Greetings Trevor,Greetings again Pavel Mosko,
As well as his unusual explanation of Psalm 110, especially Psalm 110:5 in those years he also participated in a debate, but did not allow a discussion on the gradual development of the Trinity despite the fact that the person who debated him DB invited him to discuss this.
I have listened to a lecture given by DB on this subject about the same time and the following is taken from one of his slides.
Justin Martyr (2nd Century)
The Father alone is ‘true God’; Jesus is a pre-existent divine being created by God; the Holy Spirit is a type of angel
Irenaeus of Lyons (2nd Century)
The Father alone is ‘true God’; the Son and Holy Spirit are the divine ‘hands of God’, but not fully God in their own right
Tertullian (2nd-3rd Centuries)
Father, Son and Holy Spirit all share the same essence and co-exist equally as God, yet the Son was somehow ‘begotten’ by the Father and there was a time when he did not exist
Origen (2nd-3rd Centuries)
The Father alone is ‘very God’; the Son has always existed, being eternally ‘generated’ by Him; the Holy Spirit’s divinity is derived from the Son
Clement of Alexandria (2nd-3rd Centuries)
The Father alone is God; Jesus and the Holy Spirit are pre-existent divine beings created by Him
Arius (3rd-4th Centuries)
Jesus is the first of God’s creation; a pre-existent divine being
Athanasius (3rd-4th Centuries)
Father, Son and Holy Spirit are equally God; Jesus was and still is, fully God and fully man
Council of Nicaea (AD 325)
Officially declares Jesus is fully God, equal to the Father
Council of Constantinople (AD 381)
Officially declares Father, Son and Holy Spirit are all equally God
Kind regards
Trevor
Right now I’ve got family activities going on — we’re giving my dad an early 90th birthday party — so I’ll keep this focused on one key point for now and circle back to others later.
You mentioned Justin Martyr describing the Holy Spirit or Jesus in angelic terms. That’s a fair observation from the slide, but the Angel of the Lord in Scripture (and how Justin read Him) is very different from a regular created angel. This ties directly into the Two Powers in Heaven concept from Second Temple Judaism that I referenced earlier.
Quick summary of Two Powers in Heaven (per Michael Heiser and the biblical data):
In the Hebrew Bible, Yahweh is portrayed as both invisible/transcendent (the sovereign in heaven) and visible/immanent (appearing on earth in human form to interact with people). This isn’t ditheism or two gods — it’s one God in two related “presences” or powers.- Key texts: The Angel of the Lord (Exodus 3 — burning bush: “The Angel of the Lord appeared... and God called to him from the bush”; Judges 13; Genesis 16, 18, etc.) speaks and acts as Yahweh Himself (accepts worship, forgives sin, bears the divine Name, etc.), yet is sent by Yahweh. He’s not a created messenger like Gabriel or Michael.
- Other “weird observations”: The Name-Bearer (Exodus 23:20-21 — “My Name is in him”), the visible Yahweh who eats with Abraham (Genesis 18), the Cloud Rider (Daniel 7’s Son of Man), and Memra/Word traditions in the Targums.
- Ancient Jews (pre-rabbinic) had room for this “second Yahweh” figure as a divine vice-regent or visible embodiment of the invisible God — rooted in the divine council worldview. Later rabbis labeled it heretical (around the 2nd century CE) partly in reaction to Christians identifying this second Power with Jesus.
This Jewish background makes the high Christology in the Apostolic Fathers (Ignatius calling Jesus “our God,” triadic worship formulas, etc.) feel continuous rather than a sudden Hellenistic import.
I’ll try to address more of the slide points after the family stuff settles. In the meantime, curious what you make of the Angel of the Lord passages where He is treated as Yahweh Himself?
Kind regards, Pavel
