OSAS.... what does this really mean ?

[Gadgetere]

Jude 1:20 But you, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit, 21 keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

If you take that as admonition than it is a contrast and distinction of them from those that Jude speaks about in vs. 4,8,10-17,19, that is your call, and it is so with you then.

What's possible meaning #2? KEEP YOURSELVES in the love of God -- that would never be said unless there was a possibility of NOT keeping.

<<<...the possibility of not-keeping is clearly in view...>>>

In your take perhaps. But I don’t see that at all in the writings of Jude there.

“But you” (hymeis de) in vs.17 & 20, is a comparative phrase. And I take it like so.


Let me quote the passage to see exactly what it says:

21 And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled 22 in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight— 23 if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister.

Paul was not speaking about the Christian's personal conduct, but about his or her position in Christ.

Our being reconciled is conditioned on "continuing in the faith steadfast, and not being moved away from Jesus".

<<<We are reconciled through Jesus IF WE CONTINUE in the faith firm ...and not be moved away from Jesus! Why do you think Paul wrote that?>>>

"If" introduces a condition that qualifies what he said for it to be meaningfully true, that, reconciled to God. Paul by it, assumed his readers would do what he described in v.23 because such is normal for genuine believers (see 2 Cor. 5:17; Phil. 1:6; 1 John 2:19). For it is what they made to be, now already a new creation in Christ Jesus.

You quote 2Cor5:17 -- but verse 20 plainly says, "We beg you to BE reconciled to Christ!"

Paul wrote that so that the true believers may know their position in Christ and what it is that is expected in them.

Why bother? What's the consequence?

Nope. It is not what empowered their disassociation, that is the question. Hebrews 6:4-6 as I pointed out clearly tells us of the impossibility of being renewed to repentance. In other words, there is no such thing as a saved person unto eternal life, being unsaved and being saved again.

It doesn't say impossible; it says "powerless/impotent". The Greek uses "present active participle", crucifying. Robertson comments, "This is the reason why renewal for such apostates is impossible. They crucify Christ."

They crucify Him to themselves anew each time they sin and don't repent; one who walks in repentance, only sees one crucifixion of Jesus.

 

[marks]

No, we cannot break context -- IF we submit to His discipline, THEN He treats us as sons, for what son is not disciplined by his father? We were subject to God's discipline (therefore we were His sons!), but if we are now WITHOUT His discipline then we are not sons but illegitimate (even though WE WERE SONS)!

This is the part you add, and is not supported by the text, and is rather denied as per what I wrote.

Another added word . . .

This word for some reason you changed. If you want to have detailed discussions and even debates about Scripture but change it's words, what's to be said about that? But I can imagine you may have felt your point needed some additional strengthening.

This part you've just tucked in there as if it were part of what was being said, but it's not. It's more towards your assertion, rendering a circular argument. Returning to the actual text;

Hebrews 12:7-9 KJV
7) If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
8) But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
9) Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

Very simply stated, if you "be without chastisement", then you are "not sons".

Now, answer me,

1 John 3:1-2 KJV
1) Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
2) Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

Being His sons now, we know that when He appears we will be like Him.

Do you in fact know that?

Do you see how my questions are simple and come straight from the Bible? Can you give an equally simple answer? Yes, or No?

Much love!

 

[Gadgetere]

What do you mean by “turn back to sin”? Do you mean as to cease to believe in God and in Jesus Christ and in the gospel?

To walk in sin, is to disbelieve Jesus. It is as as Heb3 says, "hardened by deceitful sin to an unbelieving heart that falls away from God". No OSAS person can interact with words like these...

If you mean that, your question would be invalid to me. For as I pointed out, Hebrews 6:4-6 clearly tells us of the impossibility of being renewed to repentance ~ a thing that could only apply to true believers. In other words, there is no such thing as a saved person unto eternal life, being unsaved and being saved unto eternal life again. And to make that sound even worst or absurd, speaks of being unsaved again and being saved again, and on and on it goes.

Heb6 (like the rest of the letter, which no one here is willing to engage), warns against falling away. Hence, "You need DILIGENCE!"

