Please explain this.

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Grailhunter

Well-Known Member
Jun 19, 2019
11,082
5,276
113
66
FARMINGTON
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
No owner's manual...but the layout of their doctrine is quite simple:

T)otal depravity
U)nconditional Election
L)imited Atonement
I)rresistible Grace
P)erseverance of the Saints.

Ya I know all about that....not with standing...my pleasure to know you....
 
  • Like
Reactions: bbyrd009

GodsGrace

Well-Known Member
Aug 29, 2017
10,727
5,716
113
Tuscany
Faith
Christian
Country
Italy
It means that you don't trust in your works to save you; and that you place your trust wholly in Him and what He did on the Cross, to save you.
When did I ever say works save a person?
Ephesians 2:8-9 says the same in any version of the bible.
John 3:16 says the same in any bible.


There is nothing wrong with doing good deeds. Keep doing them. Just do them realizing that you aren't keeping yourself saved in the doing of them.

The only thing that will keep you saved is continued genuine faith, after an initial faith that is genuine.
I agree that faith keeps us saved.
What does faith make us to?
Faith without works is a DEAD faith, of no use to anybody.
If we do not do good deeds, there is a very good chance we're not even in close communion with God.

However, I certainly do not claim to know anybody's spiritual state...
as you also do not know.

I know that Jesus said this:
Luke 19:12-27
Luke 19:26 Everyone who has will be given more....If one does not have,,,even that will be taken away.

Jesus was speaking about expanding His Kingdom on earth. He wasn't speaking about putting money in the bank to make interest.
The interest He wants to make is spiritual. When we do good deeds we help to expand His kingdom. Jesus said we will follow His commandments IF we are His friends,,,the negative is also true...if we do not follow His commandments, we are not His friends.

I don't know anyone on this forum that does not love Jesus.
So it becomes USELESS to state that we follow Him because we love Him.
This is a give.
HOWEVER,
Jesus did state that we are to be disciples of His.
Disciples learn from their leader. We learn from Jesus.

So what is there to learn?
To change our behavior.
To love our fellow man and whatever that entails.
To love ourselves so we could also love others.

You consider these works?
I consider it a privilege.

It is not that doing good works are a hindrance to our faith. You are slamming that opinion on me as a straw man argument. I do not hold it to be the case; so stop using it as an argument as though I did.
Didn't you tell me that I must be lost because I'm trusting in my good works?
How do you know what I'm trusting in except what I tell you?


I believe that the motivation for your good works is what matters. If you do them to obtain or otherwise maintain your salvation, then you are no longer saved by grace. Because grace and works are mutually exclusive when it comes to salvation (and yes the latter part of the verse (Romans 11:5-6) does matter in the kjv; as it helps to make the case).
Want something from King James (New):

“For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law. And those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.”

‭‭Galatians‬ ‭5:17-25‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

We are told not to live as those do stated above.
If we DO NOT live like that,,,is it a work?
Is it obedience?
Are you willing to say we have to obey God?
Or is even that too much for you.


If you do them because you are thankful over the fact that He has saved you, then you are coming from the perspective of not attempting to earn acceptance before God. Thus you are not saying to God, "you owe me salvation because I did such and such and such". God will not owe any thing to any man...see Romans 4:4.
Romans 4:4
We are NO LONGER under the law JBF.
Can you get beyond this?
Jesus didn't tell us we're to follow THE LAW (of Moses).
He left us with two commandments.
They require action...faith required action.
A body without the spirit is dead.
Faith without action is dead.

Can you agree that we're supposed to follow Jesus' two great commandments?



It is only obvious from the context of what is written, that charger means gigantic plate. I can imagine someone putting the head of John the Baptist on the hood of a car; but you are not going to get that impression from reading the story in the NT. The impression that you will get is the intended meaning of the author, however; if you will simply think of what is being said by the "archaic language" that is presented. You can either get a dictionary or else you can compare it to a more modern translation. But I don't suggest relying on the more modern translations for personal reading; because you will only be asking for spiritual malnourishment.
The word of God is alive and active...
In any version.
We should all read the version we're comfortable with.
Every bible makes the same important points needed to live for God.

