PAUL WROTE DO NOT LISTEN TO THE PRETRIB RAPTURE TEACHERS

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Timtofly

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In what way, and what do you not understand that needs explaining?



Why make Jacob sheep and goats? What not say he is cheese and crackers? Tom and Jerry? What verse says Jacob was a goat? In what way does calling the guy a goat make the tribulation his time of trouble? You are making no sense.




So they save his left leg and nose and the rest goes into hell fire? I guess that's what he gets for being part sheep and part goat? Seriously?




I see. So the people are all dead and there is just little thunders left? Curious. How about goats, any of those running around despite their being no people? Keep us posted.



Oh like a blanket covers the little piggies? In what way does thunder cover stuff? And why does it chose to cover wheat and tares? Why does thunder not do what thunder usually does, make noise?



Maybe you wanted to say in the time of the tribulation is a final harvest? If so, no. There are more believers coming in the 1000 years!


I see. And should we expect the plants to rule well? Keep us posted. I had thought Jesus ruled, where did I go wrong?


So how long is that day? And is the church not doing what the bible said and ruling with Jesus? Did the goats get them lost, or the thunders cover their eyes? keep us posted.


So does that mean after the thousand years? If so you may have accidentally got one right here!



Well, the bride was raptured before the tribulation. The trib saints after the trib. By then the trumpets were all done. The vials that came after the trumpets as well. So you seem to be saying there are no people alive on earth to rule? If so, who do we rule, the goats or the thunders?



Who is 'they'? The people on earth? If they are all suddenly immortals for some reason, then why do they still die as the bible says? (like when a man dies at a hundred years old he will be considered as young as a child)




You know this how? If a generation were, say a hundred years in that time, then you are claiming that for 200 years all the people rebel? How would you know it was all the people? Who are the camp of the saints the wicked surround? How would we know it is all the people? How woulld we know they onlly rebelled stating 800 years into the 1000 years? You make a lot of specific claims all based on....??


I think I humored you long enough with this never ending tale loosely strung together nonsense. Get serious.

I guess if you talk long enough you get something right.
Because Jeremiah calls it that in Jeremiah 30.

If I said Israel most posters use that term for the church.

You ask stupid questions, and then call my explanation nonsense. Obviously you cannot think this out, so don't bother having a decent conversation. Don't be serious for my account, just keep cracking jokes about God's Word as if this topic is not serious enough for you. I never asked for your humor.

The Second Coming is the removal of Adam's dead flesh from the earth. None of Adam's dead corruptible flesh remains on into the Millennium. Figure it out yourself, if you don't like my explanations.
 

Spiritual Israelite

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The yo yo folks think that the gathering together in the air happens and then they immediately go down again. Yo yo is very appropriate.
Calling those who question that childish is false.
Yes, I am aware of that, but I don't believe that. You are talking to me, not them. You are clearly the child here. You are unbelievably immature.

Not clearly. Articulate or vacate.
You clearly don't have the ability to understand what others believe, so I'm not going to waste my time. Look up amillennialism and find out what amillennialists believe.

More blah blah whining rather than clearly posting this supposed position of yours that you think is misunderstood. I could probably post my position clearly in as many words!
I have already done that, but you clearly make no effort to understand what others believe and just make lazy assumptions instead.
 
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dad

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The church's tribulation starting at Pentecost is over at the Second Coming.
No. The church has no time in the tribulation period. You are conflating general trials and tribulations with the specific short period in the end.
Jacob's trouble is just starting at the Second Coming.
No actually. It is over by then and they are all saved. Their troubles end when He returns. So does the Great Tribulation. After that it is peace and laughter and love ever after. No more war. ( the surrounding of the camp of the saints at the end of the thousand years in not so much a war as a BarBQ)

The AoD is the last event to happen, not the first.
That happens in the middle of the seven years. From the time it happens we have the precise time countdown proving that His return to earth with us at the end of it is not as a thief in the night at all. More like a train coming on time and on the right track!

The parable of the fig tree is not the last event, but the first.
I never mentioned that. But if I recall that is saying that when a tree starts to grow leaves, we know it is almost summer. When people alive at the time see the signs (like the leaves starting) we know it is near just like summer.

