Outer Darkness

[Episkopos]

And...where would that be?

GOD IS!!

Very true. But His awareness and His presence are different things. God can do as He wishes. Nothing is impossible for Him. There is nowhere we can hide from the eyes of the Lord. But we can wander far from His presence.

 

[Truth]

And...where would that be?

GOD IS!!

Beat's the heck out of me!!! I know that God's Glory will be a great light, as to have no need for the sun. Our God and Our King will be all the light we will need! But, with God there might be a place, very dark?????
PS Hope you are feeling better!

 

[Jay Ross]

It seems to me that you have placed a great deal of upon yourself of what you think SHOULD have been revealed in Scripture.

If you elect to make Heb 1 say "ages", even in defiance of the very Web page you suggested to me , that is your prerogative and has zero effect upon what I Trust to Believe is Scripturally sound.



God Bless,
Taken

After some work of looking at all of the listed occurrences of the Greek word αἰῶνας and the context in which it is normally found in the New Testament, of "εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας" I would paraphrase these Greek words as "throughout the ages." As such in all of the 30 or so occurrence of this Greek word, it is best understood to have the English equivalent word of "ages." I still stand by what I first wrote above concerning the meaning of this word in Hebrews 1:2 that it has the meaning of ages in this verse as well. My caution about your previous post is still valid.

Shalom

 

[Taken]

No not really.

Not really? However Heb 1 says World, and you say, that is likely wrong, and then challenge me for trusting what Scripture says.
Further you give your own suggestion for me to consider a Greek translation, that also says World, but you doubt that translation is valid.

Very weird!

I however do take the time to carefully consider the Greek text which has been translated and how the respective Greek word has been translated in other passages. The fact that they translate it differently in each case should ring alarm bells for you to go about verifying the logic and rational of the translators, but you are welcome to believe what you like whether or not it is scripturally sound..

It is ofcourse your option to rely on a Greeks understanding or your own.

I'll stick with relying on, and Trusting Gods Understanding.

Sadly what you believe is scripturally sound may not be scriptural sound at all but would you know that or not.

Not necessary for you to project a feeling of sadness toward me. I am not the one challenging what Scripture says, and promoting Greek, while disagreeing with its translation.

If you choose to believe there are not created world(S), that is your Freewill to do so. It does not make you correct and others Wrong.

Heb 1:2
It was by Jesus the world(s) were made.

John 8:23
Jesus is from above. Jesus is not of this world.

God Bless,
Taken

 

[brakelite]

God creates...Vessels.
God Gives the Vessels Life...
And God Takes Away Life.

There are KINDS of created things which are Vessels called, Bodies of Flesh ie (man-KIND and Animal-KIND).

Their LIFE Is BLOOD, formed and made from Dust of their estate/habitat; i.e. earth.
Their LIFE Is Quickened, (ie brought into a Living state), via another Vessel that contains Life from God, called a soul (the vessel), Gods Life (His Breath), and IMPARTED into the Flesh Body, Via God blowing into the formed body's nostrils.

When God departs Life (blood) of the Vessel (called Flesh) the vessel dies, and returns to the earth. That body has thus fulfilled its sentence...
1) God requires the Life (blood) of Every flesh body.
2) Life (Blood)of the body that stops flowing, the body becomes dead, which IS a sentence that shall be accomplished by all of mankind and animalkind of created things.

When the vessel, (flesh) is dying, the vessel (soul) with Life (Gods Breath) departs out of the flesh body.

The remaining Living Soul with Gods Breath...goes to "another World" (a world other than this world).

The Living soul goes To:
Heaven, with God, from whence it came, or Hell, separated from God.
There in either place the living souls WAIT for their respective Judgement.

Living souls forever With God shall receive Rewards For their Works...and have some of their Works burned.
(Rewarded Works and burned Works are dependent upon IF the mans Works Glorified God or not).

Living souls in Heaven will forever retain (KEEP) Life from Gods Breath.

Living souls in hell shall have Gods Life (Breath) departed out of their souls.
Gods Life (Breath) shall return to God.
And the mans Body and soul destroyed.