Jesus exhorts us to good deeds. And Paul agrees. The bible is written to saved persons.

We should not discourage persons from obeying Jesus.
Luke 6:35
John 5:28-29
Romans 2:5-11
1 Timothy 6:17-19
 
  • Like
Reactions: Grailhunter

justbyfaith

Well-Known Member
Jun 28, 2018
21,740
4,114
113
51
San Pedro
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
When did I ever say works save a person?

So, you do not believe that our salvation is maintained by works?

If our salvation is maintained by works, then our works save us (keep us saved).

I agree that faith keeps us saved.
What does faith make us to?
Faith without works is a DEAD faith, of no use to anybody.
If we do not do good deeds, there is a very good chance we're not even in close communion with God.

Nevertheless, if you are going to look at doctrinally correct theology, the works that accompany a living faith do not save or keep us saved. They are simply the evidence that we have a living and saving faith.

I don't know anyone on this forum that does not love Jesus.

If that is the case, then everyone on these forums does follow Jesus.

So it becomes USELESS to state that we follow Him because we love Him.

Actually no...because it is clear that if we do not love Him, we will not follow Him. Therefore, not following is the evidence that we do not love Him, and following Him is the evidence that we do love Him.

And the root of this behaviour is important. Romans 5:5 says that the love of the Lord is shed abroad in our heart through the Holy Ghost. And Galatians 3:14 says that we receive the same Spirit through faith in Jesus Christ and His shed blood in sacrifice for our sins. So then, we love Him because of faith, and we follow Him because we love Him. And therefore, faith is at the root of obedience for anyone who truly follows Jesus for the right reasons.

So what is there to learn?
To change our behavior.
To love our fellow man and whatever that entails.
To love ourselves so we could also love others.

All of these things, if we are mustering them up in the power of the flesh, are not rooted in salvation.

But if we love because we believe in Jesus and therefore He has shed abroad His love in our heart, then this salvation (the love of God present in my heart) is the root of my obedience.

You consider these works?
I consider it a privilege.

So do I. And if a privilege, it is not an obligation.

Didn't you tell me that I must be lost because I'm trusting in my good works?
How do you know what I'm trusting in except what I tell you?

It seems to me that what you have told me is that you believe that you maintain your salvation by what you do. And to me, this means that you are trusting in your works to keep you saved (and therefore to save you).

quotes further down are also from @GodsGrace

We are told not to live as those do stated above.
If we DO NOT live like that,,,is it a work?
Is it obedience?

It is living by the grace of God (if we do not live according to the works of the flesh).

Are you willing to say we have to obey God?
Or is even that too much for you.

It is not that we have to obey God. It is that we get to. You said yourself that it is a privilege. I would say that therefore it is not an obligation.

Can you agree that we're supposed to follow Jesus' two great commandments?

Of course, if we have faith in Jesus, the result is that He sheds abroad His love in our hearts through the Holy Ghost (Galatians 3:14, Romans 5:5). Would not this be the fulfilling of the two commandments? Therefore if I do not love the way that God has commanded me to, it is the evidence that I am not saved by grace through faith.

We should not discourage persons from obeying Jesus.

And I am certainly not doing this. If you are obeying Him from the right motives, what I am teaching you will not discourage you from following Jesus. If you are obeying from the wrong motivations, it might.

Our motivation to obey Jesus needs to be that we love Him because He first loved us (1 John 4:19); because He shed abroad His love in our hearts (Romans 5:5); and because we are forgiven much and therefore love much (Luke 7:36-50).
 
