Paul and Faith Alone…

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

BreadOfLife

Well-Known Member
Jan 2, 2017
20,953
3,400
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Scripture is clear that belief + works (obedience) = Faith.

You can have belief - but so do the demons (James 2:19).
You can have works - but they are useless and as "filthy rags" without belief and obedience in God (Isaiah 64:6).

the problem is that people just want to "believe" without being obedient - and they consider this to be "faith."
Sorry folks - faith is impossible without obedience (works) (James 2:14-26).
 
  • Like
Reactions: skypair

skypair

Active Member
Nov 4, 2016
340
42
28
To me repentance is my attitude, of thanking God always for making a plan of salvation that saves sinners and I am a sinner saved by grace.
Try thinking of repentance like the Bible does. Isa 55:7 — "Let the wicked turn from his thoughts and the unrighteous from his ways…" Repentance is a commitment to turn from your sin nature and sin guilt to God's divine nature and righteousness. When you do this, God gives you His Holy Ghost (Acts 2:38) who, dwelling in you, does not sin. Therefore, you are not a sinner by nature anymore (1Jn 3:9) in your heart and soul) but a sinner by chance (we don't practice sin anymore, 1Jn 3:8).

But the religious think admitting that you are a sinner is the wrong thing to do so they never say they are a sinner. So much for repentance.
There are those who claim that they do not sin. What I believe they are saying is that they no longer want to sin against God and against others intentionally. Their sin nature has been replaced by love of God and others and the last thing they want to do is hurt them.

skypair
 

Helen

Well-Known Member
Oct 22, 2011
15,476
21,157
113
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
***
It isn't the repenting that I take issue with. It is claiming that they will not do that sin again. <snip>
Most religious people think of BIG sins but it is the little ones that condemn just as much.

To me repentance is my attitude, of thanking God always for making a plan of salvation that saves sinners and I am a sinner saved by grace.
Amen...Nailed it!!
 

H. Richard

Well-Known Member
Sep 16, 2015
2,345
852
113
Southeast USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
And a "baby" is just that. One that has not matured, one that has not learned right from wrong : good from evil.

Heb 5:13 For every one that partaketh of milk is without experience of the word of righteousness; for he is a babe. 14 But solid food is for fullgrown men, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern good and evil.

1Pe 3:11 And let him turn away from evil, and do good; Let him seek peace, and pursue it.




Thus from my perspective, that perspective makes void Jesus' own words in saying "go and sin no more".
***

From my perspective, if you have committed every sin in the book and turned away from them then you must be perfect and can not sin again. right? I don't think there is a person who does not sin.

What do you do with the blood Jesus shed on the cross? Don't you understand that ALL sins of mankind, past, present and future have been atoned (paid) for.

Heb 10:28-29
28 Anyone who has rejected Moses' law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?
NKJV

If a person rejects the results of Jesus' shed blood then they have insulted the Spirit of grace.
 

Richard_oti

Well-Known Member
Mar 17, 2008
1,170
739
113
***

From my perspective, if you have committed every sin in the book and turned away from them then you must be perfect and can not sin again. right? I don't think there is a person who does not sin.

You construct a "straw man". However, better to turn away and fail now and again, than to not strive. What measure or standard defines "sin".

Heb 12:4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin:


What do you do with the blood Jesus shed on the cross? Don't you understand that ALL sins of mankind, past, present and future have been atoned (paid) for.

Rom 3:25 whom God set forth to be a propitiation, through faith, in his blood, to show his righteousness because of the passing over of the sins done aforetime, in the forbearance of God;


Heb 10:28-29
28 Anyone who has rejected Moses' law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?
NKJV

If a person rejects the results of Jesus' shed blood then they have insulted the Spirit of grace.

Num 15:30 But the soul that doeth aught with a high hand, whether he be home-born or a sojourner, the same blasphemeth YHVH; and that soul shall be cut off from among his people.

Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more a sacrifice for sin
 

H. Richard

Well-Known Member
Sep 16, 2015
2,345
852
113
Southeast USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
You construct a "straw man". However, better to turn away and fail now and again, than to not strive. What measure or standard defines "sin".

Heb 12:4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin:




Rom 3:25 whom God set forth to be a propitiation, through faith, in his blood, to show his righteousness because of the passing over of the sins done aforetime, in the forbearance of God;




Num 15:30 But the soul that doeth aught with a high hand, whether he be home-born or a sojourner, the same blasphemeth YHVH; and that soul shall be cut off from among his people.

Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more a sacrifice for sin

***
In Rom 3:25 God passed over the sins done in the flesh before hand until Jesus shed His blood to pay for those sins. Those that died before Jesus shed His blood were held in a place called paradise until Jesus atoned for their sins.

The sin under discussion in Heb 10:26 is the sin of unbelief in the work of Jesus on the cross. The truth we are to receive is that Jesus did all that is necessary to save those of faith in HIS shed blood. If a person does not accept the work of Jesus on the cross then there is no other sacrifice for sins.

Num 15:30 is under the law of Moses. Today everyone is under grace.

As for striving against sin are people so religious that they think you can save themselves by their efforts? No one can be righteous by their own efforts. That is the reason Jesus came and shed His blood to atone for the sins of mankind. He did it for us. But it seems many wish to do it themselves and that is called being self righteous.
 

BreadOfLife

Well-Known Member
Jan 2, 2017
20,953
3,400
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
There are those who claim that they do not sin. What I believe they are saying is that they no longer want to sin against God and against others intentionally. Their sin nature has been replaced by love of God and others and the last thing they want to do is hurt them.
skypair
Actually - some people I have debated claim they NO LONGER sin. They claim that they are "free" from it and haven't sinned in years. This is completely unbiblical and shows spiritual pride - which is a sin . . .

No real christian wants to offend God - but we stumble.
 

Richard_oti

Well-Known Member
Mar 17, 2008
1,170
739
113
***
In Rom 3:25 God passed over the sins done in the flesh before hand until Jesus shed His blood to pay for those sins. Those that died before Jesus shed His blood were held in a place called paradise until Jesus atoned for their sins.

There are two places in the Luke 16 account. According to what measure was it determined who went where?


The sin under discussion in Heb 10:26 is the sin of unbelief in the work of Jesus on the cross. The truth we are to receive is that Jesus did all that is necessary to save those of faith in HIS shed blood. If a person does not accept the work of Jesus on the cross then there is no other sacrifice for sins.

Oy vey! Willful sin, is to trample under foot the Son of God, to count the blood of the covenant an unholy thing, and to do despite unto the Spirit of grace.

Heb 3:16 For who, when they heard, did provoke? nay, did not all they that came out of Egypt by Moses? 17 And with whom was he displeased forty years? was it not with them that sinned, whose bodies fell in the wilderness? 18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that were disobedient? 19 And we see that they were not able to enter in because of unbelief.


Num 15:30 is under the law of Moses. Today everyone is under grace.

high hand : willful sin


As for striving against sin are people so religious that they think you can save themselves by their efforts? No one can be righteous by their own efforts. That is the reason Jesus came and shed His blood to atone for the sins of mankind. He did it for us. But it seems many wish to do it themselves and that is called being self righteous.

So basically, Jesus preached "another" gospel when he said "go and sin no more".
 

bbyrd009

Groper
Nov 30, 2016
33,943
12,081
113
Ute City, COLO
www.facebook.com
Faith
Christian
Country
United States Minor Outlying Islands
No real christian wants to offend God - but we stumble.
creating is hard, and one might inevitably offend someone not in the loop while doing so; is, i believe, a better frame for that wadr. You cannot offend God, this is your domain. you will reap what you sow, right, takes care of any "offense."
 

H. Richard

Well-Known Member
Sep 16, 2015
2,345
852
113
Southeast USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
There are two places in the Luke 16 account. According to what measure was it determined who went where?




Oy vey! Willful sin, is to trample under foot the Son of God, to count the blood of the covenant an unholy thing, and to do despite unto the Spirit of grace.

Heb 3:16 For who, when they heard, did provoke? nay, did not all they that came out of Egypt by Moses? 17 And with whom was he displeased forty years? was it not with them that sinned, whose bodies fell in the wilderness? 18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that were disobedient? 19 And we see that they were not able to enter in because of unbelief.




high hand : willful sin




So basically, Jesus preached "another" gospel when he said "go and sin no more".

***
Your last sentence is correct. Jesus taught the law to the Jews who were under the law.

In Heb 3:16 what was the sin that caused God to keep them in the wilderness 40 years? If you say sins of the flesh you are wrong. It was the sin of not believing God when He said He would drive the people out of the land. Today, we are to believe God when He said, through Paul, that Jesus did all that was necessary for a person to be saved. If a person does not believe Jesus atoned for all their sins then that person can not be saved.
 

Richard_oti

Well-Known Member
Mar 17, 2008
1,170
739
113
***
Your last sentence is correct. Jesus taught the law to the Jews who were under the law.

You see, this saddens me greatly.

