OSAS.... what does this really mean ?

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
<<<It's not GOD who "wastes the blood">>>

Good that you see that God would not waste the blood of Jesus.

You said it is others who wastes his blood. How could others waste it, when it was not they who offered it, but Jesus? He gave up His blood for the benefit of people, a people whom the Father had given Him. He call them His sheep. And He knows His sheep. He gave His life for His sheep. And he will give His sheep, eternal life.

The man in Heb10:29 "was sanctified by Jesus' blood" -- but now he scorns that very blood, tramples Jesus and insults the Spirit; in context Jesus' sacrifice no longer covers him. And in context, he is us if we do not heed the warning.

And if you take that as losing his salvation, as you say Jesus’ sacrifice no longer covers him, then that would render Jesus as have failed in saving him, more so wasted His blood on him, having sacrificed it for him. And if you take that as the sanctified man by the blood of Jesus gets unsaved and goes to hell, that would render Jesus losing a sheep that he had sacrificed His blood to save him, thereby wasting His blood on him. Besides He then fails to keep those whom the Father has given to Him to save and keep and Shepherd them, and give them eternal life.

But the context will not support such a take. What happens to the new covenant man is contrasted to what happens to the old covenant man, in the event that the old covenant man sin willfully after he have received the knowledge of the Law, compared to in the event that the new covenant man have received the knowledge of the truth.

He will find them and gather them, that there will be one flock and one Shepherd, Jesus Christ. And finding them, He will keep them all and lose not one, else wasted His blood on anyone that he lose.

Speaking of "flock":

"Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood.
"I know that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock;
and from among your own selves men will arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after them.
"Therefore be on the alert..." Acts20:28-31​

The flock -- us, whom He purchased with His blood --- savage wolves will not spare the flock. Is the flock in DANGER?

What happens to the "blood-purchase", if wolves are allowed to devour them?

Perverse men will draw away even disciples --- are disciples in DANGER?

What did Paul mean?

You tell me. And before you think that Paul is referring to the sheep losing their salvation:

Spoiler: John 10:14-16, 27-30

14-16: I am the good shepherd; and I know My sheep, and am known by My own. As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.

27-30: 27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. I and My Father are one.”

Could there be any wolf who can snatch them out of Jesus Christ and the Father’s hand?

Absolutely none! No wolf can!

question:

“in figurative language, may I ask, would you say you have eaten of Jesus’ flesh and have drank of His blood?

"This is My flesh and blood; do this often in remembrance of Me."

That is what we call "communion" -- have I partaken of communion as Scripture describes it? Yes.

So, in figurative language, I take it that that you claim and believe that you have eaten of Jesus’ blood and have drank of His blood. Though you take that to be what you call “communion”.

Before I comment, may I know what is that “communion” you refer to? That I may know how you got to eat of His flesh and got to drink of blood?

Tong
R4756

 

[GRACE ambassador]

Precious friend(s): Quite IMPOSSIBLE For JESUS "to lose those" HE Has
'ETERNALLY' Saved ForEverMore!: Amen?

God's OPERATION On All HIS New-born babes In CHRIST!
God's Eternal Assurance

 

[Gregory]

Born of God, alive in Christ, who will undo that????

You are the only one that can undo that if you quit believing in Jesus Christ as your Savior. Jesus will not allow you to enter into his kingdom if you do not believe in him, and or fight against him. Just think for one moment.

If you confess Christ, and Jesus saves you, and then you turn from Christ and fight against him, you think he is still going to give you a place in his kingdom. No!

 

[marks]

You are the only one that can undo that if you quit believing in Jesus Christ as your Savior. Jesus will not allow you to enter into his kingdom if you do not believe in him, and or fight against him. Just think for one moment.

If you confess Christ, and Jesus saves you, and then you turn from Christ and fight against him, you think he is still going to give you a place in his kingdom. No!

Do you wish to debate this?

Much love!

