Paul, the Stoic

[bbyrd009]

Isa 58:5 Is it such a fast that I have chosen? a day for a man to afflict his soul? is it to bow down his head as a bulrush, and to spread sackcloth and ashes under him? wilt thou call this a fast, and an acceptable day to the LORD?
Isa 58:6 Is not this the fast that I have chosen? to loose the bands of wickedness, to undo the heavy burdens, and to let the oppressed go free, and that ye break every yoke?

the fasting as in v5 we really don't practice anymore, do we? Although we prolly have some analogue for it now i guess, plenty of ppl pray to God as santa claus, or try to make deals with God, i guess. "i'll deny myself in this way, if You will do this" type stuff

fasting as in v6, notice how the language suddenly gets all flowery and interpretive, after the relatively plain/practical language in v5?
or is it just me? "Let the oppressed go free" even seems to indicate that other ppl might be involved in one's fast? although it can be read differently, i guess.
i'd first suggest going to a more comprehensible Tranny lol, i mean "Behold, in the day of your fast ye find pleasure, and exact all your labours." yikes, what a mush

 

[amadeus]

ha, didn't mean interpret it ; that's just my standard reaction to old KJV lol.

Ah, yes, but I am used the KJV even as you are used the special language you speak here on this forum. Truly while many of your more common usages are finally sinking in, I still have to get a translation for a few.

 

[Helen]

Ah, yes, but I am used the KJV even as you are used the special language you speak here on this forum. Truly while many of your more common usages are finally sinking in, I still have to get a translation for a few.

Clever..I agree.
He speaks in tongues..but sometimes I don't have an interpreter present. :)

 

[amadeus]

i guess everyone is different, and it may be possible that some ppl change their minds at the altar for good, i guess; but i have yet to meet any. Does anyone escape "seven worse spirits," do you think? Scripture seems to allow that some do, i guess.

Although I had never thought of it like that I believe that that is what happened to me when a I backslid for about 10 years. It was seemingly impossible to get back because I was worse than I had been prior to be "saved" the first time. One man on an Internet forum caught my testimony and insisted that no one could backslide for 10 years. I did and still do disagree as I disagree with the ones who stand so firmly on OSAS.

But the way i understand Cain, plowing his own ground, killing Abel, the shepherd, seems to frown on any direct methods of "self-improvement," and instead seems to direct a new believer right into "shepherding," which is then poorly described, seems to me, usually turned into "preach/witness at strangers?" And fasting gets pretty much overlooked, seems to me?

There are many things that misunderstood or overlooked in spite of ,or should it be, because of the Bible school or seminary type of education of so many who are called ministers? Most "churches" are such messes in what they do or what they teach, it would seem to be scary for the newby to attend such a place.

i understand maybe not hitting a brand new believer with fasting, but it seems to me the concept never gets picked back up, and instead newbies get hit with "predestination," i mean arg already.

So many people attend where they are taught to accept OSAS, yet, how little most of them must understand about God to presume that this slime pit in which we dwell is other than "hell". Remember the three fold cord?

"And if one prevail against him, two shall withstand him; and a threefold cord is not quickly broken." Ecc 4:12

I see the three parts here highlighted in blue:

"Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward." Matt 6:2

"And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward." Matt 6:5

"Moreover when ye fast, be not, as the hypocrites, of a sad countenance: for they disfigure their faces, that they may appear unto men to fast. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward." Matt 6:16

The verses following each cited verses fill some of the detail. How many of the cords are involved in each of our walks with God?

Gee, i wonder where all of the "i am now saved, and it is no longer possible for me to even sin" ppl are coming from?
when did we forget that sin is looking inward, and forgiveness is supposed to be our looking outward?
instead we forgive ourselves, and look for sin in others?

My point in this argument is: Does God really want things He considers abominable to be practiced in and by the people who are "saved" already? They cannot help it, so it's OK! There are so many of them claiming it who in their flesh are involved regularly in activities abominable to God. Something wrong with that picture even if they cannot see what the scriptures say about it.

 

[amadeus]

such a strange passage, imo; the blind man is not asked about his faith at all, and Christ is portrayed as needing to do more work to heal the guy? i always wondered if the ref to trees was not the hidden point there?
is a strange way to finish the passage too, imo, what with all of the other parable at "seeing clearly" not being accomplished with the eyes at all? Iow there is a sense in which "men as trees" is even arguably a better way to see them?