The order of the events in Matthew 24 is in the reverse order starting from the end to the parable of the fig tree.
That is a mouthful. Maybe it is best to stick to the confused little blob at the end where you compress major events into the same micro second event. Trying to deal with all the vents in a major prophesy chapter would be pointless as long as you are the compress and conflate binge.

Revelation is in the order starting from the Second Coming until the end.
That actually starts with the churches. It finishes with a new heaven and earth.
 

dad

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You keep saying compressing and conflating.
Yes. I sure do. When you squeeze major events into one micro second event that is an apt description.

I have stated the exact opposite.
State whatever you like as long as you continue to conflate and compress for the yo yo theory actions speak louder than statements.

Obviously you cannot even prove I have done that. The time of Jacob's trouble has not even started at the 6th Seal.
I think you said that the return to earth by Jesus (forget the other compresses stuff you tack on to that for now) was at the 6th seal, right? If so then the period of time of that last seven years is over. He returns immediately after that. The time of Jacob's trouble is that period of several years. They all get saved by the end of that and morurn over Him whom they pierced as for an only son and repent. No more trouble! That was all He was waiting for. They will say Blessed is He than comes in the name of the Lord when they see Him.
You claim everything happens at the same time as if Jesus comes and goes many times in a row.
Not true at all. If we go up to be with Him forever before the tribulation period starts, how could that be happening at the same time as the supper and return of Jesus etc? The shoe doen't fit, you are the one that has to wear it. You have the marriage and Rapture and return to earth of Jesus all as one happening! Just wear it honestly. You should be defending it rather than trying to blame others for it.

I have never stated when Jesus evens leaves earth after the 6th Seal.
And why would anyone state such silliness? Who mentioned that? Once He returns to the earth He returns. I see no reason He would not travel both around the world at times, as well as back home to New Jerusalem at times etc. But He has returned and rules earth.
We have not even ironed out the 6th Seal.
What is it you think needs ironing with that seal exactly?
 

David in NJ

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That chapter mentions some dweeb who claimed the resurrection already happened.

2 Timothy 2:18
Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

Perhaps explain how that relates to the issues here? How does that relate to the gathering in the air to come before the wrath of God? Ot the marriage supper or return of Christ? Obviously it is a canard and strawman argument, 100 miles beyond left field with no application here. Has anyone claimed the resurrection came? No. Try to debate honestly and not spam verses.



Why be hung up on the word church? Revelation stops using that word after chapter 4!! (until the end when it was done) So all those believers and witnesses and martyrs etc of that time would best be called something else. To misname them is a lame effort to deny the resurrection that happened for the church.


You do not know what the end is! You (I would suggest by now, purposely) conflate events of the end into one split second yo yo ride! Making a cafeteria of the bible by gluing a word or phrase about one thing onto another verse about something else in a muddled attempt to promote the confused utterances of yoyoism.


Right, it will. Even today it has been preached a fair bit! By the time the church is gathered together one assumes even more! But by the time the verse you posted comes, it is the end of the tribulation, so by then it will have been preached in all the world. Why post this as if it somehow supports yo yo philosophy?


I agree.

He takes that Bride at the Rapture.
All believers are in the family of God. A family has a woman who was the bride, children, a dad, a husband maybe relatives etc etc.
If all believers are as you seem to suggest, supposed to be the bride, then why was the marriage over when Jesus opened heaven and came back to earth? So, I don't know. However we sure can say that we are the bride! Now whether the past and future believers that were not of the church age will be called the church or the bride also, I don't know. Eternity is a long time. Having believers before Jesus came does not mean the believers were inferior or weird. The same goes for the tribulation saints. But I am not sure you would want to call that three different brides? It seems to me bride is a special title for people of the church age who believed in Jesus. Now if the title is also meant to include all believers of all ages one day, well, I would not know one way or the other, or be concerned. It does look to me like the marriage of the Bride of Christ is in heaven and goes on during that tribulation period.






? Why would He not also resurrect the new saints of the tribulation period when He comes? Have you some bible support for that notion? We can add the millennium saints to that list later also!


It does not even relate to it actually. How does some false believer thousands of years ago shooting of his beak about the resurrection being already finished relate to the tribulation or marriage supper, return of Christ to earth, or the rapture?? Do explain. To me that is about like holding up a Cheerio box and touting it as definitive proof the yo yo theory is true. There is not even a connection.
This is what you are lacking.