 

[marks]

You are the only one that can undo that if you quit believing in Jesus Christ as your Savior.

Galatians 2:16 KJV
16) Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

How would you describe or define our justification in Christ? I define it as being rendered righteous in both judicial decree, the forgiveness of sins, and in newness of life, being raised with Christ, a new righteous creation. I see this in several places, perhaps Romans 6 is most detailed.

Your thoughts?

Much love!

 

[Tong2020]

You are the only one that can undo that if you quit believing in Jesus Christ as your Savior. Jesus will not allow you to enter into his kingdom if you do not believe in him, and or fight against him. Just think for one moment.

If you confess Christ, and Jesus saves you, and then you turn from Christ and fight against him, you think he is still going to give you a place in his kingdom. No!

You can undo what? You having been created anew by God in Christ Jesus? You having been born again (from above)?

If you really believe that, well,…. but I don’t.

Tong
R4758

 

[quietthinker]

OSAS....only sinners are saved!

 

[VictoryinJesus]

OSAS.

Its better not to give opinions on this term.... so, let me show you what it actually means and why.

First, lets see what the Devil has done..
Because, if we can see this, then we can escape the corrupted idea that is used by the deceived to wrongly define this term :OSAS.

See, the issue is not the term OSAS.......its with the people who are deceived into the wrong idea, regarding its actual and true meaning.

Now Think !

Who saved you?
What saved you?
How are you saved?
How are you kept saved?

There is only one answer to these questions, and the answer is.....The Blood of Jesus.
ITs the Blood of Jesus that God uses to redeem you.
Its the Blood of Jesus that takes care of all your sin, including tomorrows works of the flesh that you'll commit.
Its ONLY the Blood of Jesus that IS the reason that God will take you and keep you.
Its the spiritual and literal application of the Blood of Jesus that IS the ONLY reason you'll end up in heaven, or not.

So, how are you saved? ???
You are saved BY the Blood of Jesus, through the Holy Spirit.
"Jesus having offered his BLOOD, once, entered into the Holy Place".
This same God manifested in the flesh Jesus, who has shed his Blood, is now "making intercession" for you in heaven, if you are born again.
Jesus's BLOOD is your eternal pardon and your eternal intercession.
The BLood of Jesus that was shed 2000+ yrs ago, is saving you TOMORROW and next year.
"What can wash away my SIN". A.) Nothing but the Blood of Jesus.

Before you were born again....What was keeping you from being accepted by God?
A.) your SIN.

Q.) What has paid for all your sin? A.) The Blood of Jesus.

Final analysis,= you are saved by the Blood, keep saved by the Blood, and its the Blood Atonement that is your Salvation.

Jesus said......this is my BODY i give for you....And at some point you'll get a new one that is Just like His Eternal Body.
Jesus said...This is my blood that is shed for you....And that BLOOD is WHY you'll get a new body. That BLood is why you belong to God if you are born again.
That BLOOD is why you are KEPT by God if you are born again.
A.) No other reason.

Commandments are not your salvation.
The cult of mary is not your salvation.
THe baptist, methodist, assembly of God, or your church membership is not why God will take you and keep you.
Being dunked or sprinkled in or by the city water supply is NOT your salvation.
What is your Salvation?
A.) THE BLOOD OF JESUS.
Without the shedding of God's Blood, (Jesus) there IS NO Salvation.

So, how many times is this Blood applied to you?
It's applied to you once. = When you are born again.
You are "new birthed" BY this Blood, through the Holy Spirit.
How many times?
A.) ONCE.
So, how many times are you saved? = ONCE.
You are saved exactly as many times as you are born again.
You are born again, ONCE.

Now, how does the devil try to confuse this reality.??
Well, what he did, was.....what he does is.......he created the lie that the Grace of God, is being taught as a lie, if God is being given all the Credit for Salvation.
Let me try that one again, as i can hear the brain cells spinning in the distance..

