I've been asking some simple questions here, about some Scriptures, I'll give some time for you to answer those . . .
Much love!
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Much love!
Romans 8:5-9 LITV
5) For the ones that are according to flesh mind the things of the flesh. And the ones according to Spirit mind the things of the Spirit.
6) For the mind of the flesh is death, but the mind of the Spirit is life and peace;
7) because the mind of the flesh is enmity towards God; for it is not being subjected to the Law of God, for neither can it be.
8) And those being in the flesh are not able to please God.
9) But you are not in flesh, but in Spirit, since the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone has not the Spirit of Christ, this one is not His.
Isn't the teaching here that we are not in flesh, and are in spirit, because the Spirit of God dwells in us, and not for some other reason?
How would you answer this question on a yes or no basis? I'm just checking to see if we read things the same way.
Much love!
5) For the ones that are according to flesh mind the things of the flesh. And the ones according to Spirit mind the things of the Spirit.
6) For the mind of the flesh is death, but the mind of the Spirit is life and peace;
7) because the mind of the flesh is enmity towards God; for it is not being subjected to the Law of God, for neither can it be.
8) And those being in the flesh are not able to please God.
9) But you are not in flesh, but in Spirit, since the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone has not the Spirit of Christ, this one is not His.
Isn't the teaching here that we are not in flesh, and are in spirit, because the Spirit of God dwells in us, and not for some other reason?
How would you answer this question on a yes or no basis? I'm just checking to see if we read things the same way.
Much love!
Is there anyone who is able to undo God's seal? If the answer is no, your question is moot. If the Spirit is resisted His work in us is slowed, Insulted, that is what unbelievers do. Grieved, I think there are more than one way to make the Holy Spirit sad.
Ephesians 4:29-31 KJV
29) Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.
30) And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
31) Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice:
The context here seems to be concerning how we speak to each other.
This says the indwelling Holy Spirit is our seal unto the day of redemption. God declares us owned by Him until the day He comes to collect His possession. Is there anyone who is able to undo His ownership of us?
Much love!
OK, just to check my understanding, these passages speak of the very same thing as in Romans?
Colossians 3:5-13 KJV
5) Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:
6) For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:
7) In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them.
8) But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth.
9) Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;
10) And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:
11) Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.
12) Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;
13) Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye.
Ephesians 4:21-25 KJV
21) If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:
22) That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
23) And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
24) And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
25) Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another.
Romans 6:4-12 KJV
4) Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5) For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6) Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7) For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8) Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
9) Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
10) For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
11) Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
12) Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
These are all the same? That putting off the old man and putting on the new man, as described in Colossians and Ephesians, these are the same thing as being crucified with Christ, and that this death "justifies us away from sin", or, as in the King James, he that is dead is freed from sin.
Much love!
Unto is intent, in this case, God's intent. That's why I ask if someone can undo what God wills. That He puts His seal on, unto the day of redemption, that is, God expresses His ownership, and that expression of ownership carries through to that day He collects that thing He owns.
And this isn't an "earnest", a down payment or pledge, here in Ephesians, it's a "stamp" for ownship or security. A wax seal on a letter (security). A brand on a cow (ownership). Or in this instance, the Holy Spirit in a person, unto the day of redemption, we can see the intent both ownership and security. You might break a wax seal, but will you break the Holy Spirit?
Much love!
These are explained in their contexts, and looking at parallel passages. Fallen from grace is coming to rely on what you do instead of what Christ did when He died. As Romans 5 says, the same faith that saves us allows us access into the grace in which we stand. Are you standing in faith in Christ's death? Or have you fallen from grace, now trusting in yourself, no longer standing, allowing the attacks to your faith the armor would prevent?
We can go through each on of these together if you like. I prefer to take things one at a time, so I may break a longer post into several shorter (or longer, let's face facts!) replies.
Much love!
We can turn back to the flesh at any time; that has to be true, or we would be sinless. You are not sinless, neither am I. But we-Christians, SIN LESS.
When we sin what differs between us and the unsaved, is that sin grieves us; it drives us to our knees in sorrow, "sorrow sufficient for repentance". So we strive by His power not to sin again, but to repent.
There are so many "deceiver" verses -- 1Jn2:26-28, 2Jn1:7-9 (which is the answer to 1Jn2:19 "they went out from us to show they were not of us" --- does not say they were NEVER of us, they could have been saved yesterday! They were not of us WHEN they went out; 2Jn says for us to guard ourselves, (because) anyone who goes too far (goes out from us!) has not God!
1Tim4:1 is a "deceiver" verse.
2Cor11:3 says we are at the same risk of deception away from Jesus, as Eve experienced in the Garden.
And there are more. What are we supposed to do with deceiver verses? Mark them out? Or say, "Oh they're not deceiving us away from ETERNITY, they just want to steal a few of our SHINY CROWNS!" Really? Deceivers only want to diminish our rewards, they spend all their time doing that?