A.) ACTS ch2 - And with many other words he testified and exhorted them, saying, “Be saved from this perverse generation.” Then those who gladly received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them.
And they continued steadfastly in the apostles’ doctrine and fellowship, in the breaking of bread, and in prayers. Then fear came upon every soul, and many wonders and signs were done through the apostles. Now all who believed were together, and had all things in common, and sold their possessions and goods, and divided them among all, as anyone had need.


B.) 2 Timothy ch2 - You therefore, my child, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus.
And the things that you have heard me say among many witnesses, entrust these to faithful men who will be qualified to teach others as well.

C.) Remind the believers of these things, charging them before God to avoid quarreling over words, which succeeds only in leading the listeners to ruin.

D.) Make every effort to present yourself approved to God, an unashamed workman who accurately handles the word of truth.

E.) This is what you need to turn away from:
But avoid irreverent, empty chatter, which will only lead to more ungodliness, and the talk of such men will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, who have deviated from the truth.

They(pre-trib) say that the resurrection has already occurred(left behind saints/trib saints) and they undermine the faith of some.

pre-trib rapture is lie that speaks many lies in order to support it
 

dad

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Jesus was raised up in his old body. But at the general resurrection we will *not* be a raising up in our old body.

His old body was different if you notice after Hr arose from the dead, just as we will be changed. The old body is part of it but we are changed!


Many will have been cremated, and the elements/ash will have been used and reused over the course of many years. Scattered elements cannot be reassembled, since as elements they can be reused by multiple bodies in their basic elemental forms.

Irrelevant! God keeps the books and knows where to find enough of us to raise us up. It reminds me of an old movie called Starman.



(starting about after the 1:15 sec point)


"Raising us from the dead" will be a restoration of the person to a body, but not to the old body. It will be to a new body.


Not TO an old body FROM an old body. We are changed. Immortal. Incorruptible


Being "raised up" is a metaphorical description of a person coming back from the dead, his spirit being restored to bodily form, even if an entirely new body. The "1st Resurrection" involves not the resuscitation of the old body, but rather, the restoration of the person to an entirely new body.

No I don't think so.


It also reminds me of something I heard long ago that the Hari Chrisnia supposedly believed. Apparently I was told that they think that some sort of angel or spirit comes at some point in their life when they are unaware and takes on hair! Ha. These days with DNA even mankind is aware that DNA holds a lot of info. Imagine what God knows and can use! Whether it is an atom or atoms that somehow remain from us somewhere, DNA, or...whatever He is absolutely able to raise us up and then also change us into a new forever body like He has as well! That is what He is going to do. It doesn't matter that the harichristna thing is just a myth, it gives the idea a little bit what God could actually do.

The dead in Christ on earth will rise first! Whatever is left of their dead bodies and He knows there is enough for each believer that ever died! It matters not at all if it is some bit too small to be detected by the human eye or there is a whole newly dead body!!



Don't try to work out the logistical problems. We cannot engineer a trip to heaven, and a trip back to earth by plane! or by any other form of flight that we know about.



We don't have to know how He opens heaven and comes back to earth with us. His ways are higher than our ways. WE do need to know He will do some things though, not how.

This has been your whole problem from the beginning--trying to figure out how we can be on earth one minute, and then appear on earth in the clouds the next second. It all takes place, ie our Rapture and Immortalization "all stuffed into a burrito!"



No. Being raised in an instant is not any issue or problem whatsoever. My issue with the yo yo philosophy is that they have us doing what the bible says we will no do. That is go through that period of wrath. Then they ignore the glories of spending several years in heaven with Jesus after that, as He promised we would go where He is and that He prepared a PLACE for us. Then they ignore all the reunions in heaven with mothers and fathers and friends and meeting bible heros and having Jesus pass out rewards and crowns etc. Then they ignore the wonderful marriage ceremony and how we are His bride and people forever. Then they try to make it sound like that supper takes place in a festering smelly death filled body filled middle east where birds are eating the dead flesh and men have to cover their noses to be there! They also neglect the reason Jesus is coming to mete out vengeance at last on the wicked and take over planet earth forever and rule with us. And on it goes.


Jesus appears in heaven with all his saints.


In your yo yo theory it is NOT all the saints. There are plenty of dead and living ones one earth still!



By "appearing in heaven" I mean that somehow this is a sign appearing in the sky--Jesus with all of his saints. I don't honestly know what this means, because the description says it is like lightning.

