Paul said: give thyself to reading of the scriptures

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Willie T

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I am sure you are convinced that you are right but what I said is based on empirical research, so I prefer its findings rather than some guestimate by someone who is not a university professor and hasn't spent years studying the subject.

The more detail you have the shorter the sermon as you forget what is said beyond 20 minutes. Short and sweet is more effective than long and confusing.
I think LC is right. The studies never said you forget everything past the first 20 minutes. In a 45 minute sermon you might have really zeroed-in on something at the beginning, something around the middle, and then, perhaps an interesting point or two near the end.
 
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marksman

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Can we take some time — each of us — and tell here, just what "useful for teaching" actually means to us individually, when it comes to knowing that was said about the Scriptures?

Thank you for the challenge, Willie. I will get back to you once I have delved into its meaning.
 

Helen

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We limit God if we ramble on forever and a day and no one understands what it is all about.

Agree, the longer the 'man at the front' is on his hind legs..the more what he utters get cluttered with 'his ideas' so we end up with a mixture rather than clearly here what God is saying.
 
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LC627

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We limit God if we ramble on forever and a day and no one understands what it is all about.

I 100% agree with you on this. There is a balance. If a pastor is just "filling up" time just to do it then that is not fruitful. This is just my opinion, churches should not tell the pastor he has 20 mins, it should be flexible because some topics require more in-depth presentation.
 
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LC627

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I am sure you are convinced that you are right but what I said is based on empirical research, so I prefer its findings rather than some guestimate by someone who is not a university professor and hasn't spent years studying the subject.

The more detail you have the shorter the sermon as you forget what is said beyond 20 minutes. Short and sweet is more effective than long and confusing.

I've been to churches with short sermons and the only thing I went away grateful for is that I could get to lunch quicker. As I'm growing in my faith I want more Bible and deep teaching and if my pastor can fit it in 20 mins then that's great. My personal concern is that it is difficult (not impossible) to go real deep within 20 min.
 

marksman

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I've been to churches with short sermons and the only thing I went away grateful for is that I could get to lunch quicker. As I'm growing in my faith I want more Bible and deep teaching and if my pastor can fit it in 20 mins then that's great. My personal concern is that it is difficult (not impossible) to go real deep within 20 min.

You have missed the point. When I was teaching, I would give an explanation or a brief synopsis of the subject and then give them a follow-up exercise to expand on their knowledge. This enabled me to find out what they had learnt, rather than me telling them everything and hoping they understood. They much preferred this kind of teaching as it employed their abilities in a far greater way than with me just standing at the front and lecturing them.

I must admit that after 20 minutes most pastors who are not teachers bore me because it is much ado about nothing. When you have been to university for nine years and have three degrees and sat at the feet of some brilliant minds, listening to someone without any training or calling is a pain in the backside.

A friend of mine who was a dynamic preacher said if you haven't struck oil after 20 minutes, quit boring.
 

marksman

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I 100% agree with you on this. There is a balance. If a pastor is just "filling up" time just to do it then that is not fruitful. This is just my opinion, churches should not tell the pastor he has 20 mins, it should be flexible because some topics require more in-depth presentation.

And you do that over several weeks as all educational institutions worth their salt does.
 

Willie T

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I don't have to do anything. it is something i choose to do as I am not the fount of all wisdom and knowledge.
I was really interested in hearing what each of us ALREADY felt about that passage, since we have all read it multiple times over the span of our lives, and have spent years assimilating things by THAT previous understanding. I don't really care, for the purposes of this discussion, what we can find that some stranger said about how we should view it.
 

marksman

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I was really interested in hearing what each of us ALREADY felt about that passage, since we have all read it multiple times over the span of our lives, and have spent years assimilating things by THAT previous understanding. I don't really care, for the purposes of this discussion, what we can find that some stranger said about how we should view it.
Yes I rarely consult strangers.
 

marks

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I used to go to a very boring Bible Study where the leader had every one of about 20 men read, in turn. Only about four of us could capably read out loud, and it was total torture to sit and listen to the rest of them butchering the book. I finally just quit going. They probably got nothing out of their readings, and the rest of us certainly didn't.