Last edited:

bbyrd009

Groper
Nov 30, 2016
33,943
12,081
113
Ute City, COLO
www.facebook.com
Faith
Christian
Country
United States Minor Outlying Islands
I'm not sure if that is the actual desire of all men (to be immortal). You really made me think hard about this the other day. And I had to admit that it wasn't to live forever that was in my mind as "the prize." To be always with God was more the desire that I found in myself. To not ever be apart from Him was the desire I found when I thought hard about it.
yeah this is one of the things we say, but really are not very true wadr. The top thing I'd rather not get into, I'm sure we define immortal differently right now, etc. so I don't know if you're now saying that you do not expect to go up to heaven after you have died or what, and your admission yeah who knows might be more of a profession, might be subjective, might just be something handy to say right there, who knows. I'm skeptible there, at least.

i actually came back to this thread to say i prolly coulda put the roads thing better, "all roads lead to Rome" is more like what I meant.

So, this wasnt intentional ok, but see you had a desire to pave a road but you also had a desire to be with God always, too, right. And what we can say for sure is that the road got paved, yeh?
 

bbyrd009

Groper
Nov 30, 2016
33,943
12,081
113
Ute City, COLO
www.facebook.com
Faith
Christian
Country
United States Minor Outlying Islands
Have you ever used the YLT?
Youngs LITERAL translation.

It makes one wonder how the bible was able to be translated at all.
This is why I like to go with a general view and not hang on to every word, or even sentence. And from what are we working? Original manuscripts?
I don't thiiiiiink so.
ah well, faithful copies, enough so that even the smallest deviations stand out i guess. Working up, you dont have to hang on every word of course, but you will never get the full sense of what the authors meant to impart that way, and my point was that you quite often get scribed to a different point altogether even, Easter would not even be an example of this, since that is just lying basically...more like you are going to read "belief" in a bunch of places that should read "have faith," and other examples. The general view is overwhelmingly, as a rule, a shadow of what was meant to be imparted imo, at best. I have noted the Youngs literal translation, because it's there whenever I go into my parallel function, yeh, and while it is too cumbersome to quote usually, it seems to render a better sense usually at least in my opinion
 
  • Like
Reactions: GodsGrace

bbyrd009

Groper
Nov 30, 2016
33,943
12,081
113
Ute City, COLO
www.facebook.com
Faith
Christian
Country
United States Minor Outlying Islands
It's about the readability of the King James. She brought his head on a charger. Talk about rabbit trails!

:D

Eternal, immortal, the bottom line is God has caused me to know He is real, and I'm His child, and I know Him. And next to that, it all will be fine.

Much love!
ha ha yeah. careful what you say you know tho k. I mean say that if you want, but i don't know him, or would not say I did anyway. I say this because "know God, or rather know of God…"
 

marks

Well-Known Member
Oct 10, 2018
33,156
21,420
113
SoCal USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I mean say that if you want, but i don't know him, or would not say I did anyway.
all that be what it may, just the same, I believe that I do know Him, my Creator. Either it's true, or I'm a deluded fool who suffers from hallucinations.

Much love!
 

bbyrd009

Groper
Nov 30, 2016
33,943
12,081
113
Ute City, COLO
www.facebook.com
Faith
Christian
Country
United States Minor Outlying Islands
all that be what it may, just the same, I believe that I do know Him, my Creator. Either it's true, or I'm a deluded fool who suffers from hallucinations.

Much love!
ah well fwiw we have a passage or two for that i guess...but lemme ask you first, what would it take to change this belief of yours? I'm just looking for some whatever off the cuff statement that expresses your feelings there ok, no wrong answers iow
"I would have to hear clear evidence that I in fact may not know God as I thought" or whatever.




(going with facts and Cap i's bc quote)
 

marks

Well-Known Member
Oct 10, 2018
33,156
21,420
113
SoCal USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
ah well fwiw we have a passage or two for that i guess...but lemme ask you first, what would it take to change this belief of yours? I'm just looking for some whatever off the cuff statement that expresses your feelings there ok, no wrong answers iow
"I would have to hear clear evidence that I in fact may not know God as I thought" or whatever.