And 6:4-6 does not say "it is forever impossible of restoring them to repentance" -- if so, then we'd have to mark out James5:19-20, Rev2, and many other passages.

Why do you even bring that up and ask that when I am not even saying that those “partnered-in-the-Holy-Spirit" are unsaved?

The conspicuous wording "partnered-in-the-Spirit", are saved; but they have fallen away, and because of willful sin will not want to repent.

1. They were saved (partnered with the Spirit)
2. They have fallen away (fact, "in the case of THOSE WHO")
3. OSAS cannot be bent to fit these verses

<<<Those in Heb6:4-6 were saved, until they were "parapiptos-falling-away" (perhaps "having fallen").>>>

That is the presumption. For the writer of Hebrews could only presume that they all are true believers.

I'm sorry, there is movement; we cannot make "partnered-with-the-Spirit", into "never-true-believers".

I am not even saying that those “partnered-in-the-Holy-Spirit" are unsaved?

I'm glad we agree that they were saved, but have fallen from salvation.

But like us, we do not know if all are true believers. But whether all are or not, does not change the point of the writer. That it is impossible for true believers to be renewed again to repentance, if it were that a true believer falls away.

Nope -- some who turn back to sin are "worse than before they were saved" (2Pet2:20-22), some "can be saved again" (James5:19-20, Rom11:18-23). Who decides which each person is? Each person himself does. "From BEGINNING faith to ENDING faith". Rm1:17.

<<<the godly qualities are not optional>>>

Not optional for what? For one’s salvation unto eternal life? If that is what you are referring to, perhaps you might want to read 2 Peter 1 again and study that. It is about Christian growth.

Nonsense; he who LACKS those qualities ...has forgotten purification from former sins. Is he "impure-still-saved"? Never. Was he "never-saved-but-formerly-purified"? There is no purification apart from salvation in Jesus. Against this bad example, we are admonished to "therefore make our calling and election stable/firm, ...in THIS way the gates of eternity will BE (abundantly) provided to us."

What make certain about His calling and election doe not mean, is that by pursuing Christian growth, we give evidence that God really did call and choose us. The uncalled and unchosen have no desire to become useful and fruitful by growing in the true knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

NO! This is an important point with me! Will you go to the Greek?
spoudazō Be-diligent
poieō to-make
hymōn your
klēsis calling
kai and
eklogē election
bebaios fast/stable

King James:

Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:​

FALL! In context, NOT be provided the gates of God's kingdom!

Only if believers add to their faith the character qualities Peter describes will God add to him a rich entrance to the kingdom. Heavenly reward, not salvation from hell, is the subject here. For so some does enter the kingdom, not having such rich entrance, but so as through fire.

Wow -- "If they ADD to their saved-but-ungodly/immoral/unloving/unkind-faith, then they will ABUNDANTLY be entered into eternity; but if they STAY immoral/ungodly/unloving/ignorant they will receive a SPARSE/FIERY-ENTRANCE-into-eternity-with-God!"

You believe that? Ungodly/immoral/ignorant/unloving-SAVED, is absolutely called "Antinomianism/Gnosticism". Destroyed by 1Cor6:9-11, Eph5:5-6, Gal5:19-21, 1Jn especially 3:5-10, and many more!

The writer of Hebrews tells us the kind of “spiritual immaturity” in those to whom he writes to in Hebrews in Hebrews 5:12-14, 6:1-2.

Paul also gives as an idea of those who are babes in Christ in 1 Cor.3:1-4.

Immature, carnal, walking-in-sin, fornicating drunken carousing stealing murdering SAVED.

Antinomianism.

"If anyone be in Christ he is a NEW CREATION, the old has passed away and all have become new." And what Eve was told in the Garden, "Oh don't worry about sinful things, you won't really die."

Rom8, "If we walk after the flesh to satisfy its lusts, we must die!"

Not really? Yes, really....

 

[Gadgetere]

Thank you.

So then why don't you consider this a settled matter?