It is what it is.




It may just be a bright light indicating the administration of the world has changed from Satan to Christ. Don't try to figure out the logistics, as I said--it won't be possible.

Ha. No. He is really coming and so are we and they will see Him! Every eye on the planet!




We are told we won't suffer wrath, which refers to *eternal judgment.* That is, the Saved will not suffer Damnation.

Psalm 2:2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the Lord, and against his anointed, saying,
3 Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.
4 He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision.
5 Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure.

That is talking about the time He takes over and smites the nations.

14 The great day of the Lord is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the Lord: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly.


15 That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness,

That is the specific time known as the time of anger and wrath and vengeance etc.




The "wrath" we are saved from does not refer to a "Period of Wrath," which is what Pretribbers say the Reign of Antichrist is. The book of Revelation goes to great lengths to show that Antichrist will be judged. With all of the detail it is thought by Pretribbers that the entire Reign of Antichrist is a "period of wrath."

Of course we are spared from hell. We are also spared from that time of indignation and anger and wrath. For it is the wrath of God. You wouldn't say 'God spares you from 14 rooms in hell, but you will get burned in room number 24.


But it isn't. The reign of Antichrist certainly is a problem for the saints, who suffer persecution.

Not the Bride/church saints!


And certainly God will not bless the earth for following the Antichrist. But for the most part, it is at the end of the reign of Antichrist that God's wrath is poured out.

The worst of it. The whole thing is wrath. When Babylon is destroyed that is wrath. The vials, they are all wrath.


Revelation 15:1
And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.


Jesus has still not returned when the vials are poured out. So what are you going to do with that? Are you going to say, well, I guess the Rapture must be just before the vials toward the end of that seven years before He returns? Either that or you must have us going through the wrath of God! Which is it? The case that the whole seven years is His anger and wrath is not hard to make. If all you demand is a verse using the word wrath in it, well, as stated, there is the one I posted. Are we appointed to that?

This final battle, termed "Armageddon," will undoubtedly kill a lot of saints. But they will not thereby be suffering "God's wrath." Rather, they will be innocent casualties in a battle between God and Satan.


I am not sure. I won't debate that point. I would have to look closer at it. My first thoughts on the matter are that He may take up all the believers like He took us up years before at the Rapture! Take out His ambassadors before the war so to speak. But I think it is more of a trap! God wants those wicked to be in one place. He allowed those frog like demons to gather them there. How is that really a war? It will be a slaughter! Not like they ever had any hope whatsoever of fighting Almighty God! They may have been deluded enough to think they did, but that doesn't weigh into the 'battle' at all. I can just see their face when maybe they suddenly realize that all the believers they hoped to murder en masse before trying to fight God have all disappeared! Maybe they had noted huge migrations of vulture and eagles etc before this. God had ordered all the birds to go to that area already! This is the supper God prepared for them.
 

dad

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I used to believe in the "Gap Theory" about the 70th Week, but gave up on that many years ago. I couldn't sustain that belief against the claim that a "70 Weeks Period" is given as a *sequential period.* To break off the last Week, inserting a gap of over 2000 years, renders it *not* a "70 Weeks Period."

Easy thing to do. Everlasting righteousness will come only after He returns. It did not come for all the world at His first coming. The end to transgressions on earth also will be when He returns! Of course we are already saved ourselves and have that inside. That is not true for all the planet and nations! Add to that the fact Jesus was already cut off back around that 69 week mark. Add to that how the days in the prophesy no matter how you count it point to the time He entered Jerusalem as king within a day or whatever. (due to uncertainties in the calendar and a few things) I will believe it was the exact day and that man is a few days off due to the fog of time etc. In any event, it certainly is over and only one period of seven years from that prophesy remains.


And so, I accepted the majority view of the Church Fathers, who saw the 70 Weeks as a period of time leading up to the death of Messiah, and to the destruction of the temple and Jerusalem following. This is the basis for the historical interpretation of the Olivet Discourse, leaving aside, of course, a future coming of Christ's Kingdom.

Hard to leave the main event aside.
This was not Preterism, but rather, an historically-fulfilled prophecy, still allowing for an age of Gospel Testimony by the Church, replete with Christian persecution. Many OT prophecies were historically fulfilled. The Olivet Discourse description of the "Abomination of Desolation" was no different. It meant that Roman armies surrounded Jerusalem and destroyed the temple, leading to an age-long period of "Great Tribulation" for the Jewish People, who are still awaiting their promised final deliverance.

