OT Grammarian proof of Trinity

[Pavel Mosko]

Greetings again Pavel Mosko,

As well as his unusual explanation of Psalm 110, especially Psalm 110:5 in those years he also participated in a debate, but did not allow a discussion on the gradual development of the Trinity despite the fact that the person who debated him DB invited him to discuss this.

I have listened to a lecture given by DB on this subject about the same time and the following is taken from one of his slides.

Justin Martyr (2nd Century)
The Father alone is ‘true God’; Jesus is a pre-existent divine being created by God; the Holy Spirit is a type of angel

Irenaeus of Lyons (2nd Century)
The Father alone is ‘true God’; the Son and Holy Spirit are the divine ‘hands of God’, but not fully God in their own right

Tertullian (2nd-3rd Centuries)
Father, Son and Holy Spirit all share the same essence and co-exist equally as God, yet the Son was somehow ‘begotten’ by the Father and there was a time when he did not exist

Origen (2nd-3rd Centuries)
The Father alone is ‘very God’; the Son has always existed, being eternally ‘generated’ by Him; the Holy Spirit’s divinity is derived from the Son

Clement of Alexandria (2nd-3rd Centuries)
The Father alone is God; Jesus and the Holy Spirit are pre-existent divine beings created by Him

Arius (3rd-4th Centuries)
Jesus is the first of God’s creation; a pre-existent divine being

Athanasius (3rd-4th Centuries)
Father, Son and Holy Spirit are equally God; Jesus was and still is, fully God and fully man

Council of Nicaea (AD 325)
Officially declares Jesus is fully God, equal to the Father

Council of Constantinople (AD 381)
Officially declares Father, Son and Holy Spirit are all equally God

Kind regards
Trevor

Greetings Trevor,
Right now I’ve got family activities going on — we’re giving my dad an early 90th birthday party — so I’ll keep this focused on one key point for now and circle back to others later.
You mentioned Justin Martyr describing the Holy Spirit or Jesus in angelic terms. That’s a fair observation from the slide, but the Angel of the Lord in Scripture (and how Justin read Him) is very different from a regular created angel. This ties directly into the Two Powers in Heaven concept from Second Temple Judaism that I referenced earlier.

Quick summary of Two Powers in Heaven (per Michael Heiser and the biblical data):​

In the Hebrew Bible, Yahweh is portrayed as both invisible/transcendent (the sovereign in heaven) and visible/immanent (appearing on earth in human form to interact with people). This isn’t ditheism or two gods — it’s one God in two related “presences” or powers.

• Key texts: The Angel of the Lord (Exodus 3 — burning bush: “The Angel of the Lord appeared... and God called to him from the bush”; Judges 13; Genesis 16, 18, etc.) speaks and acts as Yahweh Himself (accepts worship, forgives sin, bears the divine Name, etc.), yet is sent by Yahweh. He’s not a created messenger like Gabriel or Michael.
• Other “weird observations”: The Name-Bearer (Exodus 23:20-21 — “My Name is in him”), the visible Yahweh who eats with Abraham (Genesis 18), the Cloud Rider (Daniel 7’s Son of Man), and Memra/Word traditions in the Targums.
• Ancient Jews (pre-rabbinic) had room for this “second Yahweh” figure as a divine vice-regent or visible embodiment of the invisible God — rooted in the divine council worldview. Later rabbis labeled it heretical (around the 2nd century CE) partly in reaction to Christians identifying this second Power with Jesus.

Justin Martyr (in Dialogue with Trypho 56–62) explicitly uses these passages to show the pre-existent Son/Logos as the visible Yahweh who appeared to the patriarchs — the one who is both “God and Lord” and sent by the Father. He’s not demoting Jesus to a regular angel; he’s identifying Him with this ancient Jewish “second Power” who shares the divine identity while remaining distinct. That fits the progressive revelation you raised: the OT gives the raw “weird” data, the apostles and earliest fathers connect the dots after the incarnation and resurrection.
This Jewish background makes the high Christology in the Apostolic Fathers (Ignatius calling Jesus “our God,” triadic worship formulas, etc.) feel continuous rather than a sudden Hellenistic import.
I’ll try to address more of the slide points after the family stuff settles. In the meantime, curious what you make of the Angel of the Lord passages where He is treated as Yahweh Himself?
Kind regards, Pavel

 

[TrevorHL]

Greetings again Pavel Mosko,

curious what you make of the Angel of the Lord passages where He is treated as Yahweh Himself?

