Perpetual virginity of Mary!

[theefaith]

Everyone is a sinner. Even Mary.
She needed a saviour as much as anyone else does.

preserved from original sin and all sin by the special privilege of God in virtue of the merits of Jesus Christ! Gen 3:15 enmity, none of satans works are in Her!

Song of Solomon 4:7
Thou art all fair, my love; there is no spot in thee.

lk 1:49

 

[theefaith]

When you can find some biblical proof that James and John were not the brothers of Jesus, get back to me.

What you have presented is Catholic Spin. Made up conclusions, implications, and guess-work. The Bible said Jesus had brothers. PERIOD.

No council can change those facts.

Mary was a sinner just as the Bible teaches. All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God - Romans 3:23

I sent it in a pm why not reply do you not like pm’s I am respectful and only reply with scripture

 

[theefaith]

Luke affirms that Mary said: 'My spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour'. She, too, needed the Saviour.

Mary was preserved from sin by the merits of Jesus so He is still Her savior!

 

[theefaith]

This is refreshing. Still it shows that the book known as the Bible, has no meaning for some folks. I provided the verses that show Jesus had brothers.

I love these tactics that has one trying to defend what can not be defended. Here is another example of how ineffective these claims are. The Bible doesn't talk about an ascaris, a F-16 fighter jet, a jacuzzi, or a Toyota car, but wonder of wonders, they exist.

There is little to be gained here. If one does not believe the Bible, and instead relies on Catholic spin, well, it is what it is.

Is lot Abraham’s brother?

 

[theefaith]

If you are a serious studier of the Bible you will know that there are many beliefs that are not explicitly stated in the Bible but are based on a build up of evidence. The demand for a verse that explicitly states "X" or "Y" is a copout from examining the evidence.

Much evidence has been given for the belief in the perpetual virginity of Mary. If all you have in opposition to that is that the Bible speaks of brothers (and sisters) of Mary then you only have flimsy evidence. Let's review this "brothers" evidence.

Here are 8 points to consider.
1. There is no genealogy in the Bible that goes past Jesus.

2. Nowhere does the Bible say that Mary had other children.

3. There are different kinds of brothers (and sisters) - full blood brothers, half brothers, adoptive brothers. If a man and woman marry and both have children by a previous marriage they will be regarded as brothers and sisters even though they have no genetic relationship. The actual relationship of these “brothers” to Jesus cannot be established unless a genealogy is given, and it is not.

Secondly the word brother can be used in a very loose sense. In Aramaic there is no word for cousin and the word for brother (aha) would include cousin or even nephew. Whilst Greek does include a word for cousin but it is quite possible to translators/writers just used the Greek adelphos to replace the Aramaic aha. Moreover the Greek word for brother (adelphos) was also used very loosely for various degrees of kinship.

In the Greek translation of the Old Testament (the LXX) the word adelphos is used for Lot’s nephew (Gen 14:14). Other similar examples can be given.

Paul says in Col 4:7 & 9
“Tychicus, my beloved brother [adelphos]……..together with Onesimus, a trustworthy and beloved brother [adelphos]”. We know from the letter to Philemon that Onesimus was actually a runaway slave, not Paul’s brother (or cousin).

4. An important argument from a theological perspective is that always, when a birth is announced by an angel of a son, it is a matter of an only son.

• Isaac (Gen 18:10)
• Samson (Judges 13:4)
• John the Baptist (Lk 1:13)

If these were figures of the Messiah, it would be illogical that they would be only sons, and the one represented by them were not like them.

5. There is no mention of other children when we might expect there to be.
a) When Luke tells us about the family in Nazareth, he only mentions three persons, not more. (Lk 2:41-52) When Jesus was lost in the temple, Joseph and Mary did not return with other sons. If one were lost, surely they would not leave the others (if there were any) at risk of losing them as well.

b) John tells us that Mary was at the wedding at Cana (John 2) and Jesus was also invited with his disciples. Surely any other children of Mary would have been there (it would have been rude not to invite them) but John mentions none.

6. At the cross Jesus, asks John to look after Mary. If there had been other children Jesus would not have done that.

7. In John 7:3-4 we read So his brothers said to him, “Leave here and go to Judea, that your disciples may see the works you are doing. For no man works in secret if he seeks to be known openly. If you do these things, show yourself to the world.” In that culture it would have been very disrespectful for younger brothers to speak to an elder like that. That implies the brothers were older than Jesus and therefore not Mary's children.