(going with facts and Cap i's bc quote)

That's a real good question. Perhaps dying and finding He's not there?
 

bbyrd009

Groper
Nov 30, 2016
33,943
12,081
113
Ute City, COLO
www.facebook.com
Faith
Christian
Country
United States Minor Outlying Islands
No owner's manual...but the layout of their doctrine is quite simple:

T)otal depravity
Where are you?
For God so loved the world...

etc
U)nconditional Election
work (oops, huh?) to make your calling and election sure
go, and do likewise
even i guess
L)imited Atonement
etc, this one brought to you by the same two eyed guy, right,
tryna go up to heaven and become an immortal tomorrow,
diggin a pit for everone else today lol
Where are you, for God so loved the world and go and do likewise
all over agin imo
I)rresistible Grace
who desires that all men come
tares
seven worse spirits
twice the sons of hell you are
they read Paul to their destruction

P)erseverance of the Saints.
ah yes, "we," that particular yet still amorphous "we" that we use? mostly when "we" want to bolster an opinion, or infer like backing, the backing of other believers quite often Of Reputation or Considered Merit? Right? Who defines We?
 

bbyrd009

Groper
Nov 30, 2016
33,943
12,081
113
Ute City, COLO
www.facebook.com
Faith
Christian
Country
United States Minor Outlying Islands
That's a real good question. Perhaps dying and finding He's not there?
ah well thief in the night has many unrealized implications imo, lama sabbachthani too i guess maybe in that context, but as those are all um terminal let's say, tomorrow type stuff, is there anything that might make you reconsider today, without having to wait maybe. If not then no, just covering bases
 

GodsGrace

Well-Known Member
Aug 29, 2017
10,727
5,716
113
Tuscany
Faith
Christian
Country
Italy
POTS is Perseverance of the Saints.



1Jo 2:17, And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.

to be compared to:

1Jo 3:6, Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
Agreed.
He that DOETH the will of the Father Abideth forever.

I hope you realize that this means that IF YOU DO THE WILL of the Father....
THEN you abide forever.

And re 1 John 3:6 we know it means that if we abide in Him we will not live a life of sin.

And, if my "theory" is based in scripture, then I didn't make it up.
Oh JBF,,,you're a smart guy.
You know anything can be proven by scripture.
Have you ever wondered why?



Here, doing the will of God is not defined as doing good works. Rather, it is defined by

Jhn 6:40, And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Yes sir.
And I trust you know what BELIEVE meant back then...
If you believed you also obeyed.
If you did not believe you did not obey.





See Matthew 7:3-5.
Oh. You think I'M confused?
Because I say we should obey God?
And DO His will?
And BELIEVE in HIM?
And ABIDE IN HIM?

That's confusion??

John 15:4
It would seem that we need to abide in Jesus so we could BEAR GOOD FRUIT.
This bearing good fruit does keep coming up.
And doing good deeds.
And BELIEVING in HIM.
And ABIDING in Him.

I don't think I'm confused.

Whether the latter phrase is included in Romans 8:1 does have a bearing on the meaning of the entire text. In one case, there is no condemnation even if you walk according to the flesh (which is denied elsewhere; but you can get the wrong impression from this text if the phrase is missing). In the other, one must walk according to the Spirit in order to be free of condemnation.
Yes. You're right, and it seems like we might agree.
NOT doing good is walking in the flesh.
I agree with you that it is stated in other places, so if the person truly wants to serve God, he will still get the correct message.
I was going to list some verses but since we agree I don't think it's necessary.

This is why I stress that the N.T. is a complete thought and cannot really be cut down into veses. But alas, this is how we learn and make theology.