The devil's Gospel is = anti- saved - once.
The devil's Gospel is = anti- God did it, and you get it for free.
the devil's Gospel is anti- ....= anything that does not allow you to try to keep yourself saved by yourself, by your works, by your water, by your LIST.

Understand?

So, God's Grace, is anti- what Satan teaches through his deceived as salvation.
The devil's gospel is..... "god started it, but you finish it".
The devil's gospel is... "keep yourself saved by self effort".

So, that is exactly the opposite of God's salvation.

Now look at this term. OSAS.

OSAS, literally mean, once you are born again, you are always born again.
That's what it mean's literally.

ONCE Jesus saved you with his Blood, you are kept saved always BY the same Blood.

See how OSAS is teaching that Salvation is all of God, based only on Jesus and His Blood, and has nothing to do with the devil's gospel of "self saving" and "keeping yourself saved" ???

OSAS, simple means....."once you are born again, you are always born again".
OSAS, simple means....."once you are born again, you are always born again".
OSAS, simple means....."once you are born again, you are always born again".
OSAS, simple means....."once you are born again, you are always born again".

The devil disputes this, and his deceived dispute this.... because he bases his deceived idea of salvation on you trying to keep your salvation, or you trying to earn it. And that is what the devil's deceived teach.

Whereas God's salvation is always, a "GIFT". "The Gift of Salvation".. "The GIFT of Righteousness".
"As many as Received Jesus.....God GAVE GAVE GAVE".
"For God so loved the world that He GAVE GAVE GAVE".
THAT is Salvation.
its GOD GIVING IT.
THAT IS OSAS.

Now finally...

What the devil has his people do, is confront God's Grace, challenge it, dispute it, and mock it...... and try to subvert it with the idea that God's Grace, when taught as a GIFT, is..."License to sin, or Cheap Grace, or easy believism".
That's the Devil's lie, and his liars are all over forums, all over pulpits, and all over the world.
They are "fallen from Grace" and they are enemies of the Cross.
So.....we see the error of the deception.....or as Paul and Jude taught...These liars, these devil deceived, try to replace the Grace and "Gift of God", with the idea that this Gift is a "license to sin", if you teach it correctly....which is to teach that God's Salvation is all of God, given as a gift, and God will keep you, by His power, and His Grace, once you are born again.

That's how the devil views it, and that is how his deceived will also teach it.
They will always teach that Grace is "License to sin", that Salvation is all about you doing something, vs, God having done something for you, as a GIFT.
And this GIFT, is OSAS.
Its, once you are born again, you are always born again.

OSAS…for me it is the angst of when is ‘once saved always saved’ in if you endure?

but also ‘Once saved always saved’ has a pretty strong point as valid (Imo) in His lovinginkindness is everlasting. let the redeemed of the Lord say so, whom he has redeemed from the hand of the enemy Psalm 107:1-2

1) His lovingkindness is everlasting…sounds like His forgiveness, mercy grace doesn’t give up but is long-suffering and endures. Not His lovingkindness quits.

2) Let the redeemed of the Lord say so, whom He has redeemed out of the hand of the enemy.
It doesn’t say let the redeemed of the Lord, those redeemed out of the hand of the enemy say the enemy can at any point snatch, pluck ‘those redeemed of the Lord’ back out from the Lord’s keeping everlasting watch…

3) I definitely don’t want to question if His lovingkindness and mercy is everlasting. In discrediting as everlasting, the Hope …as an anchor both sure and steadfast and which entereth into that within the veil; Hebrews 6:18-20

 

[GRACE ambassador]

You are the only one that can undo that if you quit believing in Jesus Christ as your Savior.

Precious friend, I {finite, puny man} can undo What God
{Infinite SUPERIOR Being} Has Done, Finished, And Completed!?

Surely you CAN'T be UNbiblically serious, or can you? Do you not yet understand:

The Biblical Purpose of God's ALL-Sufficient BLOOD!???

 

[marks]

You can undo what? You having been created anew by God in Christ Jesus? You having been born again (from above)?