The message I see in that two part healing is the same message Paul was teaching when he wrote:

"For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known." I Cor 13:12

Traveling from "through a glass darkly" to "face to face" is growing or increasing and so it was with the blind man who received two touches from Jesus. This is another pretty strong argument against OSAS. If a person does not grow toward God, he dies even though he had already received Life from Jesus. Any thing that is really alive, grows.

 

[amadeus]

been there, for sure. brought it on myself tho i guess

It is like the Israelites who were saved out of Egypt? Instead of the promise of Canaan Land they chose death in the wilderness. Was that better than their slavery in Egypt? I wonder...

 

[amadeus]

the fasting as in v5 we really don't practice anymore, do we? Although we prolly have some analogue for it now i guess, plenty of ppl pray to God as santa claus, or try to make deals with God, i guess. "i'll deny myself in this way, if You will do this" type stuff

How does one afflict oneself? If we do not, perhaps we should, but we need to know what it is God wants? For some giving up sports or amusement parks or drinking alcohol might be an affliction. Those won't work for me as they are long since, history only, for me anyway. Perhaps giving up whatever we do enjoy now in this world could be our affliction? For some perhaps giving away all of the best gifts they receive for Christmas or birthdays [if they receive them] might do it.

fasting as in v6, notice how the language suddenly gets all flowery and interpretive, after the relatively plain/practical language in v5? or is it just me? "Let the oppressed go free" even seems to indicate that other ppl might be involved in one's fast? although it can be read differently, i guess.

Consider what you read and said in light of what Jesus said in response to his disciples when they failed to heal someone:

"Then came the disciples to Jesus apart, and said, Why could not we cast him out?
And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.
Howbeit this kind goeth not out but by prayer and fasting." Matt 17:19-21
Two of the three which make up the unbreakable cord!

[/quote]
i'd first suggest going to a more comprehensible Tranny lol, i mean "Behold, in the day of your fast ye find pleasure, and exact all your labours." yikes, what a mush[/QUOTE]
I cannot read other English translations. I understand why you or others might, but I truly cannot. I won't get into the rationale here, but for me that is the way it is.

 

[bbyrd009]

Ah, yes, but I am used the KJV even as you are used the special language you speak here on this forum. Truly while many of your more common usages are finally sinking in, I still have to get a translation for a few.

ha, sorry about that, that's just bad communication i guess. i almost never get asked what do i mean by some phrase, and when i ask others that i usually don't get a reply; i don't get it! so, a blind spot.

 

[bbyrd009]

One man on an Internet forum caught my testimony and insisted that no one could backslide for 10 years.

this strikes me as dangerously ignorant of the plight of the Wanderers, at least. I srsly doubt "backslid" is even a relevant perception there, after a seeker has been recruited in fear (ignorance) of hell, the way we define it; "learning curve" seems more apt to me? "Backslid" just sounds like pure judgement, imo-
"

• The actual schism between Pharisees and Sadducees appears to have been caused by interpretations in regard to the afterlife. The Pharisees believed in posthumous rewards but the Sadducees didn't (Matthew 22:23, Acts 23:8). Hence the Pharisees became a nagging bunch of nitpickers who worried greatly about the coming wrath (Luke 3:7), while the Sadducees embraced the pleasures of this life with practical impunity. Note that the nowadays so popular idea of departing souls drifting off to heavenly bliss is wholly pagan. The Bible in stead teaches the doctrine of bodily resurrection and a national "afterlife" on earth (see Revelation 21:24, and read our article on the Greek word ψυχη, psuche, which means life or soul)."
• The amazing name Sadducees: meaning and etymology

• I did and still do disagree as I disagree with the ones who stand so firmly on OSAS.

  why bother, may as well try to convince a little kid there is no santa claus the day before Xmas lol. yes, Xmas. :)
  
  

 

[bbyrd009]

Most "churches" are such messes in what they do or what they teach, it would seem to be scary for the newby to attend such a place.

hmm, imo the second actually drives the first, as strange as that seems. We seek oracles and miracles, thunder and lightning, not whispers i guess. Who would pay for classes on How to Hate Your Life lol

 

[bbyrd009]

how little most of them must understand about God to presume that this slime pit in which we dwell is other than "hell".

Gehenna is on Erets, but i don't accept that this is hell anymore; chiefly bc that is the perspective of the world, a popular opinion iow. Now, you will catch me arguing Crowd Wisdom in other places--and it might even be interesting to poll this concept and see where the crowd falls--so i'll have to reflect upon the difference, if there is any.