Because what that passage says, without any ambiguity, is that if you've been raised with Christ, you've also died with Him, and you will appear with Him in glory.

You ignored the other cited verses. It says (without ambiguity) that if we do NOT keep ourselves in Him, guarding against deception, we will not reign with Him!

So . . . have you been raised with Christ? Has this happened with you? If so, then why would you think you won't appear with Christ in glory?

You talk about an ongoing choice . . . where is that in this passage?

I'm not going to repeat the posts; please scan back and engage the verses.

You have not pointed to something in this passage about an ongoing choosing. The passage is directive towards those who have been raised with Him, and teaches about those ones.

It's a simple statement, "If this is you, then that's going to happen."

It seems to me that though you answer "yes", that in fact you do not believe it. Because you keep telling people that even if they've been raised with Christ, having died, that they might actually NOT appear with Him. And apparently you chalk that up to their "making bad choices" or something like that.

It seems to me you teach in direct contradiction to this passage.

With respect, having specific verses cited to you but ignoring them, then selecting verses you perceive as supporting a view, is called "cherry-picking". All Scripture is inspired by God, and we're not allowed to discard anything.

I just repeated the "All-of-Hebrews" post, I would love it if you would let me see through your eyes as you read that post.

Fair enough?

 

[marks]

Fair enough?

You in fact are not answering my questions. You are being asked very simple questions about very straightforward Scriptures, and you are not answering.

Should you decide to come back to it, we can continue. But I've asked simple questions concerning to passages, and I'm looking for answers that match the question in simplicity, yes or no should be fine for both.

Much love!

 

[Gadgetere]

1 John 3:1-3 KJV
1) Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
2) Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3) And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

What exactly can we know and not know?

We know that if we do not guard ourselves against deceivers, we can "shrink-in-shame" at His coming (which is not compatible with "being saved"), 1Jn2:26-28.

We know that if we do not guard ourselves against deceivers we can lose what we have wrought, for anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teachings has not God; he who abides has the Father, and the Son. 2Jn1:7-9

Anything ambiguous about those, Marks?

 

[marks]

We know that if we do not guard ourselves against deceivers, we can "shrink-in-shame" at His coming (which is not compatible with "being saved"), 1Jn2:26-28.

We know that if we do not guard ourselves against deceivers we can lose what we have wrought, for anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teachings has not God; he who abides has the Father, and the Son. 2Jn1:7-9

Anything ambiguous about those, Marks?

Again . . . a non-answer. You avoid my question. But I know why. That's why I ask the question I do. These are two passages that are intrinsically incompatible to your assertion.

You can't answer that you believe them as written, because as written, they deny what you teach. But you will not confront that head on, and instead continue to deflect.

You post is an attempt to "play Scripture against Scripture", as you string together some paraphrases intended to paint some picture as if it denies the simplicity of the passages I'm posting. And there are more like them.

Of course there is an all-time favorite, "He who began a good work in you shall complete it until the day of Christ Jesus". Do you believe this is true? Another one of those pesky "yes or no" questions.

Perhaps, Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith. Is He? The finisher? Or not? What say you?

Much love!

 

[marks]

2Jn1:7-9

2 John 1:5-9 KJV
5) And now I beseech thee, lady, not as though I wrote a new commandment unto thee, but that which we had from the beginning, that we love one another.
6) And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.
7) For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
8) Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.
9) Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

The question is answered within the passage.

You've stated,

We know that if we do not guard ourselves against deceivers we can lose what we have wrought, for anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teachings has not God; he who abides has the Father, and the Son. 2Jn1:7-9

You imply here that what we lose is God. We can lose what we've worked for, did we work to obtain God? But again the context tells us, our full reward. We may not receive our full reward, which is what we work for. Not salvation. We do not work to obtain salvation.

But to the one who says we may lose our salvation, then yes, that would mean we do work for it.

The one who doesn't abide, well, they aren't there. Not saved.

Much love!

 

[Taken]

But no OSAS person will interact with these; I would love to be wrong and have some respond...

OSAS persons have interacted with you.

So, instead of wondering what others think and believe.