If you really believe that, well,…. but I don’t.

Tong
R4758

Those who stop believing they were born from their mother we consider to be insane, basically.

Ascribing that same potential of insanity to the new creation is, in my opinion, to transfer the properties and potential of the old man, the Adamic creation, to the new man, the child of God.

I used to volunteer in a dementia ward in a local assisted living home, and I learned, while the body decays, the spirit does not. They'd forget who they are, where they are, but they always knew Who Jesus is.

Much love!

 

[Gadgetere]

OSAS is in regard to HAVING RECEIVED Salvation through the Lords Works of CONVERSION.

OSAS (Once Saved Always Saved), or "OSNAS" (Once Saved Not necessarily Always Saved), is in regard to Scripture. The study travelled through Hebrews, chapters 2,

2:1-3"We must pay much closer attention to what we have heard, lest we drift away from it; ...how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation?"

3:1 "Therefore holy brethren, metochos-partners in a heavenly calling..."
3:8 "Do not harden your hearts as when they provoked Me (in the wilderness)"

3:12 "Take care, BRETHREN, lest there be in any of you an evil unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God
3:13 "But encourage one another ...lest any one OF YOU be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin
3:14 "For we are metochos-partners in Christ IF we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end

3:17-19 "Those in the wilderness were disobedient; we see they were not able to enter their rest because of unbelief"
4:11 "Therefore let us be diligent to enter (God's) rest, lest anyone FALL through following the same example of disobedience."
4:1 "Let us fear, lest, while a promise remains of entering God's rest, any of you should seem to have come short of it"

5:11-14 (you should be mature, on solid food, but you are still babes needing milk)
6:1-3 "therefore (let's not spend all our time preaching repentance to those who don't want to)
6:4-5 "for in the case of those who were enlightened, TASTED (salvation -- same word "geuomai" as 2:9 "Jesus tasted death"), were made metochos-PARTNERS of the Holy Spirit
6:6 "and FALLING AWAY (aorist-active-participle, fact!) it is adunatos/unable/powerless to restore them to repentance BECAUSE (or while!) they crucify Christ to themselves anew (by constant willful sin!), and hold Him to shame (contempt His sacrifice!)

6:7 "ONE field is tilled -- if it yields good fruit is is blessed..."
6:8 "but if it yields thorns it is cursed and ...burned"
6:11 "we desire each one of you to show the same diligence SO AS to realize the full assurance of hope until the end..."
6:12 "SO THAT you will not be sluggish BUT imitate those WHO by faith and patience inherit the Promises"

10:19-25 "Therefore BRETHREN, since we have confidence to enter the holy place ...let us draw near with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith ...let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering...

10:26-29 "For if WE continue sinning willfully after having received knowledge of the truth, there no LONGER remains a sacrifice for sins but a terrifying expectation of judgment and fury of fire... how much severer punishment will he deserve who has trampled Jesus, scorned the blood that (once) sanctified him and has insulted the Spirit?

10:35 "therefore do not throw away your confidence!" (our confidence is Jesus! Heb10:19)

12:2 "Let us lay aside the sin which so easily entangles us and run with endurance the race"

12:7 "IF we endure God's discipline, then He treats us as sons"
12:8 "But if we ARE WITHOUT (present tense!) His discipline, of which all HAVE BECOME metochos-partners (past tense!), then we are not sons but are illegitimate (present tense!)
12:9 "SHALL we not much rather BE subject to the Father of spirits, AND LIVE?
12:25 "Much less shall WE escape who turn away from God!"

12:15 "See that no one comes short of the grace of God"

13:9 "Do not be carried away by varied and strange teachings..."

What is your point you are trying to make, without saying it?

I admire your enthusiasm; yet, when confronted with an entire letter admonishing, chapter by chapter, "Don't fall from salvation", no OSAS person will interact with the verses and explain how they do not make that conspicuous warning. Can any of the "three understandings" be made to work?