No that can't work. The countdown from the actual end time abomination till Jesus returns is nothing that relates to that time at all.


I like burritos!


No, nothing says the Marriage Supper is in heaven. That's only where the invitation is announced.

I disagree. The bride was ready. The announcement made it had come. All in a city that is compared to the bride of Christ! Ever wonder why that is?



The Marriage takes place when we are united with Christ in heaven, in less than a second.

In the air does not mean Heaven. Otherwise how would that be His COMING? He is coming to get His bride. But not all the way down to earth. That is another event.


But the celebration follows on earth, and lasts as long as any supper or celebration should last when people inherit a kingdom.

Do we tiptoe over the zombie corpses wearing gas masks and have the caterer airdrop the food?




Sorry, but you seemed to be mocking "flying." We fly using planes. Our arms do not have wings. If you think our new bodies will have wings, then you certainly don't believe our old bodies will be reassembled?

In this body yes. In our new bodies, no, we can fly. Probably we can transport like star trek instantly anywhere in the universe as well and many other things.

That may be reality during the Millennium. The New Jerusalem may remain in heaven, and we may stay there, as well, until the Millennial Period is over.

Not stay, since we rule the world with Jesus. However I see no reason we can't base out of our home there. After all it would take less time to get anywhere on earth from there, than it would to take a bite of an apple.


What I do know is that we appear in the clouds with Jesus when he returns.

Right, because we come back with Him from heaven.


In some sense we will "return as he left," indicating our revelation in the clouds will simultaneously be a landing on the earth. I admit--I don't understand it--I can't figure out the details. Our actual landing on the earth may be more of a "spiritual thing." Our celebration of the Marriage Supper may be more of an invisible thing, unseen by those who remain mortal during the Millennium. This may be a trans-dimensional event--I don't have a clue!


Better to think of them as real things!




Yes, we return with glorified bodies and somehow experience a celebration of our eternal inheritance on earth. At the same time birds will gorge themselves on the corpses of those killed in the Battle of Armageddon. What takes place among mortals will not affect those who have new glorified bodies. It will be, more or less, a celebration of victory, rather than a horrified look at bodies being eaten.

We will see all that probably but be able to leave the area and/or not smell if we want etc etc.




Again, my own view is that Dan 12 is a kind of summary of the book, referring to two major events already mentioned in the book. They were of particular import because Israel's future would hang in the balance with these two still-future events.

The 1st event is mentioned in 12.7, the 3.5 years of Antichrist's reign. The 2nd event is mentioned after that, with the 1290 days and 1335 days. This was the reign of Antiochus 4.

No because it is all set in the end time. The prophesy like other prophesies jumps into the future from talking about that man long ago. He was just a shadow and small sample of things to come.
 

Spiritual Israelite

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This is what you are lacking.

A.) ACTS ch2 - And with many other words he testified and exhorted them, saying, “Be saved from this perverse generation.” Then those who gladly received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them.
And they continued steadfastly in the apostles’ doctrine and fellowship, in the breaking of bread, and in prayers. Then fear came upon every soul, and many wonders and signs were done through the apostles. Now all who believed were together, and had all things in common, and sold their possessions and goods, and divided them among all, as anyone had need.


B.) 2 Timothy ch2 - You therefore, my child, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus.
And the things that you have heard me say among many witnesses, entrust these to faithful men who will be qualified to teach others as well.

C.) Remind the believers of these things, charging them before God to avoid quarreling over words, which succeeds only in leading the listeners to ruin.

D.) Make every effort to present yourself approved to God, an unashamed workman who accurately handles the word of truth.

E.) This is what you need to turn away from:
But avoid irreverent, empty chatter, which will only lead to more ungodliness, and the talk of such men will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, who have deviated from the truth.

They(pre-trib) say that the resurrection has already occurred(left behind saints/trib saints) and they undermine the faith of some.

pre-trib rapture is lie that speaks many lies in order to support it
Agree. But, I think he's not understanding that you're not saying that he believes the resurrection has already occurred, but rather that he believes the resurrection will occur (7 years?) before it actually will.
 
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dad

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Because Jeremiah calls it that in Jeremiah 30.
Calls what that? It looks to me like that is about the tribulation period also called the time of Jacob's trouble. So...what about it?