God Bless,
Taken

What you are saying then is that a portion of us survives death. You are therefore agreeing with the serpent when he gave the very first sermon on the state of the dead... Ye shall not surely die.
And that same sermon has been repeated ad nauseum from almost every Christian pulpit since the establishment of the Roman apostasy and her acceptance of platonic philosophy into the Christian faith.
If Christians simply accepted the Bible truth that we die... Period... And then or hope is solely in the resurrection, we would have far less problems dealing with the superstitious and the occult. Remember Isaiah 8:20 and the context he spoke those words. Even more applicable today than then. Remember those words in context with what you wrote above. How much of what you have written is truly biblically sound?

 

[Taken]

What you are saying then is that a portion of us survives death.

If you are familiar with my posts, on more than one occasion I have said All will die.

Some will survive the Great Tribulation.
That is not surviving Death.
That is surviving the Great Tribulation.

Matt 24:21,22

You are therefore agreeing with the serpent

No. That is not true, nor what you for some reason think I said something I did not say.

How much of what you have written is truly biblically sound?

If you want to challenge me, do so with what I actually say.

God Bless,
Taken

 

[brakelite]

When the vessel, (flesh) is dying, the vessel (soul) with Life (Gods Breath) departs out of the flesh body.

The remaining Living Soul with Gods Breath...goes to "another World" (a world other than this world).

The Living soul goes To:
Heaven, with God, from whence it came, or Hell, separated from God.
There in either place the living souls WAIT for their respective Judgement.

here is where I differ. Genesis informs us that when into the body God breathes His spirit of life, the man thus formed, that is the combination of flesh and spirit, became a living soul. As all creatures of God are living souls. When the body dies, the spirit, or breath of God, returns to Him... Man therefore without that combination of spirit and flesh, ceases to be a living soul. What returns to God at death cannot be a living entity. Without the flesh, the spirit can have no sense of existence. Without the spirit or breath, the flesh is permanently dead; except that in due course there is the resurrection, when once again the spirit of God enters into the remains of the dead body and us raised incorruptible and immortal.

 

[Jay Ross]

Not really? However Heb 1 says World, and you say, that is likely wrong, and then challenge me for trusting what Scripture says.
Further you give your own suggestion for me to consider a Greek translation, that also says World, but you doubt that translation is valid.

Very weird!




It is ofcourse your option to rely on a Greeks understanding or your own.

I'll stick with relying on, and Trusting Gods Understanding.



Not necessary for you to project a feeling of sadness toward me. I am not the one challenging what Scripture says, and promoting Greek, while disagreeing with its translation.

If you choose to believe there are not created world(S), that is your Freewill to do so. It does not make you correct and others Wrong.

Heb 1:2
It was by Jesus the world(s) were made.

John 8:23
Jesus is from above. Jesus is not of this world.

God Bless,
Taken

Please allow the following link (Hebrews 1:2 Interlinear: in these last days did speak to us in a Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He did make the ages;) to the Interlinear for Hebrews 1:2 where you will see that G:0165 is translated as "ages." If you then click on the Strong Number G:165 it will go take you to the definition of the base Greek root word which is found embedded in 6 different Greek words around 125 times. If you click on the second variation of the Greek word in which G:165 is embedded in you will display the list of how this Greek word is translated around 32 times in the New Testament by the translators in various translations. This list of how the Greek word has been translated does not indicate that the translators have got it right at all. As I have posted in another thread, every translation of the source texts, either Hebrew or Greek, they are not infallible as you are suggesting. The translations are man's attempt to transfer a different language into the English language without modifying the contextual accuracy of the source text in either case. Unfortunately, the translators have forced different theological understandings into the translations that do not necessarily convey the original context and message that God had written by the "Prophets," etc.. The concept of making something that is time based is difficult to wrap one's laughing matter around, but that is exactly what Hebrews 1:2 is clearly stating in Hebrews 1:2, whereas in the John 8:23 verse, the word translated as world in this text is has the embedded Greek root, G:2889 within it and its strong meaning certainly points towards a translation of "world" whereas G:165 does not.

All I am encouraging you to do is to engage you brain before you engage you voice and convey something that is wrong.