1. They were never TRULY saved in the FIRST place.
2. They didn't really fall; maybe lost a few rewards, but not eternity itself.
3. It's not real, it's hyperbole/bugbear/fatherly-advice, it's effective means by which God KEEPS us saved​

They were "never-truly-saved", beloved-brethren-partners-of-the-Spirit? Impossible. They "never-fell-hard-unbelieving-heart-that-falls-away-from-God" ("falls and fails to enter God's rest by imitating Israel's disobedience and unbelief", "and-parapiptos-falling-away")? Again impossible. That leaves us with only "it's-not-real, effective-means" -- no, "and-falling-away" is a statement of fact -- in literally the same breath as "in-the-CASE-of-THOSE-WHO". not "Those-who-MIGHT-but-are-not-really".

So how can we make all of that fit any OSAS? Especially verses 12:7-9 --- we WERE partners in God's discipline, but if we now ARE NOT, then we ARE NOT sons but ARE ILLEGITIMATE; shall we not rather continue in (submission to) the Father of spirits, AND LIVE? Much less shall WE escape who turn away from God!"

"It's not talking to we-truly-saved-who-can't-turn-away". Or "one can turn-away-from-God-and-be-illegitimate-but-stay-saved!" Or it's "hyperbole, can't-really-happen-just-fatherly-advice-and-effective-means". Do any of those work? How?

But no OSAS person will interact with these; I would love to be wrong and have some respond...

 

[Triumph1300]

We can surely agree on one thing:

God loves backsliders.

 

[Gadgetere]

Born of God, alive in Christ, who will undo that????

Us.

12:7 "IF we endure God's discipline, then He treats us as sons"
12:8 "But if we ARE WITHOUT (present tense!) His discipline, of which all HAVE BECOME metochos-partners (past tense!), then we are not sons but are illegitimate (present tense!)
12:9 "SHALL we not much rather BE subject to the Father of spirits, AND LIVE?
12:25 "Much less shall WE escape who turn away from God!"

We have become partners in His discipline (past tense, "we were") --- but if we are without it (present tense, if now we are without), then we are not sons (present tense we are no longer sons) but are illegitimate (we WERE sons verse 7, but we are NO LONGER sons, UNBORN, verse 8)! Make a choice to continue as God's son or not, verse 9. The consequence in verse 25 for anyone who turns away from God!!!

1. They were never TRULY saved in the FIRST place.
2. They didn't really fall; maybe lost a few rewards, but not eternity itself.
3. It's not real, it's hyperbole/bugbear/fatherly-advice, it's effective means by which God KEEPS us saved
​

Can you do it? Make one of these "explanations" work? Or do you have a #4?​

 

[marks]

12:8 "But if we ARE WITHOUT (present tense!) His discipline, of which all HAVE BECOME metochos-partners (past tense!), then we are not sons but are illegitimate (present tense!)

All His sons are subject to His discipline, so if you are without His discipline, you are not His son.

This is the key question to ask here in interpreting this part:

". . . of which all have become", "all" signifying whom?

All of His sons.

If you endure God's discipline, God treats you as a son. All His sons have become partakers, all His sons endure discipline. But if you "are without", notice, not, "If you do not endure discipline", rather, "If you are without discipline", IF you are not disciplined, you are not a son.

This is not a passage that teaches a son can become not-a-son, rather, it teaches us, among other things, one difference between those who are and those who are not sons. The son endures disciple. The not-a-son is not disciplined.

To present this differently not only promotes a false use, but it takes away the real meaning from the passage.

Much love!

 

[Gadgetere]

At least now, it is clear, the powerlessness is on the person and not on any other else. So, in Hebrews 6:6, we now have the same understanding that the impossibility or powerlessness to be renewed to repentance is on the person.

Right; and in no way does that conflict Rom11, "they will be grafted in again if they do not continue in unbelief". Nor James5, "(if) he is led back from wandering-away-from-the-truth, his soul will be saved (again!) and his sins covered/forgiven".