Why don't you speak directly to what you believe about salvation and why?

 

[Lifelong_sinner]

OSAS is Biblical. Anyone teaching something other than this is a false teacher. End of story.

 

[Michiah-Imla]

OSAS is Biblical. Anyone teaching something other than this is a false teacher. End of story.

OSAS is Un-Biblical. Anyone teaching this is a false teacher. End of story.

 

[marks]

OSAS is Biblical. Anyone teaching something other than this is a false teacher. End of story.

OSAS is Un-Biblical. Anyone teaching this is a false teacher. End of story.

And that's how that works!



Much love!

 

[Lifelong_sinner]

And that's how that works!



Much love!

so the question that comes out of this that is the more important question, how do different denominations deal with each other?? You have me, a calvinist presbyterian, trying to talk to odd balls like the pentecostals and catholics, and clearly we are far apart on our doctrine.
When i ask myself this question, what i come up with is, Its ok to talk about non religious stuff, but me talking about doctrine with non calvinist presbyterians goes about the same as if i went to one of their church sermons, IE. not at all. And i have no use for quarreling with others. So the best course of action, is for me as i had been doing for the last couple of weeks, to simply stay away from this place.

 

[marks]

so the question that comes out of this that is the more important question, how do different denominations deal with each other?? You have me, a calvinist presbyterian, trying to talk to odd balls like the pentecostals and catholics, and clearly we are far apart on our doctrine.
When i ask myself this question, what i come up with is, Its ok to talk about non religious stuff, but me talking about doctrine with non calvinist presbyterians goes about the same as if i went to one of their church sermons, IE. not at all. And i have no use for quarreling with others. So the best course of action, is for me as i had been doing for the last couple of weeks, to simply stay away from this place.

I've found pretty much anyone who names the Name of Jesus Christ, I'm able to serve alongside in complete fellowship. I think this is one way we can have unity.

Much love!

 

[Michiah-Imla]

You have me, a calvinist presbyterian, trying to talk to odd balls like the pentecostals and catholics, and clearly we are far apart on our doctrine.

I’m not Pentecostal or Catholic or a part of any other named (trademarked) organization out there.

I am a saint, a believer, a disciple, a follower of Christ and his Apostles.

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
At least now, it is clear, the powerlessness is on the person and not on any other else. So, in Hebrews 6:6, we now have the same understanding that the impossibility or powerlessness to be renewed to repentance is on the person.

Right; and in no way does that conflict Rom11, "they will be grafted in again if they do not continue in unbelief". Nor James5, "(if) he is led back from wandering-away-from-the-truth, his soul will be saved (again!) and his sins covered/forgiven".

Who will be grafted in again should they not continue in unbelief, according to Romans 11? Individuals or Israel as a nation?

Also, may I ask, has the fullness of the Gentiles already came in?

The matter for you now to ponder about is what made it impossible for him or what rendered him powerless to be renewed to repentance.

Willful sin; Heb6:4-6 is identical to 10:26-29.

At least you do not object to what the scriptures says in Hebrews 6:6, concerning the impossibility or powerlessness of the individual, that is, he could not, he cannot, renew himself again to repentance.

Do you not seem to contradict yourself there? On the first part you say the powerlessness is on the person, yet on the second part you say “they cannot be turned”. I think that you should say that ‘they cannot turn themselves to repentance’. Don’t you think so?

Nothing in there says or implies "they cannot be turned" -- they can, but not as long as they're enjoying their sin. It's identical to 2Pet2:20-22 --- the last state is worse than the first, better to have never KNOWN the way of righteousness than to have callously allowed themselves to disbelieve and turn back to vomit/mire.

In no sense can 2Pet2:18-22 "escapees", be cast as "never-truly-saved" -- the wording conspicuously declares they were. Nor can they be cast as "didn't-really-fall", they were called dogs and pigs by virtue of the vomit and mire in which they dwelt, there was a time when they were NOT dogs and pigs but then they were enticed back into defilements and were OVERCOME. They are more willfully unbelieving than those who never believed in the first place. What is a possible second understanding?