You say we are to believe Jesus shed his blood for our sins: Then you in essence say, that the words of our / your "Saviour" are meaningless. You don't need to take heed of them, no need to listen to them, they don't apply to you. They are "another" gospel. IOW: It is to make void the very words of the "Saviour".

It is such as this, that makes becoming an atheist more attractive than becoming a "christian".

Paul also taught from the Torah and the Prophets. You are in essence saying that it is Paul's "Gospel", in saying that Jesus preached "another" Gospel.

The very Gospel which Paul calls:

Gal 1:7 ... the gospel of Christ.

Gal 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, should preach unto you any gospel other than that which we preached unto you, let him be anathema.

I would rather be anathema, than to chose to make void the very words of our Saviour. To insinuate that they need not be taken heed of or listened unto.

Thus so be it, may I be anathema.


In Heb 3:16 what was the sin that caused God to keep them in the wilderness 40 years? If you say sins of the flesh you are wrong. It was the sin of not believing God when He said He would drive the people out of the land.

Yeah, well from what I what read, it is more than what you state above. Exodus 16 is interesting in this regard as well.


Today, we are to believe God when He said, through Paul,

So again, "another" gospel.


that Jesus did all that was necessary for a person to be saved. If a person does not believe Jesus atoned for all their sins then that person can not be saved.

But we have no need to heed or listen to the words of Jesus. Only those as perceived through Paul.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Dcopymope

Dcopymope

Well-Known Member
May 22, 2016
2,650
800
113
36
Motor City
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
***
Your last sentence is correct. Jesus taught the law to the Jews who were under the law.

In Heb 3:16 what was the sin that caused God to keep them in the wilderness 40 years? If you say sins of the flesh you are wrong. It was the sin of not believing God when He said He would drive the people out of the land. Today, we are to believe God when He said, through Paul, that Jesus did all that was necessary for a person to be saved. If a person does not believe Jesus atoned for all their sins then that person can not be saved.

Really? So if Jesus taught the law to the Jews who were under the law, then so did Paul.

(Hebrews 10:14-17) "For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. {15} Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before, {16} This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; {17} And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more."

(Jeremiah 31:31-34) "¶ Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: {32} Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: {33} But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. {34} And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more."

(Matthew 5:17-20) "¶ Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. {18} For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. {19} Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. {20} For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven."

This defines what it means to be under the new covenant, to be saved by the lamb slain for our sins. You aren't saved because the law was made null and void with Jesus Christs sacrifice, you are saved because the law was fulfilled by his atonement and written within your inward parts. You are seen by God as holy and righteous because he see's the holiness of the law within you. Paul said the same exact thing referring to Jeremiah, and so did Jesus. Jesus never taught a different gospel from Paul, its the exact same gospel. For those who do come preaching "another gospel", the Bible has nothing good to say about them, so I would be very, very careful in accusing Paul of doing so.

(Galatians 1:6-8) "I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: {7} Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. {8} But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed."
 
  • Like
Reactions: Richard_oti

H. Richard

Well-Known Member
Sep 16, 2015
2,345
852
113
Southeast USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
You see, this saddens me greatly.

You say we are to believe Jesus shed his blood for our sins: Then you in essence say, that the words of our / your "Saviour" are meaningless. You don't need to take heed of them, no need to listen to them, they don't apply to you. They are "another" gospel. IOW: It is to make void the very words of the "Saviour".

It is such as this, that makes becoming an atheist more attractive than becoming a "christian".

Paul also taught from the Torah and the Prophets. You are in essence saying that it is Paul's "Gospel", in saying that Jesus preached "another" Gospel.

The very Gospel which Paul calls:

Gal 1:7 ... the gospel of Christ.

Gal 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, should preach unto you any gospel other than that which we preached unto you, let him be anathema.

I would rather be anathema, than to chose to make void the very words of our Saviour. To insinuate that they need not be taken heed of or listened unto.

Thus so be it, may I be anathema.




Yeah, well from what I what read, it is more than what you state above. Exodus 16 is interesting in this regard as well.




So again, "another" gospel.




But we have no need to heed or listen to the words of Jesus. Only those as perceived through Paul.
***

It sadden me that you and those who hold your beliefs think Jesus came to the Gentiles too. He came to the Jews to fulfill all that was said about Him in the OT. He came to His covenant people, not the Gentiles. The Gentiles had no part in the covenant promises of God to the Jews.

Jesus, Himself, said He did not come to the Gentiles when He said this;
Matt 10:5-7 (NKJ)
5 These twelve Jesus sent out and commanded them, saying: "Do not go into the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter a city of the Samaritans.
6 "But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
7 "And as you go, preach, saying, 'The kingdom of heaven is at hand.'