8. Finally there indications in scripture that the brothers and sisters referred to in Mt 13:55 (and the equivalent in other gospels) are not Jesus brothers in any genetic sense.

Mark says that at the foot of the cross was “Mary the mother of the younger James and of Joses [Joseph], and Salome” This was obviously not Mary the mother of Jesus, so there is another Mary with sons called James and Joseph.

Matthew similarly says of the women at the foot of the cross “Among them were Mary Magdalene and Mary the mother of James and Joseph” (Mt 26:56)

Luke says that at the tomb were “Mary Magdalene, Joanna, and Mary the mother of James” (Lk 24:10)

John says “Standing by the cross of Jesus were his mother and his mother’s sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary of Magdala.” (Jn 19:25). Now this could mean that Jesus’ mother’s sister was there (whatever is meant by “sister”) and Mary the wife of Clopas or they were the same person, but either way there were at least three Mary’s at the cross – Mary the mother of Jesus, Mary the wife of Clopas and Mary of Magdalene. Now Mary the mother of James and Joseph could have been a fourth or she could have been Mary wife of Clopas (let's call her Mary Clopas) Either way Mary the mother of Jesus was not the mother of James and Joseph mentioned as Jesus’ brothers. And since they were listed first, neither was Simon and Judas, since if the were they would hardly have been listed after non-brothers.

The Church historian Eusebius quoting from Hegesippus (110-180 AD) writes
After the martyrdom of James and the conquest of Jerusalem which immediately followed, it is said that those of the apostles and disciples of the Lord that were still living came together from all directions with those that were related to the Lord according to the flesh (for the majority of them also were still alive) to take counsel as to who was worthy to succeed James. They all with one consent pronounced Symeon, the son of Clopas, of whom the Gospel also makes mention; to be worthy of the episcopal throne of that parish. He was a cousin, as they say, of the Saviour. For Hegesippus records that Clopas was a brother of Joseph.

So Symeon (Simeon, Simon) was the cousin of Jesus, and Mary Clopas was therefore the sister-in-law of Mary the mother of Jesus. Again note the loose use of relationships. Mary Clopas is referred to as Mary’s “sister” in Jn 19:25 when she is actually her sister-in-law.

In the book of Jude he says “Jude, a slave of Jesus Christ and brother of James” (Jude 1:1) So Jude (or Judas) is probably the brother of James the son of Clopas.

Then also Luke when listing the apostles says James, son of Alpheus. But the Aramaic Alpheus can be rendered in Greek as either Alpheus or Clopas. So again James, the “brother” of the Lord is probably the son of Clopas.

amen! And even the 12 sons of Jacob had different mothers!

 

[theefaith]

Did Jesus come to "reform" the ways of the Jews who were supposed to be following the laws God gave to Moses?

"Then came to Jesus scribes and Pharisees, which were of Jerusalem, saying,
Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread.
But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?" Matt 15:1-3

Now not all traditions are evil. But if a tradition causes a person to transgress the commandment of God, which way should he go?

Did Jesus come to "reform" the ways of the Jews who were supposed to be following the laws God gave to Moses?

"Then came to Jesus scribes and Pharisees, which were of Jerusalem, saying,
Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread.
But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?" Matt 15:1-3

Now not all traditions are evil. But if a tradition causes a person to transgress the commandment of God, which way should he go?

Did Jesus come to "reform" the ways of the Jews who were supposed to be following the laws God gave to Moses?

"Then came to Jesus scribes and Pharisees, which were of Jerusalem, saying,
Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread.
But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?" Matt 15:1-3

Now not all traditions are evil. But if a tradition causes a person to transgress the commandment of God, which way should he go?

Did Jesus come to "reform" the ways of the Jews who were supposed to be following the laws God gave to Moses?

