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Perpetual virginity of Mary mother of God!

Discussion in 'Unorthodox Doctrine Forum' started by theefaith, Dec 8, 2021.

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  1. Ronald Nolette

    Ronald Nolette Well-Known Member

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    Well in teh sense that "will keep when presented in PAI is an action to immediately occur and not in some undefined time, I agree, but other there are differences.

    What it does say is that to not engage in sex is to not be officially married.

    Let me make this simple.

    In Luke Mary said How can this be, I have nod hat sex with a man.

    Then in Matt. It says and Joseph did not have sex with her until their first born was born. UNtil is not a conditional but a statement of fact.

    And I did some double checking- there is noi allowance for an historic future in the PAI, in the present there is what is known as an historic present but that is not PAI.

    If Mary meant to say she will not have sex ever she would have used the FAI, or FAImp. or the PAI or PAImp.

    They were considered married but the marriage did not take place until intercourse. That is why the bridegrooms stood outside the "honeymoon suite" the first night to through hearing, witness the consummation of the marriage. In Jewish culture there is a difference. YOu are bringing your 21st century gentile mindset to the 1st century Jewish culture.


    And the bible clearly shows they did!

    23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

    24 Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife:

    25 And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name Jesus.

    Sorry Mungo but you can't get around it . The know here is hte same as in the Luke passage- SEX! Until is not a conditional or a possible, but a simple conjunction defining a time.

    IOW We could say "And Joseph continued to refrain from having sex with Mary only until Jesus was born".

    It is just like it reads.
     
  2. marksman

    marksman My eldest granddaughter showing the result of her

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    Correct. There is nothing in scripture about Mary being a perpetual virgin. End of story.
     
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  3. Mungo

    Mungo Well-Known Member

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    You are floundering around like a fish out of water with lots of claims but no evidence.

    Here is a revue (with evidence) of the points I made, and which you have failed to refute.

    1. Mary is in the first stage of marriage - we agree on that.
    At this stage she is legally married to Joseph.
    "Once kiddushin is complete, the woman is legally the wife of the man. The relationship created by kiddushin can only be dissolved by death or divorce." (Judaism 101)
    Hence Mt 1:19 "and her husband Joseph, being a just man and unwilling to put her to shame, resolved to divorce her quietly."

    2. A sexual relationship only started when the husband took her into his home (nisuin). Therefore a child would not be expected before nisuin too place. A wife would be hoping for a child after nisuin was completed.

    3. The angel Gabriel comes to Mary and tells her that, at some unspecified time in the future, she will conceive and bear a son (Lk 1:31). The normal presumption is that would happen after nisuin is complete.

    4. But Mary asks a surprising question How shall this be, seeing I know not a man? (Lk 1:34). That question makes no sense if Mary is referring to now. It does make sense if she is referring to the future (after nisuin) - if she had no intention of consummating the marriage- i.e. made a vow of perpetual virginity because she is not expecting to have a sexual relation with Joseph.

    Although the words are in the present tense in the Greek I gave three quotes from experts that say that the Greek tense used can refer to the future.

    Blass and Debrunner in A Greek Grammar of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature say 'in confident assertions regarding the future a vivid realistic present may be used for the future’ (Blass & A. Debrunner, A Greek Grammar of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, translated and revised by R. W. Funk, Chicago and Longon, 1961, p. 168, & 323)

    John McHugh in 'The Mother of Jesus in the New Testament' says I would suggest that in Lk 1:34 the present tense is employed with the force of a future……. Thus the most accurate translation of Lk 1:34 would be 'How shall this be since I am not to know a man?'

    Greek expert J.Gresham Machen (Protestant) wrote "This solution [of a vow of virginity] certainly removes in the fullest possible way the difficulty…. No objection to it can be raised from a linguistic point of view; there seems to be no reason why the present indicative, "I know" , could not be taken as designating a fixed principle of Mary's life that would apply to the future as well as the present.(my emphasis)

    I also gave an example of the same Greek tense where it clearly does refer to the future (Mt 26:18) I shall celebrate the Passover with my disciples. The verb is actually in the present tense, literally “I am holding the Passover with the disciples of me.” but clearly refers to the future.