(And the question remains, what sins would we have to do to lose some of our rewards/crowns, but not eternity itself? What sins are okay with God?)
I don't mind responding to you, but you seem to be allergic to my questions for you.We can turn back to the flesh at any time; that has to be true, or we would be sinless. You are not sinless, neither am I. But we-Christians, SIN LESS.
When we sin what differs between us and the unsaved, is that sin grieves us; it drives us to our knees in sorrow, "sorrow sufficient for repentance". So we strive by His power not to sin again, but to repent.
There are so many "deceiver" verses -- 1Jn2:26-28, 2Jn1:7-9 (which is the answer to 1Jn2:19 "they went out from us to show they were not of us" --- does not say they were NEVER of us, they could have been saved yesterday! They were not of us WHEN they went out; 2Jn says for us to guard ourselves, (because) anyone who goes too far (goes out from us!) has not God!
1Tim4:1 is a "deceiver" verse.
2Cor11:3 says we are at the same risk of deception away from Jesus, as Eve experienced in the Garden.
And there are more. What are we supposed to do with deceiver verses? Mark them out? Or say, "Oh they're not deceiving us away from ETERNITY, they just want to steal a few of our SHINY CROWNS!" Really? Deceivers only want to diminish our rewards, they spend all their time doing that?
(And the question remains, what sins would we have to do to lose some of our rewards/crowns, but not eternity itself? What sins are okay with God?)
Much love!
No, time constraints. I'm care-taking -- which involves cooking, cleaning, pet care (three dogs a cat and a bird, one dog is 18 and requires dialysis and forced feeding [she's very alert and oriented otherwise]), etcetera. And I see by the "alerts" I have 11 replies for you, backed up. I'll try to reply in a bit...
Regarding 2 Peter chapter 2: 20-22 I see you have presumed that epignosis means being already saved with the possession of the new spirit of Christ of truth within. Full and intimate knowledge is just that, knowledge, no matter at what depth or breadth. The key question is what someone does with this level of knowledge of knowing the Lord and Savior. Do they keep it in their head or apply it with their heart to salvation? Or do they just sit on it and get enticed and become entangled in the darkness again, and even by false teachings? Do they return to wallow in their own vomit once again, and are now worse than an unbeliever. in holy judgement.Hi, Marks. Did you read what I quoted from 1Peter? The INHERITANCE is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, but it is reserved in Heaven -- and our possession OF it is our constant choice.
BTW, Peter's second letter is one of the "entire letters that ruin OSAS" --- ch1 those who have "receive a faith the same as ours", they have "escaped corruption through the epignosis-true-knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus"; exact same words as in 2Pet2:20-22, "if after having epignosis-escaped defilements through the epignosis-true-knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus" (exact same words as ch1!), "if they are again entangled and overcome (verse 18 the "truly escaped" are enticed back into defilements by the never-escaped-false-teachers-and-prophets), they are worse than BEFORE they WERE SAVED. Better to have never KNOWN (epiginosko, they really knew it!) the way of righteousness, than after HAVING KNOWN it, to have turned away from (epistrepho a real spiritual turning!) it!
And 3:17 don't be carried away by deceivers to fall from our own steadfastness -- pure "OSNAS"...
God is faithful to our receiving His grace; but that doesn't happen just one time, it's daily.
"Do not walk as the Gentiles do, darkened in their understanding, excluded from the life of God. LAY ASIDE the old man which is being corrupted in the lusts of deceit; be renewed in the spirit of your mind, PUT ON the new man which in the likeness of God is created in righteousness and holiness of the truth!" (Eph4;15-17, repeated in Col3).
See again Col2:6-8, walk in Him and guard against those trying to deceive us way from Jesus!
And to you, brother; you are my "treasure I can take with me".
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I would say you have it backwards; the Spirit indwells us first by invitation -- that's why it says we receive the Spirit. Balance this passage with Col3 -- "SET YOUR MINDS on things above, not earthly things".
What OSAS people have not considered is the principle advanced in verses like 2Jn1:7-9. Some propose a "subject change", "Watch yourselves (against deceivers) that you not lose what was wrought (only heavenly crowns, we cannot be deceived away from Jesus!); anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teaching of Christ (no, he was ALWAYS too far and never abided in the first place -- subject change); he who abides (subject change again, we're back to those who have wrought salvation and cannot be deceived away) has the Father and the Son."
There is no subject change; the word "because", is implied.
"Watch yourselves (against deceivers) that you not lose (the salvation you) wrought; (because) anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, has not God; he who abides has the Father and the Son."