If I said Israel most posters use that term for the church.
I see. I think of Israel as Israel. Even though believers are the true Israel because they love God, I think that the last seven year period focuses largely on the nation and people of Israel to get them saved, as many as possible finally.

The Second Coming is the removal of Adam's dead flesh from the earth.
I don't think so. There are still nations of people we rule over. Adam will even be here with us helping!

None of Adam's dead corruptible flesh remains on into the Millennium. Figure it out yourself, if you don't like my explanations.
Your statement was not supported. It is not an explanation but a dogmatic pronouncement. It has about as much weigh as saying woof woof.
 

dad

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Yes, I am aware of that, but I don't believe that. You are talking to me, not them.
Ok, so do you talk back? Tell us clearly what you have to say. If you read other posts here you might notice I am dealing with several people that are dyed in the wool yoyoists. You need to stand out by posting a distinct position.


Look up amillennialism and find out what amillennialists believe.
Ok, done
"Amillennialism holds that while Christ's reign during the millennium is spiritual in nature, at the end of the church age, Christ will return in final judgment and establish a permanent reign in the "new heaven and new Earth."

Obviously a pile of nonsense. I can understand your hesitancy in being clear about it. Jesus returns before the 1000 years, period.
 

dad

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This is what you are lacking.

A.) ACTS ch2 - And with many other words he testified and exhorted them, saying, “Be saved from this perverse generation.” Then those who gladly received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them.
And they continued steadfastly in the apostles’ doctrine and fellowship, in the breaking of bread, and in prayers. Then fear came upon every soul, and many wonders and signs were done through the apostles. Now all who believed were together, and had all things in common, and sold their possessions and goods, and divided them among all, as anyone had need.


B.) 2 Timothy ch2 - You therefore, my child, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus.
And the things that you have heard me say among many witnesses, entrust these to faithful men who will be qualified to teach others as well.

C.) Remind the believers of these things, charging them before God to avoid quarreling over words, which succeeds only in leading the listeners to ruin.

D.) Make every effort to present yourself approved to God, an unashamed workman who accurately handles the word of truth.

E.) This is what you need to turn away from:
But avoid irreverent, empty chatter, which will only lead to more ungodliness, and the talk of such men will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, who have deviated from the truth.

They(pre-trib) say that the resurrection has already occurred(left behind saints/trib saints) and they undermine the faith of some.

pre-trib rapture is lie that speaks many lies in order to support it
The author you quoted was not an apostle or even interesting or accurate. Not even close to 'apostles doctrine'.
 

Spiritual Israelite

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Ok, so do you talk back? Tell us clearly what you have to say. If you read other posts here you might notice I am dealing with several people that are dyed in the wool yoyoists. You need to stand out by posting a distinct position.
I did, but you don't pay attention because you have it in your mind that there are only pre-trib premils and post-trib premils and no one has any other beliefs besides those.

Ok, done
"Amillennialism holds that while Christ's reign during the millennium is spiritual in nature, at the end of the church age, Christ will return in final judgment and establish a permanent reign in the "new heaven and new Earth."

Obviously a pile of nonsense. I can understand your hesitancy in being clear about it. Jesus returns before the 1000 years, period.
Your pre-trib rapture beliefs are the biggest pile of nonsense that exists amongst any doctrines that Christians believe in. It is a theory that can't be supported by scripture in any way, shape or form.

Tell me how you interpret this passage:

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare. 11 Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives 12 as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. 13 But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells.
 

Keraz

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There is no 'rapture to heaven', Our destiny as faithful believers is to occupy all of the holy Land, being His witnesses, Isaiah 43:10, John 15:27, and the Light to the nations. Isaiah 49:3-8, Matthew 5:14-16

Jeremiah 8:10 ..... the Lord will give the Land to new owners.
Ezekiel 36:24-30 I shall take you out of the world, gather you from every land and bring you back to your homeland. I will purify you of everything that defiles you. You will have a new heart and I will put My spirit within you and you will desire to only follow My Laws.
Then you will live in the Land
that I had given to your forefathers. You will be My people and I will be your God. Having saved you from all that defiles you, I shall command the Land to be plentiful, trees will bear abundant fruit and the soil will produce heavy crops. Never again will you suffer famine.


