Perpetual virginity of Mary!

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amadeus

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Hi Amadeus,

It would be nice if all Christians would agree on which traditions from the Jesus and the Apostles we should keep. But we can not agree and therein lies a big part of the problem. You ask "which way should we go?". My Answer: I don't know of any tradition that effects our salvation so I am not really sure it matters if we hold fast to traditions or not. Unless you know of a tradition that if one does not hold to it they will potentially loose their salvation?

Mary
Yes, it really would we nice if all who believe in God and His Son would or could come together in worship and prayer and fellowship, but of course the differences lie not only in traditions held. Perhaps a greater conflict is found in different interpretations of the scriptures themselves. I won't go into mine because mostly you have heard them before and we failed to resolve our differences. I may have changed some since we bumped heads before... but LOL not much. May God richly bless you as you seek to please and obey Him.

Give God the glory!
 
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Renniks

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The other poster may have engaged in wrong doing, but it doesn't matter. Jesus said this: In Matthew 5:38–39, Jesus says, “You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’ But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also.”

We all get frustrated and lose our tempers, but there are unbelievers who lurk on forums. What kind of example are we setting for them?
Well, I'm not convinced that calling the doctrine of Mary being sinless blasphemy was wrong. I'm not real comfortable being the evil person in this scenario, lol.
 

Taken

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[QUOTE="theefaith, post: 830685, member: 9099]

The Bible never says anyone is a biological child of Mary accept for Jesus Christ! [/QUOTE]


Well that is false.
The term for the science of Biology was not used until nearly 2,000 years after Jesus' birth.

If you actually knew what biological meant, it does not line up with Scripture.

No need to consider your conclusion Based on a False premise, as is your first point.

Glory to God,
Taken
 

Mungo

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If you want me to reply, then show the biblical (not speculative Catholic thought) verses that prove otherwise. I did read it. Right off the bat, you posted a sentence that has zero to do with the Bible says.

The rest of your post, is just more of the same. The Bible teaches that Jesus had brothers. Anything you say to the contrary that, is not biblical and therefore rank speculation.

I gave you 8 points to consider.
You simply have no answer to them.
 

Mungo

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Mary was never told that she is/was without sin. Moreover, the Bible says this:

Romans 3:21-24
21 But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— 22 the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,

Another post you cannot answer.
 

Mungo

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You haven't even come close to showing that. I provide exegetically sound scripture.

That's an even more hilarious claim.
(comment removed)

Either way I shall just ignore you in future.
(comment removed)
 
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Eternally Grateful

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And you cannot prove that Mary did have other children.
Then According to you we are at a stalemate

you can prove your point and I can’t prove mine

So this should not even be a doctrine of issue, Yet Catholics make it one, and then get mad when people disagree with them and call us haters,
 

Eternally Grateful

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That's an even more hilarious claim.
You are either very stupid or just obfuscating because you have no answers.

Either way I shall just ignore you in future. You have nothing to offer this discussion.
This post has been reported calling someone stupid, you prety much just showed what I said in my last post
 

Candidus

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Hi Candidus,

I have heard that term "Biblical Christianity" thrown around on this forum a whole lot but no one that preaches it agrees with what "it" is. Can you tell me what Christianity would look like today if we were all 'Biblical Christians'?

(Would there be no church buildings? No church hierarchy? If you believe baptism saves it's ok if you believe it doesn't save that's ok? Abortion and Gay marriage are acceptable? etc. etc.)

Curious Mary
May I ask for something on the flip-side?

Would a Biblical Church be a plush building of status and wealth, while the majority of those that give to support this luxury, live in poverty? Would it have a Fascist/Autocratic hierarchy? Would a Biblical Church gloss over homosexuality and pedophilia in their own ranks and sanction its continuance? Would a Biblical Church invent its own unique and unbiblical positions such as Popes and nuns? Sell indulgences? Persecute, imprison, torture and murder anyone who does not believe as their Fascist Leader orders?

What would a Biblical Christianity look like? It is not hard to identify what it wouldn't look like.
 

theefaith

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I believe the virgin birth because I read my Bible.

Out of courtesy and respect I have posted the verses you suggested. But I did more, because I have said before every verse has a context.