1Jn1:11-13 "he who has the Son has life" -- Greek is "echo, grasp/possess". No-subject-change fits perfectly verses like 1Tim4:16 -- "Take care about yourself and your teaching; PERSEVERE in these things; as you do you will save yourselves..."
Can't be answered "yes" or "no"; it must be demonstrated that we set our OWN minds on either the flesh, or the Spirit. And Rom8:4-5 affirms this; those who are according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit.
Make sense?
The Spirit indwells us first by invitation; and He dwells each day by invitation also.
The answer is "yes". Seals are made to be broken. In the world of Calvinism Eph1:11 is one of the four "Primaries" (foundation passages); but verse 13 says we were sealed after believing. If that seal is affixed to our faith, then if we break our faith that breaks the seal.
Yes. You and I just read Heb12:7-8 --- God treats us AS sons IF we submit to His discipline; if we refuse it and turn away from Him (12:25), then we are no longer sons but (have become) illegitimate.
The teaching is summed up in verse 9 -- "SHALL we not much rather continue in submission to the Father of spirits, and live?"
Make a choice. Continually...
I was meditating on this thread earlier and in my humble opinion the main focus of salvation should be on Jesus as He is the one who lays/laid the foundation and is the Chief Cornerstone....
1 Corinthians 3 (KJV)
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⁸ Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.
⁹ For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.
¹⁰ According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
¹¹ For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
¹² Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
¹³ Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
¹⁴ If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
¹⁵ If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
(Verse 15 gives hope even for the person whose house didn't stand)
Ephesians 2 (KJV)
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¹⁸ For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
¹⁹ Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
²⁰ And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
²¹ In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
²² In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.
The foundation of salvation is Grace through Jesus Christ....
Without this foundation no material built will stand against calamity.
So having laid the foundation of Salvation we are to begin building on it....we use the proper tools and materials to build with...the tools are faith and His Word....the materials are wisdom, knowledge and understanding....
Look at how God built all of creation...
Proverbs 3 (KJV)
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¹⁹ The LORD by wisdom hath founded the earth; by understanding hath he established the heavens.
²⁰ By his knowledge the depths are broken up, and the clouds drop down the dew.
So here is what happens after one gets saved and has laid the foundation of Salvation by Jesus Christ...
1. Some begin to build on it
2. Some do nothing and just sits on it
3. Some use the wrong tools (doctrines of men)
4. Some use the wrong material (carnal mind)
5. Others use the right tools and materials and have built a house that can stand against any storm (temptations)
That is what came from my meditation...
We're reading verses together about "turning away from God". You and I read Heb3:12-14 --- can we be "deceived by sin to a hard disbelieving heart that falls away from God"? That is exactly what it says. So to continue in a OSAS doctrine, how many verses would we be willing to read, and then stamp "NOT REALLY" (they do not really mean what they say)?
"Do not harden your hearts. Take care, BRETHREN, lest there be in any of you an evil unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God. But encourage one another while it is still called today, lest you be hardened by deceitful sin. For we are partners (metochos!) in Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end."
What part of that is ambiguous or negotiable? What part fits "the-seal-cannot-be-broken"?
The point is, we have to "put on the new man" --- daily. Please consider 1Jn3:6, 9:
"No one who abides in Him sins. ...no one who is born of God sins, because His seed abides in him, and he cannot sin because he is born of God."
And yet, we-the-saved, do sin. "If we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us". 1Jn1:8
What's the answer? There is only one answer --- being "born-of-God", is forfeitable; we can turn to sin, which is turning away from God. It's nothing else.
Go back to 2Tim2:11-13; if we have died (and endure) we will live and reign with Him; if we deny Him He will deny us, if we are faithless He remains faithful. Is there any way to deny this plainly states we CAN deny Him and be faithless and perish, that it's the opposite of "died-and-endure"?
And that is something we have to do continually. Please see verses like Jn3:16 -- why to you suppose the verb is present active participle? He who IS BELIEVING. Not he who believes once and then goes his merry sinful way!
The Holy Spirit dwells by invitation. Now -- the essence of salvation is that we enter into an indwelt fellowship, being indwelt by Jesus and the Spirit; and we commune with the Father. Previous post we recognized that saved people are imperfect, and do occasionally sin.
Does the indwelling presence of God participate in our sins? Emphatically no! Every sin is a turning-away-from-God, the most frightening aspect of sin is that it breaks that indwelling fellowship He gives by grace. While salvation is not "lack-of-sins" (neither is condemnation by sins), every sin is a venture into unbelief and away from God. What we do AFTER we sin is critical -- do we repent and rush back into His arms sorrowful that we have hurt Him? Or do we sin again?
One choice is "continuing in salvation", the other is not...
No, "fallen-from-grace", is "severed-from-Christ", no way that is "still saved". Who can argue that?