    I also gave an analogy (not smoking) where the use of the present tense only makes sense if it also applies to the future..

    Also, the Protoevangelium of James tells how Mary was dedicated to God at an early age. This fits with Mary’s intention to remain a virgin. Yes, it's not scriptural but it is evidence.

    Regarding the "until "clause.
    1. It actually supports my claim that Mary had taken a vow of perpetual virginity. In ancient Judaism a couple would consummate the marriage on their wedding night (nisuin). It was the climax of the wedding celebration taking place in the "bridal chamber" (see MT 25:1-13). So Matthew is making the point that they did not consummate the marriage. This supports the idea that Mary had taken a vow of perpetual virginity.

    2. Mt 1:25 cannot be used to prove that Mary had a sexual relationship with Joseph. To infer it is to claim what has yet to be proved.
    The word until (or till) denotes a point in time up to which some action occurred. Neither it, nor the Greek heos from which is translated, mean that the action changed, only that there was something significant about that point in time. That point in time may be significant for reason other than a change in the action. What happened after that may be explicitly stated or may be inferred from the context, or may just be left unknown. To claim it always means the action changes is not valid and leads to absurdities.

    Consider this line: "Michal the daughter of Saul had no children till the day of her death" (2 Sam. 6:23 - NRSV).
    Are we to assume therefore she had children after her death? NO

    There was also a prophetess, Anna, the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Asher. She was advanced in years, having lived seven years with her husband after her marriage, and then as a widow until (heos) she was eighty-four.” Lk 2:36-37).
    Does that imply she got married at the age of 84? NO

    Jesus said to the Apostles “And remember, I am with you always, to (heos) the end of the age.” (Mt 28:20).
    Does that mean he won’t be with us after the end of the age? NO

    but to [until] this day no one knows the place of his [Moses] burial
    (Deut 34:6)
    Do we know the place of Moses burial? NO

    For he [Christ] must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. (1Cor 15:25)
    Will Christ stop reigning after he has put all his enemies under his feet? NO

    Until I arrive, attend to the reading, exhortation, and teaching.(1Tim 4:13)
    After Paul arrives will Timothy stop reading, exhortation and teaching? NO

    We know that all creation is groaning in labour pains even until now; (Rom 8:22)
    Has creation stopped groaning? NO

    except that you must hold fast to what you have until I come.
    (Rev 2:25)
    Do we stop holding fast after Christ comes? NO

    To the victor, who keeps to my ways until the end, I will give authority over the nations.
    (Rev 2:26)
    Do the victors stop keeping Christ’s ways at the end? NO

    keep the commandment without stain or reproach until the appearance of our Lord Jesus Christ (1Tim 6:14)
    Could Timothy stop keeping the commandments when Jesus appeared? NO
     
  4. Mungo

    Mungo Well-Known Member

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    Read the posts instead of making silly comments.
     
  5. theefaith

    theefaith Well-Known Member

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    not rewriting but biblical principles
     
  6. theefaith

    theefaith Well-Known Member

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    Mary is the temple of God, God consecrated and dwelt in this temple for 9 months and it cannot be used for a ordinary purpose, anymore than you could hold a teen rock & roll dance in the holy of Holies in the temple of God?

    King david has love of Mary!

    Psalm 26:8
    Lord, I have loved the habitation of thy house, and the place where thine honour dwelleth.
     
  7. theefaith

    theefaith Well-Known Member

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    there is only one church founded by Christ on Peter and the apostles Matt 16:18-19 Jn 10:16
     
  8. theefaith

    theefaith Well-Known Member

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    All others are tradition of men sects teaching errors of all kinds

    the true church cannot teach error Jn 16:13
     
  9. theefaith

    theefaith Well-Known Member

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    I never said it would be a sin

    mary long before even knowing Joseph made a vow of her virginity to God as a sacrifice of herself
    For humility: she did not think herself worthy to be the mother of God!
    And because she was conceived immaculate, her immaculate purity allowed her to see God even from her mothers womb, and she loved him completely and offered herself completely to God forever!