I do not mind if you attempt to take the high road by claiming that you are taking the various English translations as being the infallible word of God, but all I can do is caution you. You do what you want, but your understanding of Heb-1:2 is not according to the source Greek texts that has been translated into the English versions.

Shalom

 

[Taken]

here is where I differ.

Yes, we differ.

[/QUOTE]Genesis informs us that when into the body God breathes His spirit of life, [/QUOTE]

Genesis informed me;
God FORMED a man from Dust.
1) Thus a human body is fully formed.
2) Then "something" entered the Formed man.
What entered the mans Form, WAS:
1) A soul
2) That soul WITH Life from God IN IT.
How God Imparted THAT LIFE IN the soul IN the fully Formed man. WAS
3) VIA God Blowing into the mans nostrils.

What resulted is:
A thing called MAN-"KIND", is a FORM/BODY.
A thing called MAN-"KIND", with a LIVING SOUL "IN" IT, is CALLED an ALIVE MAN.

A formed man WITHOUT a LIVING SOUL "in it", IS called a dead man/body, whose LIVING SOUL has "departed out of his dead body/form".

In short;
God forms body's, and called them a Man-KIND of thing.
God "makes" souls, "imparts" "HIS LIFE" into the souls, and "imparts" the Living soul INTO a man/BODY.

The BODY/ie FORM and the SOUL are two Different things, FROM two different "places";
Both called by the "identity /NAME" of ONE Man.

All BODY's are FORMED from DUST, BY God.
All SOULS are MADE BY God, and BELONG to God.
God IS LIFE and gives things/vessels LIFE, and TAKES LIFE out of vessels.

Sentence of Bodies and Souls (in Hell), IS;
Their Living soul SHALL be "again" (after Judgement) departed out of their BODY, the LIFE (Gods Breath), shall return to God, their BODY and SOUL destroyed, eternally separated from God.

And Scripture teaches a man SHOULD FEAR thee ONE (God) WHO can and WILL destroy bodies and souls that REJECT HIM.
Matt 10:28.

God forms bodies from the Dust of the Earth.
Gen 2:7

God gives that body, Life in a vessels He has made, (and that is HIS Vessel).
Gen 2:7
Isa 57:16

Mans BODY is a Vessel created from DUST.
Mans SOUL is a Vessel. Made by God and IMPARTED into the BODY.

All SOULS belong to God.
ezek 18:4

the man thus formed, that is the combination of flesh and spirit, became a living soul.

The man thus formed is a body.
The man formed, naturally born (ie something alive coming forth out of something alive), receives ITS OWN independent LIFE from God, via a SOUL, blown into his nostrils, that has LIFE from Gods BREATH...ie a Living SOUL.

A natural man HAS a "natural SPIRIT".
A natural mans "spirit" IS HIS NATURAL "TRUTH" (located) IN the thoughts of HIS HEART.
A TRUTH in ones HeArt, simply IS. Which is Different than what a mans MIND DOES, which is to gather INFORMATION, cipher, decide IF he believes it or NOT, and can at any time CHANGE what he believes is so.
Where as a TRUTH in ones Heart IS the mans "natural spirit".

God has a Spirit also. It is called Holy and True. Gods Holy TRUE SPIRIT does not require ciphering, logically weighing, guessing, etc. IT IS TRUTH, and one can CHOOSE to believe it OR NOT.

When a man eLeCtS to BECOME CONVERTED, a great part of the mans CONFESSION of BELIEF, is Solely a Confession of Belief from the mans "spirit" in his "heart". The mans "TRUTH" that he believes IN God and fully TRUST HIM, regardless if they COMPLETELY understand HIS WORD. (Ie Knowledge they have heard and received).

It is THEN the Lord God, GIVeS the man A NEW SPIRIT, BY/VIA, giving the man GODS OWN SEED, to REBIRTH the mans "natural spirit", INTO a NEW SPIRIT, with a NEW TRUTH, that IS Gods TRUTH.

The Spirit OF GOD, via HIS SEED, thereafter REMAINS IN AND WITH THAT MANS "new spirit"... and BTW, a "part" of the mans CONVERSION, is that the man ALSO receives a circumcised HEART (ie the place within a man WHERE his spirit IS).
This is NOT deals with the SOUL, (which receives LIFE from Gods BREATH), but rather is Dealing with a mans Natural Spirit, rebirthing it with Gods Seed, and "QUICKENING" (ie, bringing into a New Life), called a BORN AGAIN SPIRIT.