Our S[iritual forefathers are ancient Israel and we Christians are todays Israelites of God, the Overcomers for Him.
Obviously, these Prophesied do not apply to the Jewish State of Israel, who are in the holy Land as apostate and Jesus rejecting people. Their fate is well prophesied and only a remnant of the Messianic Jews will survive. To join their brethren: Jeremiah 50:4-5, AFTER the entire Middle east area is cleared and cleansed. Deuteronomy 34:43, Zephaniah 1:14-16< +
 
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David in NJ

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Agree. But, I think he's not understanding that you're not saying that he believes the resurrection has already occurred, but rather that he believes the resurrection will occur (7 years?) before it actually will.
CORRECT

@dad, in his preaching of 'pre-trib' is speaking the same cancer as 2 Tim 2:15-18 but is projecting it forward in the lie of 'pre-trib'.
 
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David in NJ

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The author you quoted was not an apostle or even interesting or accurate. Not even close to 'apostles doctrine'.
Do you believe that the Apostle Paul was not an Apostle of Christ?
 

dad

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I did, but you don't pay attention because you have it in your mind that there are only pre-trib premils and post-trib premils and no one has any other beliefs besides those.
If you did I guess it wasn't very memorable, but thanks I guess.

Your pre-trib rapture beliefs are the biggest pile of nonsense that exists amongst any doctrines that Christians believe in. It is a theory that can't be supported by scripture in any way, shape or form.
Don't blame us if you condense events or confuse orders and prophesies or whatever. Seems clear as a bell to me. But if you are the guy that admitted believing Jesus does not return to earth till after He has already ruled it 1000 years, well, sorry I have the big gong ready to go.

Tell me how you interpret this passage:

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief.
No one knows when the Rapture will be and that starts the day of the Lord.

The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare.

In that day, specifically after the 1000 year rule of Jesus in that day, the earth is burned and recreated along with the heavens.


11 Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives 12 as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat.
Exactly, in the appointed time after the 1000 years. It is on the itinerary.
13 But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells.
We sure are. But of course first we start off on this earth with Him ruling totally for 1000 years.
All very simple.
 

dad

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There is no 'rapture to heaven', Our destiny as faithful believers is to occupy all of the holy Land, being His witnesses, Isaiah 43:10,
Add the whole world to that and make if after Jesus returns to earth and you are close.

John 15:27, and the Light to the nations. Isaiah 49:3-8, Matthew 5:14-16
All that good stuff will He and we do when we return to earth. Which will be from heaven and immediately after the tribulation. Simple.


Jeremiah 8:10 ..... the Lord will give the Land to new owners.
Ezekiel 36:24-30 I shall take you out of the world, gather you from every land and bring you back to your homeland. I will purify you of everything that defiles you. You will have a new heart and I will put My spirit within you and you will desire to only follow My Laws.

He sure will after they repent and all get saved at the end of the Great Tribulation around or at the time He returns to earth to rule. What problem do you imagine here??

Then you will live in the Land that I had given to your forefathers. You will be My people and I will be your God. Having saved you from all that defiles you, I shall command the Land to be plentiful, trees will bear abundant fruit and the soil will produce heavy crops. Never again will you suffer famine.
Great news for the Jews. After they repent God restores them. Have you a reason for posting these particular verses, or was it random?


Our S[iritual forefathers are ancient Israel and we Christians are todays Israelites of God, the Overcomers for Him.

That doesn't erase the people of that nation and all the promises to them. Not the same promises as to us. Our home is New Jerusalem and our place is the bride of Christ and co rulers in the world to come. Have you some interest in living on earth in the borders of the promised land instead? I think the Jews when they get saved will want and get that.

Obviously, these Prophesied do not apply to the Jewish State of Israel, who are in the holy Land as apostate and Jesus rejecting people.
Of course they do after they get saved. (although most will be killed first) The remnant will be saved.

Their fate is well prophesied and only a remnant of the Messianic Jews will survive.

That is a lot of folks. Maybe millions. If most got killed and there were say 16 million of them
that would leave what, over 5 million left? Not too shabby.


To join their brethren: Jeremiah 50:4-5,
Great all Israel remaining gets saved. Simple.
AFTER the entire Middle east area is cleared and cleansed. Deuteronomy 34:43,
Right soon as they look to Him He wipes out their enemies and restore them to the land. What issue do you have with this.