<<<Nothing in there says or implies "they cannot be turned" -- they can, but not as long as they're enjoying their sin.>>>

Not what can be read in Hebrews 6:6. Powerless = can not. The condition you have there is nowhere found in the passage under consideration.

Regarding 2Pet2:20-22, the context is about false brethren (false prophets, false teachers). You know what false brethren are, don’t you?

Having pointed that out, it is clear that the person cannot turn himself or is powerless to turn himself, from having been a true believer to a true unbeliever, unto repentance to be a true believer again.

Only powerless as long as they indulge in sin.

Yes, that is what you say. I don’t see anywhere in the Hebrews 6:4-6 passage having such condition.

Now it seems to me that the reason you give that they cannot turn themselves to repentance is their willful sin. I am sorry, but that does not quite make sense to me. Besides, I see that to be nowhere said in Hebrews 6:6. What is there is this “…since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.”

By sinning over and over, it is as if they crucify Jesus to themselves over and over also.

This is identical to Rom2:4-5 -- "Do you count on God's patience kindness and forbearance, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? By your stubborn unrepenting heart you are storing up WRATH for yourselves..."

Is this a rebuke towards those who CANNOT change? No.

<<<By sinning over and over, it is as if they crucify Jesus to themselves over and over also.>>>

Again that understanding is not nowhere found in Hebrews 6:6. Yet, that is what you say. That position and view raises to me the question, when we were yet unconverted, were we not sinning over and over? Do we by that as though we crucify Jesus Christ to ourselves all over again and again? Did we by that, were powerless or not, to bring ourselves to repentance?

Regarding Romans 2:4-5, may I ask, who do you say is the “you” in verse 4 that Paul refers to?

Dying over and over is not the point. For the death Jesus Christ died is a once and for all kind of death. The point being is that there is but no other Messiah or no other Jesus or no other Savior no other sacrifice.
<<<That is true…>>>

I take that as agreeing to what I said.

I thought you were agreeing that Jesus' sacrifice no longer covers those who walk in sin, because that is "unrepentance"...

Nope. If you go back and read my post concerning that, I did not. In fact, the death Christ died, he died not when we believed and because we believed, but it is when while we were sinners, walking in the lust of our flesh. If that were the case, and it is, how can we think of His sacrifice as to not cover those whom he died for when they were waking in sin before, just because they commit the error of walking in sin after He saved them? Do we easily forget that He saved them, to keep them, transform them, discipline them, and bring them home to the Father?

<<<if we cease walking in Jesus (Col2:6-8), and walk again in sin (Rm8:12), we must die.>>>

What does Col. 2:6-8 and Romans 8:12 got to do with the truth of what I said which you agreed to?

Those verses plainly teach we must abide in salvation; nothing anyone has said here has changed that.

Why does it sound when you say that, as though it is the individual who keep himself saved, if indeed he is saved?

Tong
R4774

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
Jude 1:20 But you, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit, 21 keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

If you take that as admonition than it is a contrast and distinction of them from those that Jude speaks about in vs. 4,8,10-17,19, that is your call, and it is so with you then.

What's possible meaning #2? KEEP YOURSELVES in the love of God -- that would never be said unless there was a possibility of NOT keeping.

That is what happens when one improperly reads scriptures. Verse 21 is not a sentence on its own. It is part of the whole sentence which starts from verse 20. Verse 20-21 is one sentence structure. And here is the complete sentence of Jude.

“ But you, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit, keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.”

The thought is that, by their building themselves up on their faith, their praying in the Holy Spirit, such keep themselves in the love of God. He said this in contrast to what those he refers to in verse 4 were doing.

<<<...the possibility of not-keeping is clearly in view...>>>

In your take perhaps. But I don’t see that at all in the writings of Jude there.

“But you” (hymeis de) in vs.17 & 20, is a comparative phrase. And I take it like so.


Let me quote the passage to see exactly what it says:

21 And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled 22 in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight— 23 if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister.

Paul was not speaking about the Christian's personal conduct, but about his or her position in Christ.