At the small group I'm in, we find that even those who don't read well benefit from joining into the reading. One guy sits out, which is fine. One other guy sometimes scoffs at the other's mistakes, which is sad.

Much love!
Mark
 

Willie T

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At the small group I'm in, we find that even those who don't read well benefit from joining into the reading. One guy sits out, which is fine. One other guy sometimes scoffs at the other's mistakes, which is sad.

Much love!
Mark
Frankly, there isn't much of an excuse for someone raised in English schools to be a poor reader of their own natural language.
 

marks

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Frankly, there isn't much of an excuse for someone raised in English schools to be a poor reader of their own natural language.

Really?

What about someone with mental and/or learning disabilities?

What about the man who's IQ is low? How many times do I see people devalue this man! It breaks my heart for people to fail the see the beauty and value of people who might not be wrapped in such a pretty and bright package!

We have to find the place for him most times. And every time he finishes reading, he asks, did I read enough? And every word of Scripture that comes from his mouth is worth more than (your favorite superlative here)!

And when he prays, he believes. And as a friend, he is without guile. Who can you say that of?

Much love!
Mark
 
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Enoch111

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Can we take some time — each of us — and tell here, just what "useful for teaching" actually means to us individually, when it comes to knowing that was said about the Scriptures?
"Useful for teaching" is simply an interpretation (inserted into some of the modern versions). The phrase in the Greek text is ὠφέλιμος (ōphelimos)
πρὸς (pros) διδασκαλίαν (didaskalian) which is literally "profitable for instruction" but spiritually "profitable for doctrine" (that which is taught, indeed taught by the Holy Spirit).

The term "doctrine" is used in the Bible to denote divine teachings given by God and Christ. Therefore "useful for teaching" is a watered down interpretation of profitable for doctrine. "Profitable" means far more beneficial (spiritually) than that which is merely useful. And since Bible doctrine is of the first priority in this verse, the removal of that word is an attempt to minimize the importance of doctrine. And that is exactly what is happening throughout Christendom. Hence so much spiritual confusion.
 

Willie T

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"Useful for teaching" is simply an interpretation (inserted into some of the modern versions). The phrase in the Greek text is ὠφέλιμος (ōphelimos)
πρὸς (pros) διδασκαλίαν (didaskalian) which is literally "profitable for instruction" but spiritually "profitable for doctrine" (that which is taught, indeed taught by the Holy Spirit).

The term "doctrine" is used in the Bible to denote divine teachings given by God and Christ. Therefore "useful for teaching" is a watered down interpretation of profitable for doctrine. "Profitable" means far more beneficial (spiritually) than that which is merely useful. And since Bible doctrine is of the first priority in this verse, the removal of that word is an attempt to minimize the importance of doctrine. And that is exactly what is happening throughout Christendom. Hence so much spiritual confusion.
So, from the Lex-lesson, I guess you mean you don't really know?
 

Willie T

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Really?

What about someone with mental and/or learning disabilities?

What about the man who's IQ is low? How many times do I see people devalue this man! It breaks my heart for people to fail the see the beauty and value of people who might not be wrapped in such a pretty and bright package!

We have to find the place for him most times. And every time he finishes reading, he asks, did I read enough? And every word of Scripture that comes from his mouth is worth more than (your favorite superlative here)!

And when he prays, he believes. And as a friend, he is without guile. Who can you say that of?

Much love!
Mark
Then , I take it, that person would be your choice to hire to stand in the pulpit of your church each Sunday? You know absolutely well we were never talking about people with disabilities, at all.

Seriously, why did you hire an eloquent speaker to be the preacher at your church? Shouldn't you have, instead, gone for the beauty of someone who couldn't communicate well?