‬‬

Would you consider this a visible site of Heaven being the City with those of faith going inward and those on the outside are too resurrected by God and are outside the city?

What are you thoughts also on this scripture: 2 Peter 3:9

I have a hard time including Revelation in any of my supporting arguments for many reasons.
-The intro in the KJV reads:
"... Revelation centers around visions and symbols."
-In Revelation 1:1, we are told that Jesus, speaking of the entire book, "... sent and signified it by His angel unto His servant John." This tells us that it is very much based on signs and symbols.
-John mentions many times throughout the book that he was in the spirit when he saw these things.

All of that considered, it is difficult to use it as a literal, or linear, foundation for any doctrine.

Yes, many other prophetic books use signs and symbols, but the doctrines made from their pages are very supported and confirmed by multiple other books in scripture. Much of Revelation is not.

The passage you cited, Rev. 22:8-21, could also be talking about the kingdom of God/Jesus/heaven that began at Jesus First Advent and is completed at His return in 1 Corinthians 15:22-27. In that instance, it would be referring to the kingdom of believers. Its reference to all those outside the city would be referring to Christians who have not abided in Christ and did not bear fruit sufficient for salvation.

They're referred to as dogs because they've returned to their vomit, meaning once they received the Truth of the gospel and were made clean, they returned to their old ways, their old sins. Proverbs 26:11; 2 Peter 2:22

Sorcerers are those who practice witchcraft. Rebellion is equal to witchcraft. 1 Samuel 15:23

Rebellion is the disobeying of the Commandments. 1 Samuel 12:15

Whoremongers are adulterers.

Murderers are those with deep-seated hatred in their hearts.

Idolaters are those who worship another god than the Lord God Almighty.
(Caution to those who embrace the trinity)

The same can be said for 2 Peter 3:9. It mentions a promise from the Lord. His promises are always to His people, not to unbelievers. He makes no promises to them. Therefore, the verse is saying the He wishes that no believers perish and that all come to repentance.

 

[MatthewG]

Mm.

Thank you for being kind of enough to share.

The only other remaining question I had was if then when unbeliever dies. Where does his soul go? To you? Considering you believe revelation those outside are those who would be deemed “faithless” having not abiding in Christ.


I would like to also bring this to your attention:

Anyone who hates a brother or sister is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life residing in him. 1 John

If this is the case; yet John writes in revelation there are murderers outside the kingdom of heaven? It’s profound to me, this was even noted by John, in the Bible, in first place.

Love to you in Christ, I don’t believe resurrection is just for believers, you know that too because you remember Jesus about the two resurrections. There actually 3 but the main two is for the believer and unbeliever. (Where in scripture does it talk about a 3rd resurrection would be something to dig into, for it is founded in scripture).

So I do not believe you are able to make the case of only believers are resurrected in my opinion.

God bless you friend, in Christ,
Matthew Gallagher

 

[GEN2REV]

when unbeliever dies. Where does his soul go? To you?

Why would their soul come to me?

Considering you believe revelation those outside are those who would be deemed “faithless” having not abiding in Christ.

That's not what I said.

In the verse you quoted, I said those outside the city, not outside the kingdom. Those outside the city could be Christians that didn't abide in Christ, as we are supposed to, and didn't bear fruit sufficient for salvation. Outside the city could be the outer darkness. Who knows?

John writes in revelation there are murderers outside the kingdom of heaven?

He doesn't say outside the kingdom, Matthew. He says outside the city. That's why I say they could be Christians who have missed the mark.

The bottom line is that it's Revelation. So, it's hard to say exactly what's being conveyed therein. It's hard to tell what is to be taken literal, or linear, in that book.

I do not believe you are able to make the case of only believers are resurrected in my opinion.

Ok. No problem.

Thanks for your input.

God bless.

 

[MatthewG]

Where does an unbeliever soul go to you (in your opinion), is what I meant by that my friend. Thank you also for being kind in sharing. As you stated it is all very much conjecture when it comes to the Revelation to a certain degree especially with 22.

My hope is for what God hopes and desires either in this life or after for people to come to the truth about his Son. The Bible tells us to express our hope if a person is ever asked this would be mine.

Thank you again,
In Christ,
Matthew Gallagher

 

[Enoch111]

This concept is new to me, but is very significant if it's accurate.

Since Christ spoke of the "resurrection of damnation" that should be the end of this discussion.

Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. (John 5:28,29)

This resurrection is presented as a future event in Revelation 20:12: And I saw the [unsaved] dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

It should be obvious from the context that (a) these are the unsaved dead and (b) this is the resurrection of damnation.

 

[GEN2REV]

Where does an unbeliever soul go to you (in your opinion), is what I meant by that my friend.

Oh. Gotcha.

I'm unsure. Possibly annihilation?

Possibly straight to the Lake of Fire upon death?

Though we see the events, like the Lake of Fire, in Revelation in a linear way in our human minds, I believe they may not take place in that particular order in the spirit realm. We have the story of Lazarus, which appears to be a true story, not just a parable. If unbelievers/wicked go straight to judgment upon death, this would all line up.

Thanks for the question. I'm still studying this all out myself.