Please explain this.
- Thread starter H. Richard
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I see your point, but can't seem to get around the scripture in question...
It appears to me to be saying that it is a trustworthy saying and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners...of whom "I" am chief.
Perhaps if you see it in light of an AA situation.
A person in AA stands forward and says, "I am an alcoholic" though he has been clean and sober for forty years. What he means is that he knows that alcohol is his primary weakness.
I can stand forward and say, "I am the chief of sinners" even if I haven't sinned for forty years. Sin is my primary weakness. 1 Corinthians 10:12 tells me this.
Because in my flesh, I am still that same old person. It is in the Spirit that I am redeemed.
My behaviour has changed over the past forty years because I have mortified the flesh and have walked according to the Spirit, submitting to Jesus as Lord rather than having my own way in things. But I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) dwelleth no good thing. Romans 7:18.
(in all reality, I have only been a Christian for about 33 years; and have not been sinlessly perfect for all of that time).
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I was drunk from age 14 to age 26. The first time I drank I got drunk. I did not stop drinking until I obtained medical help. I haven't been sober for 40 years, but for over 30.
"And such were some of you . . ."
I'm not an alcoholic. I'm a child of God.
We need to take what he says along with all the rest.
What does this mean exactly?
You are that same old person? Or your flesh is that same old person?
How are we to think of ourselves? And how does the message we tell ourselves affect us?
"I'm a sinner" so I sin . . . or . . . "I'm a righteous and holy child of God, so I do righteousness."
?
Much love!
In this way is what I think Paul meant, but only for the purpose of what he was saying there.
Not as a general rule of how we define ourselves.
Much love!
The parts that are in question do not affect doctrine.
I am not a sinner.
I am a child of God that sins.
I am a new creation...the old has died and passed away.
You cannot put new wine in old skins (they burst).
There's a big difference here.
I am righteous in Christ...the Holy Spirit dwelling within me motivates me unto righteousness. His Spirit is one with my spirit...1 Corinthians 6:17. This is the new man.
But that which is born of the flesh is flesh; and since my flesh has not died (though a case can be made for dying to self, this is not what I am talking about), the old man is something that I need to put off every day.
I am the chief of sinners in my old nature...but because I am sanctified in Christ, my new nature is in control...the righteous me.
If I blow it and do something ungodly, the Lord still declares me righteous because of my faith...Romans 4:5...but that blowing it is because in my flesh I am the chief of sinners.
And yes, in knowing my true identity, that I am righteous in Christ, I can begin to have the victory over the old man.
The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? (Jeremiah 17:9)...even though I am given a new heart that is honest and good (Ezekiel 36:25-27, Luke 8:15), a part of my new heart's understanding is that I am not to trust in my heart (Proverbs 28:26). I am to trust in the Holy Spirit who has come to dwell within me through faith in Jesus Christ.
But that which is born of the flesh is flesh; and since my flesh has not died (though a case can be made for dying to self, this is not what I am talking about), the old man is something that I need to put off every day.
I am the chief of sinners in my old nature...but because I am sanctified in Christ, my new nature is in control...the righteous me.
If I blow it and do something ungodly, the Lord still declares me righteous because of my faith...Romans 4:5...but that blowing it is because in my flesh I am the chief of sinners.
And yes, in knowing my true identity, that I am righteous in Christ, I can begin to have the victory over the old man.
The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? (Jeremiah 17:9)...even though I am given a new heart that is honest and good (Ezekiel 36:25-27, Luke 8:15), a part of my new heart's understanding is that I am not to trust in my heart (Proverbs 28:26). I am to trust in the Holy Spirit who has come to dwell within me through faith in Jesus Christ.
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Hi JBF,
I feel like we're talking about the same things but with different words.
The deceitful heart is of course that heart of the flesh, not the new heart of the new creation (the inner man).
What I've learned is that there is no condition of the flesh that can hold me when God gives me liberty.
Much love!
Yes, I agree. With years and years of comparing translations and manuscripts, I'm convinced God has in fact preserved His Word.
Much love!
I find it miraculous that with all the rewriting of the original manuscripts, which don't even exist anymore,,,that we were able to keep the teachings of Jesus and of the Apostles...this comes through anyway, even with the changes.
Except for some small verses, and maybe even a whole story (if you know it)m we can still depend on the N.T. to know what God would want for us and how to be near to Him.
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
Are you sure you're even saved???????????????I am a sinner who doesn't sin (for the most part...)
You sure are a busy little bee judging everyone else's soul.
Is §God on vacation and he left YOU in charge?
I really have nothing further to discuss with you.
There is always a spiritual conflict in the true believer. Romans 8 and Ephesians 6 make this clear.
You are not your body, Mark. What is essentially you will survive the death of your body.
Yes, our mortal bodies are just temporary containers.
Resurrection bodies are changed ones.
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