"Then came to Jesus scribes and Pharisees, which were of Jerusalem, saying,
Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread.
But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?" Matt 15:1-3

Now not all traditions are evil. But if a tradition causes a person to transgress the commandment of God, which way should he go?

the so called reformers who reformed nothing, they abandoned Christ and His church and started their own with no authority to do so are not Jesus, they are not apostles either eph 2:20 the only reformation in the Bible is Christ making the the covenant! Heb 9:10

 

[amadeus]

the so called reformers who reformed nothing, they abandoned Christ and His church and started their own with no authority to do so are not Jesus, they are not apostles either eph 2:20 the only reformation in the Bible is Christ making the the covenant! Heb 9:10

Why did you not answer not even one of my questions? Are we discussing or making declarations? Declarations are probably better suited to a blog!

 

[Spurgeon's Girl]

where are reformers or reformation in the Bible?

The Apostle Paul taught reformed theology throughout the New Testament.

 

[Spurgeon's Girl]

the so called reformers who reformed nothing, they abandoned Christ and His church and started their own with no authority to do so are not Jesus, they are not apostles either eph 2:20 the only reformation in the Bible is Christ making the the covenant! Heb 9:10

This is a complete version of the Catholic church defending what cannot be defended. The Catholic church brought this upon themselves by practicing unbiblical views.

Pope Leo X was a greedy man who used fear and intimidation to to obtain from the poor what little they had. Monstrous acts. If you think it's fine to defend this, then I would ask you why? The Bible knows nothing of this. Nor does it know anything about buying one's salvation.

 

[Spurgeon's Girl]

Is lot Abraham’s brother?

You can't deal with the scripture so you divert. This is what Catholics do. Like their leadership, if they can't find the answer they want in the scriptures, they make things up. The Bible said Jesus had brothers. Nothing else matters.

 

[Spurgeon's Girl]

Mary was preserved from sin by the merits of Jesus so He is still Her savior!

The Bible says you are mistaken Mary was a sinner. Unless, of course, you want to say that the Apostle Paul was preaching lies.

 

[Spurgeon's Girl]

I sent it in a pm why not reply do you not like pm’s I am respectful and only reply with scripture

I rarely respond to pm's. I am not ashamed to post my answers on the open forums. I belong to other forums and I know that pm's can be used to gossip about other posters, etc. I'm not accusing you of this because I don't think that you would engage in that.

 

[Renniks]

preserved from original sin and all sin by the special privilege of God in virtue of the merits of Jesus Christ! Gen 3:15 enmity, none of satans works are in Her!

Song of Solomon 4:7
Thou art all fair, my love; there is no spot in thee.

lk 1:49

The genesis verse does not claim Mary is sinless. And what does song of Solomon have to do with Mary?

All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. You would put Mary on the same level as Yawhah. That's blasphemy.

 

[Taken]

Perpetual virginity of Mary!
OP ^

Gen 1:
[22] ...God ... saying, Be fruitful, and multiply...

Matt 1:
[18] ...Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together...
[24] ...Joseph...his wife:
[25] ...knew her not till...

Men:
Heck no, Mary and Joseph did not multiply!
Joseph knew not his wife ever!

Mark 6:
[3] ...the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joses, and of Juda, and Simon? and are not his sisters here with us?

Men:
The virgin (disobeyed God to multiply),
Those are Faithful Joseph's children with His unnamed, unidentified first wife.

Men:
It's just dumb to Rely on Scripture only!

UGH

 

[Mungo]

When you can find some biblical proof that James and John were not the brothers of Jesus, get back to me.

Where does the Bible say that John was a brother of Jesus?

 

[Mungo]

The Apostle Paul taught reformed theology throughout the New Testament.

That's hilarious!

 

[Mungo]

You can't deal with the scripture so you divert. This is what Catholics do. Like their leadership, if they can't find the answer they want in the scriptures, they make things up. The Bible said Jesus had brothers. Nothing else matters.

I gave you a long post (#312) showing that they were not Mary's children. You haven't replied.

 

[Mungo]

The Bible says you are mistaken Mary was a sinner.

What sin does the Bible say that Mary committed?

 

[Mungo]

You can't deal with the scripture so you divert. This is what Catholics do. Like their leadership, if they can't find the answer they want in the scriptures, they make things up.

I think you are the one making things up.

 

[theefaith]

Why did you not answer not even one of my questions? Are we discussing or making declarations? Declarations are probably better suited to a blog!

I answered the so called reformers are not God! Not apostles! Christ reformed Israel and made a new covenant church that is eternal! Lk 1:32-33