Luke 2:40-46
English Standard Version

40 And the child grew and became strong, filled with wisdom. And the favor of God was upon him.

41 Now his parents went to Jerusalem every year at the Feast of the Passover. 42 And when he was twelve years old, they went up according to custom. 43 And when the feast was ended, as they were returning, the boy Jesus stayed behind in Jerusalem. His parents did not know it, 44 but supposing him to be in the group they went a day's journey, but then they began to search for him among their relatives and acquaintances, 45 and when they did not find him, they returned to Jerusalem, searching for him. 46 After three days they found him in the temple, sitting among the teachers, listening to them and asking them questions.



John 1:40-45
English Standard Version

40 One of the two who heard John speak and followed Jesus was Andrew, Simon Peter's brother. 41 He first found his own brother Simon and said to him, “We have found the Messiah” (which means Christ). 42 He brought him to Jesus. Jesus looked at him and said, “You are Simon the son of John. You shall be called Cephas” (which means Peter).

43 The next day Jesus decided to go to Galilee. He found Philip and said to him, “Follow me.” 44 Now Philip was from Bethsaida, the city of Andrew and Peter. 45 Philip found Nathanael and said to him, “We have found him of whom Moses in the Law and also the prophets wrote, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.”


Has it occurred to you that Jesus was still a young boy when others named Joseph as his father? I guess not. Jesus certainly had not been crucified, so no one except for his earthly parents would know about his virgin birth.

Why can you not do this for yourself? One doesn't need to be a biblical scholar to see this. I believe you are earnest and completely capable of exegeting scripture properly. Follow the Bible. It will only benefit you.

the Bible does not say that the Bible must be read in context? All scripture is inspired each word is the word of God!

the scripture is inspired by the HS
The answer is that there is more than one kind of father, Joseph is the legal father of Jesus! So the virgin birth is true!

and there are more than one kind of sister too! Jn 19:25 says Mary the mother of Jesus has a sister named Mary, is it her biological sister, two sisters with same name? No it is the wife of cleophas it says sister but is sister in law!

Lot is Abraham’s nephew but the Bible says they are brothers, any close relative in Hebrew culture can be called brother!
Gen 13:8

Jose’s, Simon Salome are children of another Mary!

Mk 15:40 There were also women looking on afar off: among whom was Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James the less and of Joses, and Salome; Matt 10:2 says James is the son of zebedee, and the other James is the son Alpheus
So Nowhere in scripture is anyone a biological child of Mary or anywhere in scripture that Mary ever had sex! Lk 1:34 say I no not man! She knows a man She is betrothed to Joseph! Refers to sex! Mary is a perpetual Virgin and even luther and calvin defended Her perpetual Virgin!!!
 

Mungo

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Then According to you we are at a stalemate

you can prove your point and I can’t prove mine

So this should not even be a doctrine of issue, Yet Catholics make it one, and then get mad when people disagree with them and call us haters,

I don't see the logic. Just because two people cannot agree on an issue doesn't make it non-doctrinal.
People disagree on whether Jesus was/is God but it is very much doctrinal.
And I don't agree that Catholics call people who disagree with them haters.
 

Eternally Grateful

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I don't see the logic. Just because two people cannot agree on an issue doesn't make it non-doctrinal.
People disagree on whether Jesus was/is God but it is very much doctrinal.
And I don't agree that Catholics call people who disagree with them haters.
Lol you must not read much of your brother and sisters post. I have been called haters, antcatholic, etc over this topic many times.
It’s a non issue or an issue with which we should not attack the other on because it can. It be proven that was
My point
 

theefaith

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Again you did not answer my questions. If you don't know the answers, why continue to pursue this? God does not expect any of us to know all of the answers. Perhaps you should stop insisting that you are standing on anything but your own faith. How could I argue with that? God does not save only those who are able to pass sort of a theological examination. He, I believe, is more concerned with what is in a person's heart.

sorry I don’t really understand your questions please ask one question and be specific
 

theefaith

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[QUOTE="theefaith, post: 830685, member: 9099]

The Bible never says anyone is a biological child of Mary accept for Jesus Christ!


Well that is false.
The term for the science of Biology was not used until nearly 2,000 years after Jesus' birth.

If you actually knew what biological meant, it does not line up with Scripture.

No need to consider your conclusion Based on a False premise, as is your first point.

Glory to God,
Taken[/QUOTE]

you can call it what you want, no one is a physical child of Mary accept Jesus! Many are Her spiritual children!
Mother of the living in Christ and the new creation!

Genesis 3:20
And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living.

John 19:26-27
When Jesus therefore saw his mother, and the disciple standing by, whom he loved, he saith unto his mother, Woman, behold thy son! Then saith he to the disciple, Behold thy mother! And from that hour that disciple took her unto his own home.