Besides, the context clearly presents two positions:
1. Begun in the Spirit, running well, obeying the truth, KNOWN by God.
2. Ending in the flesh (not in the Spirit), no longer running well, hindered from obeying the truth, becoming enslaved all over again to weak worthless things.
Can anyone deny that #2 (which is also "fallen-from-grace" and "severed/separated/from-Christ"), is unsaved?
Would both positions still be "saved"?
I think you are beginning to see the direction of Scripture; maybe things you have not considered before.
No, I presume that the exact same Greek words mean exactly the same thing in both chapters 1 ("escaped corruptions by the true-saved-knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus"), and chapter 2 ("escaped defilements by the true-saved-knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus").
Chapter 1 also says "the same faith as us"; undeniably saved. If someone contends that those in ch2 were NOT saved, then what use is Jesus if someone can escape sinfulness without needing the Savior?
Jesus said, "Apart from Me you can do nothing"; and that nothing means they cannot escape defilements. Besides, if they were "never truly saved", why is the LAST (unsaved) state worse than the FIRST (unsaved) state? Or the MIDDLE (unsaved) state? No, better to have never KNOWN the way of righteousness (saved!), than HAVING KNOWN IT (saved!) to have turned away from the holy commandment (turned away from Jesus and salvation!).
Fallen-from-salvation is the only thing that is worse than having never been saved! Do you disagree?
You just specified the depth -- "intimate".
Huh? There was a time when they were unentgangled (and without Jesus, they OVERCAME their sin/defilements/entanglement)?
Do you really believe that?
Why would they be "worse-than-an-unbeliever", if they were never TRULY anything BUT an unbeliever?
APAK, all views of OSAS embody the "Catch-22" -- "If one is not saved NOW, then he was never TRULY saved in the FIRST place!" And that's not what Scripture says.
"Brethren, if any among you wanders away from the faith, and (if) another leads him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way has saved a soul from death and covered many sins." James5:19-20.
Can one "wander away from faith he's never had", or be "led back to where he never was"? No. James uses "thanatos death-with-implication-of-eternity-in-Hell", and he is very clear. Please see James' warning in ch1 about sin bringing death, do not be deceived beloved brethren. Is that a warning to the SAVED "beloved-brethren" or the unsaved? Is he talking about something other than "spiritual death"?
What do you think James meant?
You are right. However, the issue is our relationship to Jesus. How does it begin? His choice, or ours?
...and how does it continue? His choice, or ours?
Salvation is not grace through Jesus; grace is the provision, faith is our receiving of His gracious gift. 1Pet1:9, "receive as the OUTCOME OF YOUR FAITH salvation."
Noted Greek scholar and commentator A.T.Robertson said about Eph2:8 ("For by grace through faith have you been saved") --- "grace is God's part, faith is ours."
Here we have some problems. Some build on the foundation of Jesus ("no other foundation can be laid"). That's fine.
Your #2 opposes what Jesus taught in Matt25:24-26 --- the one who sat on what the Master had given him, was condemned; the Master took away even what had been given, and called him a "wicked slothful servant".
Your #3 opposes many verses; like Col2:6-8, and 2Pet3:17. What do "doctrines-of-men" get us before Jesus? Nothing good...
Your #4 proposes that one can be "carnal Christian". The American Council of Catholic Bishops takes Hebrews 5:11-14 as "carnal-but-saved", in spite of verses like Jesus' words in Matt7:16-18 ("no good tree produces bad fruit, no bad tree produces good; you will KNOW them by their fruit.") And 1Jn3 says "Jesus appeared to take away sins; no one who sins knows Him or has seen Him. He who practices sin is of the devil..."
What is "carnal"? It is nothing other than "still-walking-in-sin". So the Bishops are wrong; there is no subject change between Heb5:14, and 6:1. We are to (therefore!) stop trying to preach repentance to those who are carnal and do not want to repent; for in the case of those who WERE SAVED (they have been photizo-enlightened, have geuomai-tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come exactly as Jesus geuomai-tasted-death in Heb2:9, they were METOCHOS-PARTNERS of the Holy Spirit!) --- but now they are falling away (aorist-active-participle, possibly "having-fallen"), it is impossible (adunatos-unable/powerless) to restore them to repentance because of their willful sinfulness. One field is tilled expecting good grain; if it does it is blessed, but if it produces thorns and thistles it is cursed and burned.
"Carnal-Christian", is Antinomianism; opposed to 1Cor6:9-11, Eph5:5-6, Gal5:19-21, and others.
#5 -- well, actually, it's not the HOUSE THEY CONSTRUCTED that makes it stand, it's the foundation. The house-on-sand fell, the house-on-rock stood. The "Rock", is Jesus. Matt7:24-27.
What do you think, H2S?
You misunderstood number 2, 3, and 4 as I was presenting it.
I will get around to explaining tomorrow ..have a blessed night.
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