If the latter meaning is true, then someone could miss out on salvation itself if they put their trust in the former meaning and presumptuously walk according to the flesh thinking that there is no condemnation for them.
Well AMEN and praise the Lord!
This is why I stress obedience and good deeds, be it in behavior or acts or omissions. Many times I've hard that one can do as he pleases and STILL BE SAVED. This would be OSAS which I understand to be different from PotS.
But, unfortunately, not everyone does. So language is all-important to me.

And the issue that I have is with the faulty manuscripts themselves: which take out specific words and phrases so that the potency of the scriptural message is lost.

If the manuscripts that lack information are correct, then the manuscripts that do not lack information were added to. Why then were not the plagues of the book of Revelation added to the people who translated them? But if the manuscripts that do not lack information are correct, then the manuscripts that lack it were taken away from. And the only evidence of that is that the translators will have their names taken out of the book of life and their part in the holy city is no longer secure.
I hesitate to say anything because you'll label me liberal again and I'm the farthest you'll see from liberal.
However, that does not mean I lack knowledge in church history or bible history.
Very little I admit...but enough to understand better.
You do know there was no printing press in the year 45 AD and onward.....
How were letters copied?
Who put them into a book?
Do you think there might have been one book with ALL the letters in it?
Imagine having to try to copy THAT!

Do you think mistakes ever happened?
We have one manuscript and bible that states we are to commit adultery because the word NOT was left out.

Think about this.
No plagues.

Now the latter thing is invisible; but we can determine by the former thing that those who used the textus receptus did not add to the word of the Lord when they translated such versions as the kjv. It only follows that those who translated the texts that lack information took away from the word of the Lord; and also that, if a person holds the translations that are lacking to be authoritative over and above the translations that include the information, that they also are taking away from the word of the Lord.
Not so. Perhaps those that have MORE information are the incorrect ones.
Perhaps someone thought to add the extra information so that the concept
would be better understood....Like Romans 8:1 ....... see.

Consider my Bible text for this reasoning:

Rev 22:18, For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
Rev 22:19, And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
I brought this up a couple of days ago and was advised it's only for the book of Revelation. Of course, it's for all of the letters of John and the others too. It was important to them that words be copied precisely...but it was also beyond their
capability to stop this.
 
Last edited:

marks

Well-Known Member
Oct 10, 2018
33,156
21,420
113
SoCal USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
ah well thief in the night has many unrealized implications imo, lama sabbachthani too i guess maybe in that context, but as those are all um terminal let's say, tomorrow type stuff, is there anything that might make you reconsider today, without having to wait maybe. If not then no, just covering bases

Let's just say that I know someone Who I cannot see, and Who knows what I think in my heart, and Who is able to manipulate my environment to show me that, and to give pertinant and meaningful responses.

This Being obviously cares for my well-being, and has done much to bring wellness to my life.

So here's a question. Do you believe I exist? If you do . . . what would it take to convince you that I don't? And even if convinced, would you be right?

Much love!
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: GodsGrace

marks

Well-Known Member
Oct 10, 2018
33,156
21,420
113
SoCal USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Oh JBF,,,you're a smart guy.
You know anything can be proven by scripture.
Have you ever wondered why?

Hi GodsGrace,

I don't think that is true. Scripture only proves the certain thing that it says. People misuse Scripture routinely to bend it to their own use.

much love!
 

GodsGrace

Well-Known Member
Aug 29, 2017
10,727
5,716
113
Tuscany
Faith
Christian
Country
Italy
Hi GodsGrace,

I don't think that is true. Scripture only proves the certain thing that it says. People misuse Scripture routinely to bend it to their own use.

much love!
Hmmmm.
Interesting.
Calvinists use scripture to prove their theology.
People use scripture to show that after Justification comes Sanctification.
People use scripture to show that this is not true and they believe in OSAS.
Scripture is used to prove hell exists.
Scripture is used to prove it DOES NOT exist.
It's used to prove Jesus is God.
It's used to prove Jesus is NOT God.

Should I continue?

P.S. I'll ask my question again:
Why do YOU think this is so?
 
  • Like
Reactions: Grailhunter