The matter for you now to ponder about is what made it impossible for him or what rendered him powerless to be renewed to repentance.

Willful sin; Heb6:4-6 is identical to 10:26-29.

Do you not seem to contradict yourself there? On the first part you say the powerlessness is on the person, yet on the second part you say “they cannot be turned”. I think that you should say that ‘they cannot turn themselves to repentance’. Don’t you think so?

Nothing in there says or implies "they cannot be turned" -- they can, but not as long as they're enjoying their sin. It's identical to 2Pet2:20-22 --- the last state is worse than the first, better to have never KNOWN the way of righteousness than to have callously allowed themselves to disbelieve and turn back to vomit/mire.

In no sense can 2Pet2:18-22 "escapees", be cast as "never-truly-saved" -- the wording conspicuously declares they were. Nor can they be cast as "didn't-really-fall", they were called dogs and pigs by virtue of the vomit and mire in which they dwelt, there was a time when they were NOT dogs and pigs but then they were enticed back into defilements and were OVERCOME. They are more willfully unbelieving than those who never believed in the first place. What is a possible second understanding?

Having pointed that out, it is clear that the person cannot turn himself or is powerless to turn himself, from having been a true believer to a true unbeliever, unto repentance to be a true believer again.

Only powerless as long as they indulge in sin.

Now it seems to me that the reason you give that they cannot turn themselves to repentance is their willful sin. I am sorry, but that does not quite make sense to me. Besides, I see that to be nowhere said in Hebrews 6:6. What is there is this “…since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.”

By sinning over and over, it is as if they crucify Jesus to themselves over and over also.

This is identical to Rom2:4-5 -- "Do you count on God's patience kindness and forbearance, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? By your stubborn unrepenting heart you are storing up WRATH for yourselves..."

Is this a rebuke towards those who CANNOT change? No.

Dying over and over is not the point. For the death Jesus Christ died is a once and for all kind of death. The point being is that there is but no other Messiah or no other Jesus or no other Savior no other sacrifice.
<<<That is true…>>>

I take that as agreeing to what I said.

I thought you were agreeing that Jesus' sacrifice no longer covers those who walk in sin, because that is "unrepentance"...

<<<if we cease walking in Jesus (Col2:6-8), and walk again in sin (Rm8:12), we must die.>>>

What does Col. 2:6-8 and Romans 8:12 got to do with the truth of what I said which you agreed to?

Those verses plainly teach we must abide in salvation; nothing anyone has said here has changed that.

 

[marks]

Can you do it? Make one of these "explanations" work? Or do you have a #4?

So tell me again,

Colossians 3:1-4 KJV
1) If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
2) Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
3) For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
4) When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

How is it that some who have been raised with Christ might not appear with Him in glory?

So simple, so straightforward. No qualifiers, other than, if ye then be risen with Christ. The outcome is prophesied, and that prophecy will be fulfilled. No?

Much love!

 

[marks]

Us.

12:7 "IF we endure God's discipline, then He treats us as sons"
12:8 "But if we ARE WITHOUT (present tense!) His discipline, of which all HAVE BECOME metochos-partners (past tense!), then we are not sons but are illegitimate (present tense!)
12:9 "SHALL we not much rather BE subject to the Father of spirits, AND LIVE?
12:25 "Much less shall WE escape who turn away from God!"

We have become partners in His discipline (past tense, "we were") --- but if we are without it (present tense, if now we are without), then we are not sons (present tense we are no longer sons) but are illegitimate (we WERE sons verse 7, but we are NO LONGER sons, UNBORN, verse 8)! Make a choice to continue as God's son or not, verse 9. The consequence in verse 25 for anyone who turns away from God!!!