The Angel of Yahweh is an Angel of Yahweh, a messenger of Yahweh, who represents Yahweh and acts on his behalf. There are a number of these and two examples would be Michael and Gabriel.

Jude identifies the particular Angel of Yahweh in Zechariah 3 as Michael.

Zechariah 3:1–2 (AV): 1 And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him. 2 And the LORD said unto Satan, The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan; even the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?

Jude 8–9 (AV): 8 Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities. 9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Episkopos]

What is not being understood in this study is that when the Hebrew is plural, without specifying the number being discussed, the number is always 2 (not 3 or any other number). The Godhead is Father and Son united in One Spirit. Jesus said "I and My Father are One" One what? One God, One Spirit.

 

[TrevorHL]

Greetings Episkopos,

What is not being understood in this study is that when the Hebrew is plural, without specifying the number being discussed, the number is always 2 (not 3 or any other number).

Elohim is applied to the Angels and Judges and in these instances can represent many more than 2 or 3. Please check your Hebrew.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Grailhunter]

• Deuteronomy 6:4 – “Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one.
• Deuteronomy 32:39 See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god beside me; I kill and I make alive; I wound and I heal; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand.
• Isaiah 44:6 Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts: “I am the first and I am the last; besides me there is no god.
• Isaiah 45:5 – “I am the LORD, and there is no other; there is no God but Me”
• Isaiah 46:9 Remember the former things of old; for I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me,
• Psalm 86:10 – “For you are great and do marvelous deeds; you alone are God”

And Yeshua explained the oneness concept. But few pay attention to that.
The New Testament Yeshua gives us a clearer explanation of the oneness concept. Speaking to God the Father (He was not talking to Himself) Yeshua says this about the concept of one...John 17:22 “And the glory which to them; that they may be one just as We are one.” Because Yeshua says “just as” this is an exactness, a duplication of a condition that we can achieve, and He states that this condition of “oneness” can apply to us, but it has nothing to do with absorption or singularity, but rather a condition of spiritual union and solidarity between God and us. The next verse further defines this by describing a unity with Christ that would cause the same condition with us as it did with them, a condition of perfection. Again, not talking to Himself, in John 17:23 “I in them, and You in Me, that they may be perfected in unity, that the world may know that You did send Me, and do love them, even as you do love Me.” In this context millions of people could be made one...one being a abstract concept of one, but a more literal meaning of unity, solidarity, and perfection and even a “body” that is considered one....the body of Christ or the body of the Church. And then, the next verse is probably one of the best verses to put this oneness concept into perspective. The leading verses are speaking of the works of the Holy Spirit and then ends with this explanation. 1st Corinthians 12:11-13 “But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills. For even as the body is one and yet has many members, and all the members of the body, though they are many, are one body, so also is Christ. For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and were all made to drink of one Spirit. For the body is not one member, but many.”.....So the "Oneness" is something that applies or will apply to all of us and we are not gods nor will we ever be gods.

But still the number thing can be misleading, in relation to Yahweh....God supreme, God Almighty. His being, maybe vast.....Every atom in the universe may have part of Him in it.
And whether or not if you believe in the 3 in 1 formula for the Trinity or that the Trinity is made up of a Godhead of 3 Gods, that is not to say they do not have a divine connection. Yeshua said that Yahweh knew when the end of time was and He did not. So they have different minds and Yeshua sits on the right hand of Yahweh....But what would 3 perfect minds be like? 3 perfect minds would think exactly the same. Just like 3 exact computers would commutate exactly the same. And I am sure there is divine unity that we cannot comprehend. In fact that is what Trinity means....Tri-unity, not Tri-one. The one God of the Old Testament impregnated a woman and what she delivered was a God....the Savior of the world. The Son of God.

 

[TrevorHL]

Greetings Grailhunter,

what she delivered was a God....the Savior of the world. The Son of God.

Many words leading up to your final statement. What Mary delivered was a human, the Son of God.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Grailhunter]

Greetings Grailhunter,

Many words leading up to your final statement. What Mary delivered was a human, the Son of God.

Kind regards
Trevor

Actually what the physical / divine nature of what exactly Yeshua was when He walked on earth has been debated for centuries. His existence was so unique, I do not know if we have a word for it. Some say 100% human and 100% God. Some say His body was human and His spirit was divine. I call Him a God.