Our being reconciled is conditioned on "continuing in the faith steadfast, and not being moved away from Jesus".

If there be any condition of our being reconciled, it is not on that, but in what Jesus had done at the cross for us.

<<<We are reconciled through Jesus IF WE CONTINUE in the faith firm ...and not be moved away from Jesus! Why do you think Paul wrote that?>>>

"If" introduces a condition that qualifies what he said for it to be meaningfully true, that, reconciled to God. Paul by it, assumed his readers would do what he described in v.23 because such is normal for genuine believers (see 2 Cor. 5:17; Phil. 1:6; 1 John 2:19). For it is what they made to be, now already a new creation in Christ Jesus.

You quote 2Cor5:17 -- but verse 20 plainly says, "We beg you to BE reconciled to Christ!"

So? It is not as if verse 20 explains away the truth that the saved believer is now a new creature in Christ Jesus, having been created anew by God, and having been reconciled to God by God through Jesus Christ.

Paul wrote that so that the true believers may know their position in Christ and what it is that is expected in them.

Why bother? What's the consequence?

I am a bit surprised that you find what Paul said in Col.1:23 as sort of insignificant.

Obviously for their knowing and awareness of the grace that they are in. Giving them such knowledge provides them some basis where each can check himself if he is in the faith or not.

Nope. It is not what empowered their disassociation, that is the question. Hebrews 6:4-6 as I pointed out clearly tells us of the impossibility of being renewed to repentance. In other words, there is no such thing as a saved person unto eternal life, being unsaved and being saved again.

It doesn't say impossible; it says "powerless/impotent". The Greek uses "present active participle", crucifying. Robertson comments, "This is the reason why renewal for such apostates is impossible. They crucify Christ."

They crucify Him to themselves anew each time they sin and don't repent; one who walks in repentance, only sees one crucifixion of Jesus.

That they are powerless/impotent renders the impossibility for them to renew themselves again to repentance.

Well you can believe Robertsons if you like, as you seem to do, over what scriptures says.

If at all when one sins, they crucify Christ to themselves over again and as often as they sin, then all who sins are doing that, and are all then rendered powerless to renew themselves again to repentance.

Tong
R4775

 

[Taken]

I understand why you are reluctant to answer.

Naturally one Scripture will not cancel another, and this one is extremely clearly worded.

I answered you re Hebrews 12, now you answer me.

So tell me again,

Colossians 3:1-4 KJV
1) If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
2) Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
3) For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
4) When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

How is it that some who have been raised with Christ might not appear with Him in glory?

So simple, so straightforward. No qualifiers, other than, if ye then be risen with Christ. The outcome is prophesied, and that prophecy will be fulfilled. No?

Much love!

Yes.....
"IF"...."THEN"...."shall ye".
"IF".... "NOT" .... unnecessay to say.

 

[Taken]

So how can we make all of that fit any OSAS? Especially verses 12:7-9 --- we WERE partners in God's discipline, but if we now ARE NOT, then we ARE NOT sons but ARE ILLEGITIMATE; shall we not rather continue in (submission to) the Father of spirits, AND LIVE? Much less shall WE escape who turn away from God!"

"It's not talking to we-truly-saved-who-can't-turn-away". Or "one can turn-away-from-God-and-be-illegitimate-but-stay-saved!" Or it's "hyperbole, can't-really-happen-just-fatherly-advice-and-effective-means". Do any of those work? How?

But no OSAS person will interact with these; I would love to be wrong and have some respond...

You are asking for A Born Again Christian...
To justify "Having Received" his Secured gift of Salvation...

By Comparing a A Born Again Christian;
...To WHOM exactly?
...WHO is the primary Audience in the Book of Hebrews?
HEBREWS ? Jews?

* It is my view, the Book of Hebrews, was primarily written TO and ABOUT Jews....
* and by all Appearances, The Book of Hebrews, is written TO Jews....
* WHOSE: long time history was IN Mosaic Law.
* WHOSE: knowledge of Christ Jesus Presence ON Earth, was Fairly RECENT knowlege they were Hearing and Learning ABOUT.
* WHOSE: primary domicile WAS outside of Palestine, Jerusalem, (ie the heart of the most prominate beginning location and teachings of Jesus).