Spirits NEVER DIE.
Angels ARE SPIRITS. They may (and some will) become separated FROM GOD, but will not DIE.
Human KIND of things, WHOSE soul becomes SAVED, shall forever remain ALIVE with Gods BREATH .... AND .... shall receive a new heart, and new spirit from Gods Seed, that their Spirit shall NEVER be subject to DEATH.

Men WHOSE soul DOES NOT BECOME SAVED....NEVER receive a NEW heart or Gods SEED or a NEW born again Spirit.
Their natural body, and soul, VOID of Gods BREATH, SHALL be destroyed.

BODY (from the earth) is applicable to ALL of ManKIND.
SOUL, & LIFE in the soul (from God) is applicable to ALL of ManKIND who has becom Alive.
Natural spirit is applicable to ALL of manKIND.
A NEW heart and New Seed from God, and BORN AGAIN Spirit (that lives forever) IS ONLY APPLICABLE to mankind WHO believes AND Receives a NEW Heart and Gods SEED.

As all creatures of God are living souls. When the body dies, the spirit, or breath of God, returns to Him...

It will eventually. Currently, NO LIVING SOUL has had its LIFE (from God) departed OUT OF ITS SOUL. Only departures has been....the Living soul DEPARTED out of the BODY, and the body rots and returns to DUST.

Some Living souls, (departed out of their dead body's are with God, waiting for their glorified bodies, some are IN HELL, "waiting for Judgement Day".

Those with God ALSO have had their spirit BORN AGAIN....and yes when THEIR body dies, their Living spirit, goes to Gods Hand in Heaven, to WAIT for their glorified bodies to be raised UP to meet AND SEE their Lord God, AS HE IS.

Man therefore without that combination of spirit and flesh, ceases to be a living soul.

No. It does not matter IF a Body is in the grave rotting, that man HAS the same identity...His Name.
His soul has the same identity, IN or OUT of his body; IN Heaven, or IN Hell.
A man whose soul is saved....his New spirit has the same identity, as his body, as his living soul; In his body, OR out of his body and IN Gods hand IN Heaven.

What returns to God at death cannot be a living entity.

Of course it is! God is not a collector of DEAD things.

Without the flesh, the spirit can have no sense of existence.

Not true.
Bodies were NOT CREATED ALIVE.
Bodies are GIVEN LIFE via....God having created the body WITH BLOOD, Gods Breath IN A SOUL and imparted into the BODY, and for Some Gods SEED.

It is the BODY that requires ... Blood, and a living soul to BE alive. Living souls DO NOT Require a BODY to BE Living, "THEY" require Gods Breath.
And a born again "spirit" requires Gods SEED.
Once the "spirit" is born OF Gods SEED, it can not DIE.

Without the spirit or breath, the flesh is permanently dead;

.

Permanently dead? Not true. A body WHICH is DEAD...has Its soul Departed out of it.
However, God CAN, (as examples and teaching in Scripture has revealed)....God CAN "REIMPART" the living soul BACK INTO A BODY and the BODY resume Living.

except that in due course there is the resurrection,

Dead men CAN become alive again, after their Soul has departed. It is necessary SINCE, dead men WILL stand IN Judgement, and bow to the Lord, (in Hell), before their body and soul is destroyed.

when once again the spirit of God enters into the remains of the dead body and us raised incorruptible and immortal.

That is specific to ONLY saved souls and born again men.

Body, soul and spirit of man. Three different things, received unto a man at three different times, and changed (or not) VIA God at three different times.
1 Thes 5:23


God Bless,
Taken

 

[Taken]

Please allow the following link (Hebrews 1:2 Interlinear: in these last days did speak to us in a Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He did make the ages;) to the Interlinear for Hebrews 1:2 where you will see that G:0165 is translated as "ages." If you then click on the Strong Number G:165 it will go take you to the definition of the base Greek root word which is found embedded in 6 different Greek words around 125 times. If you click on the second variation of the Greek word in which G:165 is embedded in you will display the list of how this Greek word is translated around 32 times in the New Testament by the translators in various translations. This list of how the Greek word has been translated does not indicate that the translators have got it right at all. As I have posted in another thread, every translation of the source texts, either Hebrew or Greek, they are not infallible as you are suggesting. The translations are man's attempt to transfer a different language into the English language without modifying the contextual accuracy of the source text in either case. Unfortunately, the translators have forced different theological understandings into the translations that do not necessarily convey the original context and message that God had written by the "Prophets," etc.. The concept of making something that is time based is difficult to wrap one's laughing matter around, but that is exactly what Hebrews 1:2 is clearly stating in Hebrews 1:2, whereas in the John 8:23 verse, the word translated as world in this text is has the embedded Greek root, G:2889 within it and its strong meaning certainly points towards a translation of "world" whereas G:165 does not.

All I am encouraging you to do is to engage you brain before you engage you voice and convey something that is wrong.

I do not mind if you attempt to take the high road by claiming that you are taking the various English translations as being the infallible word of God, but all I can do is caution you. You do what you want, but your understanding of Heb-1:2 is not according to the source Greek texts that has been translated into the English versions.

Shalom

Look...quite simply thee Lord has created and made ALL things.

Angels, ManKIND, animalKIND, time, ages, Worlds, Heavens, Earth, Air, Sun, Moon, Stars, plants, herbs, souls, vessels, and on and on.

You want "time periods" to be "ages"....that's you.
You want "time periods / ages to be worlds"...
That's you.
I do not need to STUDY GREEK to know there ARE PLACES called WORLDS For Gods Creations to Call their "estate" and that their "estates" were designed to sustain their natural existance, AND He sustains a mans Eternal existance.......or NOT...Regardless of the AGE / Timeframe / era that any particular man has naturally existed.

If it is your desire to study Greek, Hebrew or any other language not native to yourself, that is your option.

The Lord never directed me to study other languages as a prerequisite to reading His Word, or Hearing His voice, or Understanding OF His Understanding of His Knowledge.

You want to rely on a Greeks "Understanding", okie dokie. My preference is to rely on Gods Understanding, which ONLY HE can give me.

As far as whether or not you agree with me...that is totally irrelevant.
I agree with the Lord God that the worlds were created and made BY HIM.
Gen 1:1
Heb 1:2

You want to lean your understanding and philosophies according to the Greeks; your option.

A warning to you:
Col 2:8
A directional to you:
Prov 3:5

God Bless,
Taken

 

[Jay Ross]

A warning to you:
Col 2:8
A directional to you:
Prov 3:5

Yes I do take both of those quotes very seriously, but it seems to me that you have not taken then seriously at all but have chosen to ignore them, otherwise you would understand that you are relying on the wisdom of men and are uses these scriptures in an attempt to take the moral high ground, even though you have no understanding of the fallibility of the translations that you rely on for your understanding.

God requires a higher standard of those who teach about the scriptures and anyone who assumes that mantle needs to be very careful about what they convey. What this interaction is about may seem trivial to many, but if you allow a trivial misconception to grow, it does displace the truth as the introduced lie grows into the understanding of the scriptures and the tradition of men. Our translations are full of holding to the tradition of men. If you want to hold to the tradition of men, then be my guest, ignore my wisdom, but do so at your own peril, just as I do so at my peril if I ignore the wisdom of God.

Shalom

 

[Taken]

Yes I do take both of those quotes very seriously,

While you advocate Greek.

but it seems to me that you have not taken then seriously at all but have chosen to ignore them,

That is your failure to Comprehend.
Speaking the Lords Knowledge, and giving my understanding according to God, and referencing Scripture IS NOT disagreeing with the Lord and IS NOT Ignoring Scripture!!
No matter HOW MANY TIMES you make such accusation!

otherwise you would understand that you are relying on the wisdom of men

What exactly do you think you are advocating?
Greek Language, of Greek Men....and somehow you think YOU advocating PARTICULAR men, makes you NOT Relying on the wisdom of MEN?