    Matt 5:8 Blessed are the clean of heart: for they shall see God.
     
  10. JohnPaul

    JohnPaul Soldier of Jehovah and Christ

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    So you are saying after Christ’s birth Mary never had normal relations with her husband, never had any other children after Jesus was born, she remained a Virgin till her death?
     
  11. Ronald Nolette

    Ronald Nolette Well-Known Member

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    Well it makes ssense to those who accept Mary's perpetual virginity.

    Mary is in the betrothal stage of her marriage. she is not allowed to have sex with Joseph according to Jewish law. she has not had sex with any man, and she doesn't expect to have sex until after the ceremony.

    Like it says:

    Matthew 1:25
    King James Version

    25 And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name Jesus.

    Mary told Gabriel, " How can I get pregnant? I haven't had sex with a man" and as a good Jewish girl, she does not expect to have sex until nisuin.

    Then God tells us that Jospeh refrained from sex only until Jesus was born (and then until teh days of purification were completed we assume).

    It really is that simple.

    If Mary had taken a vow of virginity she would have deceived Joseph . Marriage was for procreation and pleasure according to God.
    The language of Mary does not allow a perpetual virginity. If shew was never God would have inspired the future indicative or the the future imperative Not the present active indicative. You argument about Passover doesn't stand for they were going to have Passove in the present, not some undefined future time. a few minutes not the future do not negate the fact it was occurring in the present. They had to secure the place, prepare the place and prepare the meal. Sorry but there is not a future reference in your example. It was the day of preparation for th epassover.

    But all this aside The bible gives one phrase that shows Mary did not remain a virgin:

    Matthew 1:25
    King James Version

    25 And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name Jesus.

    To put it into modern English- " Joseph did not have intercourse with his wife Mary, UNTIL she gave birth to her firstborn son, and Joseph called his name Jesus.

    Show me one place where Gods Word is wrong here.
     
  12. Ronald Nolette

    Ronald Nolette Well-Known Member

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    Well not God's Word . somebody else's sure, but definitely not God's biblical priniciples.

    One passage shatters the myth you believe:

    Matthew 1:25
    King James Version

    25 And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name Jesus.

    This biblical principle from this?

    Joseph had intercourse with his wife after Jesus was born.
     
  13. post

    post Well-Known Member

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    what is wrong with these catholics and their false traditions?

    Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joses, and of Juda, and Simon? and are not his sisters here with us?
    (Mark 6:3) ​

    smh
     
  14. Ronald Nolette

    Ronald Nolette Well-Known Member

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    They have been trained by the RCC to not accept words at their normal usual and common meaning.
     
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  15. post

    post Well-Known Member

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    i think it's pretty clear to the rest of us that many Gentiles being converted in ancient times were accustomed to pantheistic goddess worship, so the corrupt RCC accomodated that.

    hence all this praying to Mary etc.


    Baal & Ashereh
    et al
     
  16. Ronald Nolette

    Ronald Nolette Well-Known Member

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    Here is the harsh problem. When they pray to saints and angels and Mary as queen of heaven, they do not call it praying like they do to God.

    Though it involves all the same stuff, same positions, same respect similar words etc. They consider it just a step less than the worship they give God.

    But Pres, Bush described this perfectly:

    If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, its a duck.
     
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  17. post

    post Well-Known Member

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    5xpdh1.jpg
     
  18. Mungo

    Mungo Well-Known Member

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    All your points are answered in my post.
    You just don't want to answer them so you flop around regurgitating failed claims with no evidence.
     
  19. Mungo

    Mungo Well-Known Member

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    Nowhere does scripture say they are Mary's children
     
  20. Mungo

    Mungo Well-Known Member

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    Ah!
    Can't answer my post about Mary being a perpetual Virgin so you try to divert on to another topic.
    That's effectively admitting you failed.
     
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