The 13 chapters of the Book of Hebrews gives us clues, to WHOM the Audience was...
....nearly 31 times a reference TO the OT, Mosaic Laws.
....mention of their historical and even present persecutions "for" their belief IN GOD.
(Heb 10:32 +)
....mention of learning the Truth, then falling away
(Heb 10:26)
...mention to KEEP confidence, despite adversity.
(Heb 13:3)
...mention of some who have lost their faith in their historical knowledge of God.
(Heb 10: 27 +)
...mention of their IMMATURE knowledge concerning Christ Jesus.
(Heb 5:12)
...Warning of being enlightened to the Truth, then rejecting the Truth.
(Heb 6:4)

I am not going to do a verse by verse study FOR you.

The Fact IS:
* I am "NOT" a Hebrew, or Jew, living 2,000 years ago:
* I am "NOT" steeped with, Mosaic Law, having been "my" exclusive historical Religion.
* I am "NOT" living in "lands foreign" to "my" Religious forefathers...
* I am "NOT' living in Roman Times, under Roman Laws, Roman Governorship, who persecuted, exiled, oppressed, inprisoned, Jews FOR their Godly beliefs.
* I am "NOT" a Jew being "REMINDED" of "my" Hebrew History, and Historical Enlightenment of Hebrew Teaching ABOUT God, and ABOUT His Prophetic Word to send His Messiah TO the JEWS.
* I am "NOT" a Jew Being "REMINDED" of Gods blessing UPON the JEWS, "WHO", despite persecutions, were to KEEP their "remembrance" "OF" Gods Blessings UPON Jews, who REMAINED faithful "TO GOD".
* I am "NOT" a Jew...Recently HEARING and LEARNING about the Arrivial and Teaching of Christ Jesus, the long awaited JEWISH Messiah.
* I am "NOT" a Jew...Being Reminded... Persecution "BY MEN", WILL CONTINUE until the DAY, God ENDS the persecution, AND Avenges the "man", Who continues IN Faith IN God..........AND BTW.....the NEWS, learning, acceptance......of the ONE...
(Christ Messiah, God SENT to Secure their Salvation...BY Gods POWER IN

*** Not sure, WHY you think a person, "specifically" a Born Again Gentile person, Having "Accepted" the Jewish Christ Messiah's "Offering" OF SALVATION....expressly ...
BY the THROUGH..."THE POWER OF GOD IN THEM"... "IS" comparable to:

*Hebrews, Jews, religious history being Mosaic Law,
* some Jews still obeying their religious Mosaic Law and suffering under persecution of Romans FOR their beliefs,
* some Jews giving up obedience to their religious Mosaic Law to AVOID persecution of Romans FOR their beliefs,
* some Hearing of their Christ Messiah having arrived, and Learning ABOUT Him,
* and the Jews, BEING Encouraged to TRUST and BELIEVE in "THIS" Christ Messiah JESUS, despite persecution.

Perhaps you could EXPLAIN, WHY and HOW a message TO Jews, immature in the Knowledge of Jesus being their Christ Messiah....
Has WHAT to do with a Gentile WHOSE beliefs are steeped IN trust and belief, JESUS IS THE promised Christ Messiah,
DID arrive, DID Offer, AND who "HAS" Accepted His OFFERING "OF CONVERSION" ?

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[OzSpen]

OSAS.

OSAS, simple means....."once you are born again, you are always born again".
OSAS, simple means....."once you are born again, you are always born again".
OSAS, simple means....."once you are born again, you are always born again".
OSAS, simple means....."once you are born again, you are always born again".

The devil disputes this, and his deceived dispute this.... because he bases his deceived idea of salvation on you trying to keep your salvation, or you trying to earn it. And that is what the devil's deceived teach.

Behold,

The Bible also disputes this:

4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age 6 and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace (Heb 6:4-6 NIV).​

You can't "be brought back to repentance" if you haven't already repented.

Oz

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