I am already well acquainted with wHere WISDOM comes from and HOW one obtains it. And it AIN'T by or through Greeks who highly prized PHILOSOPHY!!

and are uses these scriptures in an attempt to take the moral high ground,

What is your goal? To take the LOW moral ground?

If you have a problem with men relying on the Word of God and His understanding, and think because I do not agree with you and ATTEMPT to get in a SLAM toward me with your "moral high ground" comment, FYI, it is a fail....and totally uncalled for.

even though you have no understanding of the fallibility of the translations that you rely on for your understanding.

And exactly how would YOU KNOW How often I read and study and ask and have conversations with the Lord, and What we discuss, and What He teaches me?

God requires a higher standard of those who teach about the scriptures and anyone who assumes that mantle needs to be very careful about what they convey. What this interaction is about may seem trivial to many, but if you allow a trivial misconception to grow, it does displace the truth as the introduced lie grows into the understanding of the scriptures and the tradition of men. Our translations are full of holding to the tradition of men.

And?

If you want to hold to the tradition of men, then be my guest,

Look in the MIRROR, you are the one pushing the traditions and wisdom of GREEK MEN!!

Give your lecture to yourself.

ignore my wisdom,

Already done!

but do so at your own peril, just as I do so at my peril if I ignore the wisdom of God.

And? What? Did the Lord teach you to accuse others while you do what you accuse others of?


God Bless,
Taken

 

[Jay Ross]

While you advocate Greek.



That is your failure to Comprehend.
Speaking the Lords Knowledge, and giving my understanding according to God, and referencing Scripture IS NOT disagreeing with the Lord and IS NOT Ignoring Scripture!!
No matter HOW MANY TIMES you make such accusation!



What exactly do you think you are advocating?
Greek Language, of Greek Men....and somehow you think YOU advocating PARTICULAR men, makes you NOT Relying on the wisdom of MEN?

I am already well acquainted with wHere WISDOM comes from and HOW one obtains it. And it AIN'T by or through Greeks who highly prized PHILOSOPHY!!



What is your goal? To take the LOW moral ground?

If you have a problem with men relying on the Word of God and His understanding, and think because I do not agree with you and ATTEMPT to get in a SLAM toward me with your "moral high ground" comment, FYI, it is a fail....and totally uncalled for.



And exactly how would YOU KNOW How often I read and study and ask and have conversations with the Lord, and What we discuss, and What He teaches me?



And?



Look in the MIRROR, you are the one pushing the traditions and wisdom of GREEK MEN!!

Give your lecture to yourself.



Already done!



And? What? Did the Lord teach you to accuse others while you do what you accuse others of?


God Bless,
Taken

So be it, you have proved your point of ignorance.

 

[Taken]

So be it, you have proved your point of ignorance.

It seems you have also redefined ignorance as being in disagreement with you.

No problem for me. I am in agreement with the Lord.

God Bless,
Taken

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Outer darkness is an eternal destiny. It is for they who are rejected of God...yet are still saved.

Ephesians 4:8-10
[8] Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. [9] (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? [10] He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

1 Corinthians 15:28
[28] And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

How can this be when there is an outer darkness reserved??

 

[bbyrd009]

rejected of God...yet are still saved

 

[Helen]

Ephesians 4:8-10
[8] Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. [9] (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? [10] He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

1 Corinthians 15:28
[28] And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

How can this be when there is an outer darkness reserved??

I will still stand on the Love and Integrity of God's Nature and Character. His love had a Lamb slain before the beginning of the world. His Love has never stopped.

"He made darkness His secret place; His pavilion round about Him were dark waters and thick clouds of the skies." PS 18

PS 139:12
"Yea, the darkness hideth not from Thee, but the night shineth as the day; the darkness and the light are both alike to Thee."

 

[Helen]

rejected of God...yet are still saved

You know that that is where I myself stand...the loss of position and sonship = rejected. But as to the hell fire stuff = saved.

 

[Episkopos]

rejected of God...yet are still saved

....as by fire...

 

[Episkopos]

You know that that is where I myself stand...the loss of position and sonship = rejected. But as to the hell fire stuff = saved.

Amen. So we ought to fear and humble ourselves lest we also be cut off as the original branches. But not many will listen.

They who ignore history and doomed to make the same mistakes.