Tares grow with wheat, that i can agree with, and it took quite a while for me to get why we should not pull tares,
but of course new believers are encouraged to do this like Day 1 right

So i would even go as far as to say that if someone thinks they are in hell, then maybe they are, but i can't help but hear "i'm too invested in the world." mostly just to goose you :)
no, really tho

i even have a protocol now for when i find myself...in hell, lol

 

[bbyrd009]

Remember the three fold cord?

"And if one prevail against him, two shall withstand him; and a threefold cord is not quickly broken." Ecc 4:12

I see the three parts here highlighted in blue:

"Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward." Matt 6:2

"And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward." Matt 6:5

"Moreover when ye fast, be not, as the hypocrites, of a sad countenance: for they disfigure their faces, that they may appear unto men to fast. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward." Matt 6:16

The verses following each cited verses fill some of the detail. How many of the cords are involved in each of our walks with God?

nice! i have about 5+ good reflections of the three fold cord now, never saw this one though! Wow, that whole chapter could be subtitled "Threefold Cord" huh?

 

[bbyrd009]

The verses following each cited verses fill some of the detail. How many of the cords are involved in each of our walks with God?

yes, moreover, how many ppl have distorted definitions for one of these?
Fasting you quoted out of Isaiah yesterday, right; fasting to make a deal with God. Alms have been folded into the Tithes Boondoggle, i guess. And i am convinced that Wishes--perfectly acceptable vehicles for real change--have been turned into Prayers--pointless requests for specific things that God does not even hear, usually.

Not sure how i might illuminate this, but "God, please take John's cancer away" is simply not praying in Christ's Name imo.
Of course who wants to contemplate that God sent the cancer, right

 

[bbyrd009]

There are many things that misunderstood or overlooked in spite of ,or should it be, because of the Bible school or seminary type of education of so many who are called ministers?

seems scandalous, huh? We mostly inherit the systems that nonetheless perfectly represent us, and this does not change until we change, i guess. A corollary to that is "Change the 'we' that you include yourself in," although i don't understand what that means yet really, i am just hearing it now.

many pastors are also ready for change, too i guess

 

[bbyrd009]

My point in this argument is: Does God really want things He considers abominable to be practiced in and by the people who are "saved" already? They cannot help it, so it's OK! There are so many of them claiming it who in their flesh are involved regularly in activities abominable to God. Something wrong with that picture even if they cannot see what the scriptures say about it.

then imo if we trust that Scripture is true, we are assured that they will reap what they sow; and while i don't disagree with "caution a wayward bro," that can easily become Pulling Tares i guess. This concept is so tied in with our National Codependency now that i would even read "cautioning" in a different light; and who hasn't noted that cautioning a believer is usually pointless?

Imo the Parable of the Unjust Steward applies here, and all of the commentary i have yet found on the Parable is religious yack
we might even benefit from a thread on it i guess

 

[bbyrd009]

Something wrong with that picture even if they cannot see what the scriptures say about it.

i guess when you take them by the hand instead of trying to gouge their eyes out and replace them, that clears up :)
but i have no idea what that means though lol

 

[bbyrd009]

It is like the Israelites who were saved out of Egypt? Instead of the promise of Canaan Land they chose death in the wilderness. Was that better than their slavery in Egypt? I wonder...

ya, a good analogy; but they obv did not consciously choose death...have to marinate on this one some

 

[bbyrd009]

Perhaps giving up whatever we do enjoy now in this world could be our affliction?

well, i guess if, say, the benefits of quitting _______, smoking or whatever, are not reward enough, then quitting will be perceived as an affliction lol, ya. Point being perception has a lot to do with how one defines "affliction" i guess.

But imo what Isaiah (Ezekiel?) was saying there is, "why are you punishing yourself (fasting) in an attempt to sway God to your pov?"

 

[bbyrd009]

Consider what you read and said in light of what Jesus said in response to his disciples when they failed to heal someone:

"Then came the disciples to Jesus apart, and said, Why could not we cast him out?
And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.
Howbeit this kind goeth not out but by prayer and fasting." Matt 17:19-21

ah, very nice, ya. i am learning to not accept the perspective that the Bible often puts a reader in, as a trap, but that is an interesting device to change the perspective there!

 

[bbyrd009]

My point in this argument is: Does God really want things He considers abominable to be practiced in and by the people who are "saved" already? They cannot help it, so it's OK! There are so many of them claiming it who in their flesh are involved regularly in activities abominable to God. Something wrong with that picture even if they cannot see what the scriptures say about it.

"Does God Create Evil, or Not?" :)

do we punish little kids for sins committed in ignorance, or not?
What sins are not committed in ignorance?