Matt 15:23-24 (NKJ)
23 But He answered her not a word. And His disciples came and urged Him, saying, "Send her away, for she cries out after us."
24 But He answered and said, "I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

Paul said: Rom 15:8 (NKJ)
8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:

Note that in Matt 10:5-7 and Matt 15:23-24 Jesus said He did not come EXCEPT to the house of Israel. Jesus came to confirm/fulfill all that was written of Him in the O.T. His mission was to the Jews, not to the Gentiles. This is what Paul meant in Rom 15:8.

But I know you will not accept what He said. After the Jews rejected Jesus as their Messiah and King you think God reached out to the Gentiles with the same gospel. There is a reason that one gospel is called the gospel of the kingdom and the other is called the gospel of grace. The gospel of the kingdom is the promise of a Messiah and King to set up a heavenly kingdom of the Jews on this earth. The gospel of grace is that Jesus atoned (paid) for all the sins of the world. There is a BIG difference.

But if you wish to be saved under the gospel of the kingdom please be aware that it has been set aside for now.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: mjrhealth

Richard_oti

Well-Known Member
Mar 17, 2008
1,170
739
113
***

It sadden me that you and those who hold your beliefs think Jesus came to the Gentiles too. He came to the Jews to fulfill all that was said about Him in the OT. He came to His covenant people, not the Gentiles. The Gentiles had no part in the covenant promises of God to the Jews.

And yet, was it not written:

Isa 42:6 I, YHVH, have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thy hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;

Isa 49:6 yea, he saith, It is too light a thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.


Jesus, Himself, said He did not come to the Gentiles when He said this;
Matt 10:5-7 (NKJ)
5 These twelve Jesus sent out and commanded them, saying: "Do not go into the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter a city of the Samaritans.
6 "But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
7 "And as you go, preach, saying, 'The kingdom of heaven is at hand.'

Matt 15:23-24 (NKJ)
23 But He answered her not a word. And His disciples came and urged Him, saying, "Send her away, for she cries out after us."
24 But He answered and said, "I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Rom 2:6 who will render to every man according to his works: 7 to them that by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and incorruption, eternal life:

Rom 2:8 but unto them that are factious, and obey not the truth, but obey unrighteousness, shall be wrath and indignation, 9 tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that worketh evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Greek;

Rom 2:10 but glory and honor and peace to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Greek:

Rom 2:13 for not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified:

Rom 2:25 For circumcision indeed profiteth, if thou be a doer of the law: but if thou be a transgressor of the law, thy circumcision is become uncircumcision. 26 If therefore the uncircumcision keep the ordinances of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be reckoned for circumcision?


Paul said: Rom 15:8 (NKJ)
8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:

Rom 4:12 and the father of circumcision to them who not only are of the circumcision, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham which he had in uncircumcision.


Note that in Matt 10:5-7 and Matt 15:23-24 Jesus said He did not come EXCEPT to the house of Israel. Jesus came to confirm/fulfill all that was written of Him in the O.T. His mission was to the Jews, not to the Gentiles. This is what Paul meant in Rom 15:8.

You say all that was written of him, of which, it was written, that he was to be a light unto the gentiles. His "mission", was first to the House of Judah.


But I know you will not accept what He said. After the Jews rejected Jesus as their Messiah and King you think God reached out to the Gentiles with the same gospel. There is a reason that one gospel is called the gospel of the kingdom and the other is called the gospel of grace. The gospel of the kingdom is the promise of a Messiah and King to set up a heavenly kingdom of the Jews on this earth. The gospel of grace is that Jesus atoned (paid) for all the sins of the world. There is a BIG difference.

But if you wish to be saved under the gospel of the kingdom please be aware that it has been set aside for now.

And yet, we are grafted in.
 

bbyrd009

Groper
Nov 30, 2016
33,943
12,081
113
Ute City, COLO
www.facebook.com
Faith
Christian
Country
United States Minor Outlying Islands
But I know you will not accept what He said.
especially being as how He amended that later, ya. I mean, the Good Samaritan--a Gentile--is obviously forwarded by Christ as a good example, so wadr your perspective of "Jews only" should at least take this into account? Doesn't It essentially read like "I came to the divorced, those who have been rejected by God already, who need God the most; this Samaritan Guy, this Gentile, is a great example for you Jews to follow, even though you are not even on the same side of the street as him."
But if you wish to be saved under the gospel of the kingdom please be aware that it has been set aside for now.
got a witness, a v for this? ty
 
Last edited: