Paul and Faith Alone…

[skypair]

I was reading the intro to Galations in my Ryrie Bible the other day and in it he says, "Man is too weak to accomplish self-salvation of self-sanctifcation. … Paul's answer was to proclaim justification by faith plus nothing."

That is far from what he preached! In Acts 26:20 Paul says, "But I showed first to them of Damascus [and everywhere he preached]… that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet of repentance." In Acts 17:30 he was even more forceful. "And the times of this ignorance [of God] God winked at; but now has commanded all men every where to repent." Putting it into the correct order, Paul said in Acts 21:20, "Testifying to both the Jews and also to the Greeks, REPENTANCE toward God, and FAITH toward our Lord Jesus Christ."

So to put it very bluntly, if you have faith alone, your faith is in the gospel and in the Bible but not "toward Christ." And many folks do have faith in the gospel and in the Bible — that they are the true teachings .. the very breath .. of God. But they think that, b/c they have faith in the Bible and the gospel, they are "elect" or saved.

To which I would say, "O foolish Galations, who has bewitched you that you should not obey the truth…?" Well, I think we know now who, right?

skypair

 

[H. Richard]

Anyone that comes to Christ has to acknowledge that they are sinful, right???? Isn't that repentance?

 

[Miss Hepburn]

Anyone that comes to Christ has to acknowledge that they are sinful, right???? Isn't that repentance?

I thought repentance was sincerely in the heart being sorry for your wrong and saying/ believing
"I won't do that again."
Even, tho we may make another mistake...and the cycle of sincerity follows
a few more times, perhaps, till we get it.
Or maybe they are both, H.R., and even more that I don't know about!! Ha!
Being sorry, acknowledging the wrong seems plenty to me! Sure, feels right!
I talk to God all the time...He knows my shame and that I will pick myself up and not do that again!

 

[skypair]

Anyone that comes to Christ has to acknowledge that they are sinful, right???? Isn't that repentance?

Yes, but with Godly sorrow, 2Cor 7:10 .. with a contrite spirit, Psa 34:18. Job prayed, "I abhor myself and repent in dust and ashes." (Job 42:5-6) There has to be that heart-felt desire to be changed by God from what you are.

skypair

 

[skypair]

I talk to God all the time...He knows my shame and that I will pick myself up and not do that again!

There is a difference between confession and repentance. We confess all the time letting God know that we know we have sinned and asking for His help to correct the problem. We also are asking for His mercy on the earthly consequences of the sin until He gives us the strength to overcome the sin.

When we repent, we tell God that we are determined, at this time, to quit the sin. There's a whole list of steps in 2Cor 7:11 that will help us to quit that sin including being careful not to fall again .. clearing ourselves of the temptations that usually cause us to fall .. indignation with the sin that it held us for so long, etc.

The repentance that leads to salvation is the change of mind when we believe AND the change of heart that brings us to repentance from our own "thoughts and ways" and into obeying God.

skypair

 

[Richard_oti]

Anyone that comes to Christ has to acknowledge that they are sinful, right???? Isn't that repentance?

I can acknowledge that I am sinful 7 times 70, but it is meaningless unless I strive to overcome said sin and to turn away from it.

 

[ScottA]

Yes, but with Godly sorrow, 2Cor 7:10 .. with a contrite spirit, Psa 34:18. Job prayed, "I abhor myself and repent in dust and ashes." (Job 42:5-6) There has to be that heart-felt desire to be changed by God from what you are.

skypair

The gospel is Christ.

But we should take care not to mix or confuse what Christ did not Himself mix. He first came for the house of Israel, meaning that was one form of attaining salvation, which was through His blood...meaning the sacrifice of His flesh. Therefore, all that was written of or preached to Israel pertains to Israel alone.

Then, He also spoke of another fold, at the same time introducing a new form of attaining salvation by being born again of the spirit of God. Which to the gentiles, is the only means other than abiding with Israel before the blood sacrifice. But after the blood sacrifice of Christ, there is no other means by which one may be saved. By this means, if we "believe" it is because the Father has drawn us, which is that spiritual rebirth. Repentance is therefore a foregone conclusion. In other words, if we had not already repented in our heart, God would not have entered in.

 

[H. Richard]

I can acknowledge that I am sinful 7 times 70, but it is meaningless unless I strive to overcome said sin and to turn away from it.

***

If a person could strive to overcome a sin and turn away from it then the Jews religion is the place for them. No one living in sinful flesh can, by their own efforts, stop sinning. If they could there was no need for Jesus to pay for mankind's sins. Sinful flesh will always find a way to sin. We see it in the way a baby acts when it wants something that another baby has.

Personally I get tired of those that say they can stop sinning by turning away from it. Jesus came to save those that know they can not stop sinning in the flesh. IMO, those that say they can are only fooling themselves.

 

[bbyrd009]

yes, you cannot change your mind, no heathen has ever overcome and quit smoking, or some other shortcoming, we are all just either hopeless sinners or God-robots, now pick black or white and be done with it already

ps, rain for the unjust is now cancelled

 

[DPMartin]

I was reading the intro to Galations in my Ryrie Bible the other day and in it he says, "Man is too weak to accomplish self-salvation of self-sanctifcation. … Paul's answer was to proclaim justification by faith plus nothing."

That is far from what he preached! In Acts 26:20 Paul says, "But I showed first to them of Damascus [and everywhere he preached]… that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet of repentance." In Acts 17:30 he was even more forceful. "And the times of this ignorance [of God] God winked at; but now has commanded all men every where to repent." Putting it into the correct order, Paul said in Acts 21:20, "Testifying to both the Jews and also to the Greeks, REPENTANCE toward God, and FAITH toward our Lord Jesus Christ."

So to put it very bluntly, if you have faith alone, your faith is in the gospel and in the Bible but not "toward Christ." And many folks do have faith in the gospel and in the Bible — that they are the true teachings .. the very breath .. of God. But they think that, b/c they have faith in the Bible and the gospel, they are "elect" or saved.

To which I would say, "O foolish Galations, who has bewitched you that you should not obey the truth…?" Well, I think we know now who, right?

skypair

belief is a part of faith correct? how is it anyone would repent without belief? you don't repent to something that isn't there, unless its there. therefore if you don't perceive that God is truly there you can't turn from one thing and then to Him. and you don't believe what you can't perceive, hence God must reveal Himself to the repenter. Paul himself didn't repent until he believed, do to the Lord's revelation to him on the road to Damascus. the revelation makes the believer that repents from what he once believed. by grace through faith and faith includes belief.


what is it with the not faith alone effort anyway? this is your second incorrect attempt, that I'm aware of, to prove that faith alone isn't true.

 

[bbyrd009]

Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous.

 

[skypair]

belief is a part of faith correct? how is it anyone would repent without belief? you don't repent to something that isn't there, unless its there. therefore if you don't perceive that God is truly there you can't turn from one thing and then to Him. and you don't believe what you can't perceive, hence God must reveal Himself to the repenter.

First, it is important to make the distinction between belief (simple assent or agreement) and faith (complete trust in). When a person hears the gospel, they either believe (agree) or disbelieve (in which case, they do away). If one believes the gospel, then one is commanded to repent and receive salvation. If one does this .. and God saves .. then one does receive/have faith (trust in Christ).

Paul himself didn't repent until he believed, do to the Lord's revelation to him on the road to Damascus. the revelation makes the believer that repents from what he once believed. by grace through faith and faith includes belief.

Interestingly, Paul was already saved* before he met Christ on the Damascus road. When he met Christ, he converted from Judaism to Christianity when he met Ananias laid hands on him and he received the Holy Ghost, his eyesight and conversion.

* Read Ro 7:22 (law in his heart) and 7:25 vs. Ro 8:2 (Spirit in his heart).

what is it with the not faith alone effort anyway? this is your second incorrect attempt, that I'm aware of, to prove that faith alone isn't true.

1) Faith is never alone, right? Jas 2:14 — "What does it profit, my brethren, though a man say he has faith, and have not works? can faith save him? The gospel calls for repentance, Acts 2:38, 3:19, 17:30, 20:21 ("repentance toward God and in faith towards Christ"), 26:20. So I ask you, what does faith profit you if you have not repented?

skypair

 

[skypair]

Then, He also spoke of another fold, at the same time introducing a new form of attaining salvation by being born again of the spirit of God.

This is true only if the Father elected only certain people and the death, resurrection, and resurrection of His Son was simply a "sideshow." God just gives the Spirit to whom He will and there is nothing that the "elect" can do or not do for himself.

But after the blood sacrifice of Christ, there is no other means by which one may be saved. By this means, if we "believe" it is because the Father has drawn us, which is that spiritual rebirth. Repentance is therefore a foregone conclusion. In other words, if we had not already repented in our heart, God would not have entered in.

Belief is the point at which we change our mind (head knowledge of God). Repentance is the point at which we we change our heart, our thoughts and ways (Isa 55:7 for instance) and receive salvation and Christ's Holy Ghost (heart knowledge of God). In changing our mind, all we really have is "belief" in our spirit. When we receive salvation, the promise of God, then we have "faith" in our soul (Jas 1:21, 5:20, Heb 10:39).

skypair

 

[DPMartin]

First, it is important to make the distinction between belief (simple assent or agreement) and faith (complete trust in). When a person hears the gospel, they either believe (agree) or disbelieve (in which case, they do away). If one believes the gospel, then one is commanded to repent and receive salvation. If one does this .. and God saves .. then one does receive/have faith (trust in Christ).


Interestingly, Paul was already saved* before he met Christ on the Damascus road. When he met Christ, he converted from Judaism to Christianity when he met Ananias laid hands on him and he received the Holy Ghost, his eyesight and conversion.

* Read Ro 7:22 (law in his heart) and 7:25 vs. Ro 8:2 (Spirit in his heart).


1) Faith is never alone, right? Jas 2:14 — "What does it profit, my brethren, though a man say he has faith, and have not works? can faith save him? The gospel calls for repentance, Acts 2:38, 3:19, 17:30, 20:21 ("repentance toward God and in faith towards Christ"), 26:20. So I ask you, what does faith profit you if you have not repented?

skypair

you don't get it, without belief you don't repent, and if you don't repent you didn't believe.


if Adam and Eve believed and trusted the Lord God in what He said to Adam what we are born into would be completely different. but what they did trust and believe they acted on didn't they? without the belief and trust there is no action toward it, therefore there was no real faith in the first place.

hence its been said that faith without works is no faith at all, and that wraps the issue because if there be no works in respect to what was to be trusted and believed then there was no trust or belief in the same. if you don't believe or trust what someone says because you don't believe or trust that person, then you won't do accord to what that person said. if you believe and trust the person then you believe and trust what the person says, and act accordingly if it concerns you. its not rocket science requiring miles of theology and groups of scholars.


Abraham believed and trusted the Word of God, the evidence and fulfillment of that faith was the works. hence Abraham acted on what God told him according to God's satisfaction.
most people don't get this simplicity, because the don't know the reason they exist.

God gave man His place in the earth, therefore man is to execute God's Judgements. and God's Judgment is life and any other judgment results in death. hence as Jesus says man is not to live by bread along but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God. note that Jesus is the Word of God made flesh that is the Son of God. note who Adam was to be:

Luk 3:38 Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.


therefore the reason many religious types don't like justification by faith is because they want to tell you what the works ought to be, but I don't see them healing, casting out devils, healing lunacy, giving sight to the blind. but you can be sure they have agendas and programs for you to do, and if they don't see what they approve of then in their judgment you're not a Christian. if the Lord walks with you, then His approval is sufficient.

 

[ScottA]

This is true only if the Father elected only certain people and the death, resurrection, and resurrection of His Son was simply a "sideshow." God just gives the Spirit to whom He will and there is nothing that the "elect" can do or not do for himself.


Belief is the point at which we change our mind (head knowledge of God). Repentance is the point at which we we change our heart, our thoughts and ways (Isa 55:7 for instance) and receive salvation and Christ's Holy Ghost (heart knowledge of God). In changing our mind, all we really have is "belief" in our spirit. When we receive salvation, the promise of God, then we have "faith" in our soul (Jas 1:21, 5:20, Heb 10:39).

skypair

The death and resurrection of Christ was not a "sideshow", but the salvation of Israel, for whom He came.

As for head and heart: "those things which proceed out of the mouth come from the heart."

 

[skypair]

you don't get it, without belief you don't repent, and if you don't repent you didn't believe.

Right on!

therefore the reason many religious types don't like justification by faith is because they want to tell you what the works ought to be,

EXACTLY what I am saying! Many theologies have folks do all kinds of works and some say "do nothing." Just believe what they do and you'll be saved.

I hope this is what you are saying.

skypair

 

[skypair]

The death and resurrection of Christ was not a "sideshow", but the salvation of Israel, for whom He came.

Obviously no one who believes the Bible would say that, Jn 7:39. But no one can say He is Lord unless they have obeyed the gospel (Acts 2:38, 1Cor 12:3)

As for head and heart: "those things which proceed out of the mouth come from the heart."

True. And the heart of the lost person is "deceitful and desperately wicked," right? So even though one claims to be a Christian, they will always tell you they came by the wrong way to Christ.

skypair

 

[ScottA]

Obviously no one who believes the Bible would say that, Jn 7:39. But no one can say He is Lord unless they have obeyed the gospel (Acts 2:38, 1Cor 12:3)


True. And the heart of the lost person is "deceitful and desperately wicked," right? So even though one claims to be a Christian, they will always tell you they came by the wrong way to Christ.

skypair

Bazing!

 

[H. Richard]

First, it is important to make the distinction between belief (simple assent or agreement) and faith (complete trust in). When a person hears the gospel, they either believe (agree) or disbelieve (in which case, they do away). If one believes the gospel, then one is commanded to repent and receive salvation. If one does this .. and God saves .. then one does receive/have faith (trust in Christ).


Interestingly, Paul was already saved* before he met Christ on the Damascus road. When he met Christ, he converted from Judaism to Christianity when he met Ananias laid hands on him and he received the Holy Ghost, his eyesight and conversion.

* Read Ro 7:22 (law in his heart) and 7:25 vs. Ro 8:2 (Spirit in his heart).


1) Faith is never alone, right? Jas 2:14 — "What does it profit, my brethren, though a man say he has faith, and have not works? can faith save him? The gospel calls for repentance, Acts 2:38, 3:19, 17:30, 20:21 ("repentance toward God and in faith towards Christ"), 26:20. So I ask you, what does faith profit you if you have not repented?

skypair

***
It isn't the repenting that I take issue with. It is claiming that they will not do that sin again. There are sins that the flesh commits that do not keep the law of loving others as you do your self. Try changing lanes on a freeway from the middle lane to make a left turn and see how much others love you and then remember what you did to others. Most religious people think of BIG sins but it is the little ones that condemn just as much.

To me repentance is my attitude, of thanking God always for making a plan of salvation that saves sinners and I am a sinner saved by grace.

But the religious think admitting that you are a sinner is the wrong thing to do so they never say they are a sinner. So much for repentance.

 

[Richard_oti]

***

If a person could strive to overcome a sin and turn away from it then the Jews religion is the place for them. No one living in sinful flesh can, by their own efforts, stop sinning. If they could there was no need for Jesus to pay for mankind's sins. Sinful flesh will always find a way to sin. We see it in the way a baby acts when it wants something that another baby has.

And a "baby" is just that. One that has not matured, one that has not learned right from wrong : good from evil.

Heb 5:13 For every one that partaketh of milk is without experience of the word of righteousness; for he is a babe. 14 But solid food is for fullgrown men, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern good and evil.

1Pe 3:11 And let him turn away from evil, and do good; Let him seek peace, and pursue it.

Personally I get tired of those that say they can stop sinning by turning away from it. Jesus came to save those that know they can not stop sinning in the flesh. IMO, those that say they can are only fooling themselves.

Thus from my perspective, that perspective makes void Jesus' own words in saying "go and sin no more".