Jesus is not just asking John to care for His mother, if so He would have said so.

Jesus is in the very least making Mary John’s spiritual mother! And if the apostle John needs a spiritual mother so do we!
What is the family of God without a mother? The mother is the heart of the family! Jesus said I will not leave you orphans! Jn 14:18 He proved Mary the mother of one disciple then He does so for all disciples!

As eve was the mother of all the living in the first creation, gen 3:20 so Mary is the mother of all those who live in Christ and the new creation!

Rev 12:17
 

theefaith

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Martin Luther

It is an article of faith that Mary is Mother of the Lord and still a virgin. … Christ, we believe, came forth from a womb left perfectly intact. (Weimer’s The Works of Luther, English translation by Pelikan, Concordia, St. Louis, v. 11, pp. 319-320; v. 6. p. 510.)

John Calvin

(On the Heretic Helvidius) Helvidius displayed excessive ignorance in concluding that Mary must have had many sons, because Christ’s “brothers” are sometimes mentioned. (Harmony of Matthew, Mark and Luke, sec. 39 [Geneva, 1562], vol. 2 / From Calvin’s Commentaries, translated by William Pringle, Grand Rapids, Michigan: Eerdmans, 1949, p.215; on Matthew 13:55)

[On Matt 1:25:] The inference he [Helvidius] drew from it was, that Mary remained a virgin no longer than till her first birth, and that afterwards she had other children by her husband . . . No just and well-grounded inference can be drawn from these words . . . as to what took place after the birth of Christ. He is called “first-born”; but it is for the sole purpose of informing us that he was born of a virgin . . . What took place afterwards the historian does not inform us . . . No man will obstinately keep up the argument, except from an extreme fondness for disputation. (Pringle, ibid., vol. I, p. 107)

Under the word “brethren” the Hebrews include all cousins and other relations, whatever may be the degree of affinity. (Pringle, ibid., vol. I, p. 283 / Commentary on John, [7:3])

John Wesley

‘I believe that He [Jesus] was made man, joining the human nature with the divine in one person; being conceived by the singular operation of the Holy Ghost, and born of the blessed Virgin Mary, who, as well after as before she brought Him forth, continued a pure and unspotted virgin’ (‘Letter to a Roman Catholic’, The Works of Rev. John Wesley, vol 10, p. 81).


St Augustine, Sermons 186.1 (early 5th century):

“It was not the visible sun, but its invisible Creator who consecrated this day for us, when the Virgin Mother, fertile of womb and integral in her virginity, brought him forth, made visible for us, by whom, when he was invisible, she too was created. A Virgin conceiving, a Virgin bearing, a Virgin pregnant, a Virgin bringing forth, a Virgin perpetual. Why do you wonder at this, O man?”
St Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica, III.28.3 (13th century):

"Without any hesitation we must abhor the error of Helvidius, who dared to assert that Christ's Mother, after His Birth, was carnally known by Joseph, and bore other children.
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For, in the first place, this is derogatory to Christ's perfection: for as He is in His Godhead the Only-Begotten of the Father, being thus His Son in every respect perfect, so it was becoming that He should be the Only-begotten son of His Mother, as being her perfect offspring.

“Secondly, this error is an insult to the Holy Ghost, whose "shrine" was the virginal womb, wherein He had formed the flesh of Christ: wherefore it was unbecoming that it should be desecrated by intercourse with man.

“Thirdly, this is derogatory to the dignity and holiness of God's Mother: for thus she would seem to be most ungrateful, were she not content with such a Son; and were she, of her own accord, by carnal intercourse to forfeit that virginity which had been miraculously preserved in her.

“Fourthly, it would be tantamount to an imputation of extreme presumption in Joseph, to assume that he attempted to violate her whom by the angel's revelation he knew to have conceived by the Holy Ghost.

“We must therefore simply assert that the Mother of God, as she was a virgin in conceiving Him and a virgin in giving Him birth, did she remain a virgin ever afterwards."
 

amadeus

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sorry I don’t really understand your questions please ask one question and be specific
As you wish:
1) Now not all traditions are evil. But if a tradition causes a person to transgress the commandment of God, which way should he go
?
 

amadeus

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sorry I don’t really understand your questions please ask one question and be specific
(2 Are the apostles the only ones sent by God to men? What of the other four ministers listed in Eph 4:11 as being given by God? Were they not sent? What of the angels, the messengers, both heavenly and earthly sent by God? Were not messengers sent?
 
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