1. They were never TRULY saved in the FIRST place.
2. They didn't really fall; maybe lost a few rewards, but not eternity itself.
3. It's not real, it's hyperbole/bugbear/fatherly-advice, it's effective means by which God KEEPS us saved
​

Can you do it? Make one of these "explanations" work? Or do you have a #4?​

So then since it turns out this is speaking of something different, did you have something else in mind of how you think we would undo a spiritual rebirth that we didn't do in the first place, and don't cause to continue in the current moment? How exactly is it we have that kind of power over our state of being? I don't see that. Can we equally just "lay down" our physical life? Will ourselves to die, and drop dead?

Much love!

 

[Gadgetere]

All His sons are subject to His discipline, so if you are without His discipline, you are not His son.

This is the key question to ask here in interpreting this part:

". . . of which all have become", "all" signifying whom?

All of His sons.

No, we cannot break context -- IF we submit to His discipline, THEN He treats us as sons, for what son is not disciplined by his father? We were subject to God's discipline (therefore we were His sons!), but if we are now WITHOUT His discipline then we are not sons but illegitimate (even though WE WERE SONS)!

In what Universe does this not clearly express possible "movement", from "submitted-and-SONS", to "unsubmitted-and-sons-no-longer"? Unadopted! What is possible meaning #2?

And in context with the entire rest of the letter, it is consistently warning against "falling-from-salvationn".

If you endure God's discipline, God treats you as a son. All His sons have become partakers, all His sons endure discipline. But if you "are without", notice, not, "If you do not endure discipline", rather, "If you are without discipline", IF you are not disciplined, you are not a son.
1. You were subject
2. If you are not subject
3. Then you are not sons
4. ...even though you were
5. Shall we not much rather CONTINUE ...and live?
6. Much less shall WE escape who turn away from God

Please explain why it is NOT plainly saying "us-sons-can-turn-away-and-become-illegitimate-and-not-escape"?

This is not a passage that teaches a son can become not-a-son, rather, it teaches us, among other things, one difference between those who are and those who are not sons. The son endures disciple. The not-a-son is not disciplined.

Yes he was -- "you HAVE BECOME", past tense.

If ye are without chastening (ε χωρις εστε παιδειας). Condition of first class, determined as fulfilled. Note position of εστε (are) between the preposition χωρις and παιδειας (ablative case).

Have been made (γεγονασιν). Perfect active indicative of γινομα.

Partakers (μετοχο). Partners (Hebrews 3:14 (NAS)
14 For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end,
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" tooltipenable="true" style="box-sizing: border-box; color: rgb(200, 83, 53); font-weight: 700; cursor: pointer;">Hebrews 3:14).

Then (αρα). Accordingly, correspondingly.

Bastards (νοθο). Old word, here only in N.T. Illegitimate.

Robertson says "perfect active indicative", lexicon says "second perfect"; Robertson agrees "have-been-made", a past event.

To present this differently not only promotes a false use, but it takes away the real meaning from the passage.

I look forward to your thoughts on Robertson, context, and the whole letter of Hebrews...

 

[Gadgetere]

So tell me again,

Colossians 3:1-4 KJV
1) If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
2) Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
3) For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
4) When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

How is it that some who have been raised with Christ might not appear with Him in glory?

So simple, so straightforward. No qualifiers, other than, if ye then be risen with Christ. The outcome is prophesied, and that prophecy will be fulfilled. No?

No, you can't reply as if "one verse allows us to just MARK OUT other verses" --- what is the intended meaning of the verses I cited?

 

[marks]

No, you can't reply as if "one verse allows us to just MARK OUT other verses" --- what is the intended meaning of the verses I cited?

I understand why you are reluctant to answer.

Naturally one Scripture will not cancel another, and this one is extremely clearly worded.

I answered you re Hebrews 12, now you answer me.

So tell me again,

Colossians 3:1-4 KJV
1) If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
2) Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
3) For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
4) When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

How is it that some who have been raised with Christ might not appear with Him in glory?

So simple, so straightforward. No qualifiers, other than, if ye then be risen with Christ. The outcome is prophesied, and that prophecy will be fulfilled. No?

Much love!