Please stay away from the pope!!!

[lawrance]

It's interesting that you just make the assumption that we do have our heads in the sand. You know what they say about people who make assumptions.
I also wonder...and also get a good chuckle...out of your obvious conclusion in regards to some of the more brilliant theological minds in history...who make me seem to have a somewhat mild and warm fuzzy view on the RCC.

The point that i was trying to make is that i to was a protestant and i thought i knew what the RCC was all about but by looking into the RCC true position i found out for a fact that the Protestants are totally ignorant !! and in fact i was so ashamed of my ignorance because i found out that i was totally mislead by protestants.
I don't have a warm or fuzzy view on the RCC at all as i am not one.
But as a Christian i don't support slander as it is a work of Satan.

 

[aspen]

-- The Catholic church teaches that the Pope is God's primary representative for all Christians here on earth.
If he took the job knowing that and agrees it is fact....


.

Actually, we are all called to be Christ's representatives on Earth. Don't bother addressing my posts if you are not interested in answering my questions.

Thanks.

The point that i was trying to make is that i to was a protestant and i thought i knew what the RCC was all about but by looking into the RCC true position i found out for a fact that the Protestants are totally ignorant !! and in fact i was so ashamed of my ignorance because i found out that i was totally mislead by protestants.
I don't have a warm or fuzzy view on the RCC at all as i am not one.
But as a Christian i don't support slander as it is a work of Satan.

It is a shame that some people are still protesting Catholic doctrine 500 years after the Reformation, but people are going to believe what they want to believe. Some people cannot feel right about their own beliefs when others disagree with them. IMO, this only inhibits sanctification at the expense of doctrinal correctness, but there is no convincing people who over-identify with their doctrine.

Over-identification with doctrine is all about the ego. Relying on doctrine and the Bible as a foundation for loving others is the only way to use it correctly. Practicing our sanctification is the only way to salvation.

 

[Foreigner]

Actually, we are all called to be Christ's representatives on Earth. Don't bother addressing my posts if you are not interested in answering my questions.

Thanks.

-- Your statement does not negate the fact that the Catholic church believes the Pope is Christ's primary representative here on earth.

If you do not like what I say, feel free not to reply.

Thanks.

 

[aspen]

-- Your statement does not negate the fact that the Catholic church believes the Pope is Christ's primary representative here on earth.

If you do not like what I say, feel free not to reply.

Thanks.

You have a right to your limited opinion about the doctrine of the Papacy. I was simply requesting that you answer my question - based on your last two posts, I have to conclude that you are not interested.

therefore, have a blessed day.

 

[Foreigner]

You have a right to your limited opinion about the doctrine of the Papacy. I was simply requesting that you answer my question - based on your last two posts, I have to conclude that you are not interested.

therefore, have a blessed day.

Actually, it isn't an 'opinion.' It is active current Catholic doctrine.
I noticed that while you tried to deflect, you were wise enough not to question.

The real question is: Has a Pope made any proclamation of decree in the past that he says (or implied) was required or directed by God that eventually was proven wrong or retracted?

I didn't think you really wanted to put yourself in the position of having to defend a leader who you yourself has said in the past you can pick and choose whether to obey.


.

 

[aspen]

I noticed that while you tried to deflect, you were wise enough not to question.

One of your phrases comes to mind here....'Pot meet kettle'?

 

[Foreigner]

As I said:

The real question is: Has a Pope made any proclamation of decree in the past that he says (or implied) was required or directed by God that eventually was proven wrong or retracted?

I didn't think you really wanted to put yourself in the position of having to defend a leader who you yourself has said in the past you can pick and choose whether to obey.

 

[Rach1370]

The point that i was trying to make is that i to was a protestant and i thought i knew what the RCC was all about but by looking into the RCC true position i found out for a fact that the Protestants are totally ignorant !! and in fact i was so ashamed of my ignorance because i found out that i was totally mislead by protestants.
I don't have a warm or fuzzy view on the RCC at all as i am not one.
But as a Christian i don't support slander as it is a work of Satan.

I actually don't have a huge problem with the Catholic Church..not like some people do. I don't think the Pope is the antichrist, and I don't think just because someone is Catholic then they can't possibly be a Christian. Catholic doctrine today is far less heretical...when the reformation happened the Catholic Church was forced to look into it's own doctrine and revise it...for the benefit of everyone, I think.
I know many people who are Catholics who are genuine, lovely Christians.
I think my two biggest problems with the RCC is the doctrine of purgatory and the Pope. Purgatory, in my opinion, teaches a Jesus plus doctrine. It teaches that people can 'work off sin' in that place. Sin is either, in it's entirety, placed on us or on Jesus. If it's on us, we go to hell, if it's on Jesus, we go to heaven. Simple, and what the bible teaches.
The Pope may indeed be a very good man. Moral, caring, all of that. But as Foreigner said, when he took the position of Pope he was putting himself behind a position that is not biblical. I have no problems with Church leaders, and I most certainly think that leaders need to be shepherded and under authority as well, but that authority should not be one man who is seen to be the ultimate 'mouthpiece' of God.
But, as a general rule, I don't feel the need to spray the Pope, what he does or does not will be dealt by God. I do worry that many Catholics who are not strong in knowledge of scripture will tend to put him on a pedestal of worship that he should not be on, and I don't know that the Catholic Church discourages that as it should.
I would also say, that if you felt ashamed by your ignorance, well and good...that is entirely up to you, the Spirit and what He convicts you of. But you cannot assume that everyone else is making judgements from the same place of ignorance...in fact, it's kind of the same thing...your making judgements based on ignorance, because you simply cannot know what others already understand. If you are making a general comment of warning based on your own experiences, then perhaps it would be best to leave out phrases like "wind bags" and "simpletons".

 

[lawrance]

I actually don't have a huge problem with the Catholic Church..not like some people do. I don't think the Pope is the antichrist, and I don't think just because someone is Catholic then they can't possibly be a Christian. Catholic doctrine today is far less heretical...when the reformation happened the Catholic Church was forced to look into it's own doctrine and revise it...for the benefit of everyone, I think.
I know many people who are Catholics who are genuine, lovely Christians.
I think my two biggest problems with the RCC is the doctrine of purgatory and the Pope. Purgatory, in my opinion, teaches a Jesus plus doctrine. It teaches that people can 'work off sin' in that place. Sin is either, in it's entirety, placed on us or on Jesus. If it's on us, we go to hell, if it's on Jesus, we go to heaven. Simple, and what the bible teaches.
The Pope may indeed be a very good man. Moral, caring, all of that. But as Foreigner said, when he took the position of Pope he was putting himself behind a position that is not biblical. I have no problems with Church leaders, and I most certainly think that leaders need to be shepherded and under authority as well, but that authority should not be one man who is seen to be the ultimate 'mouthpiece' of God.
But, as a general rule, I don't feel the need to spray the Pope, what he does or does not will be dealt by God. I do worry that many Catholics who are not strong in knowledge of scripture will tend to put him on a pedestal of worship that he should not be on, and I don't know that the Catholic Church discourages that as it should.
I would also say, that if you felt ashamed by your ignorance, well and good...that is entirely up to you, the Spirit and what He convicts you of. But you cannot assume that everyone else is making judgements from the same place of ignorance...in fact, it's kind of the same thing...your making judgements based on ignorance, because you simply cannot know what others already understand. If you are making a general comment of warning based on your own experiences, then perhaps it would be best to leave out phrases like "wind bags" and "simpletons".

Rach have you ever looked into the RCC position on the Popes position or purgatory and the fact is that it is based on the word of the Bible. go have a look see.

My position with the wind bags and simpletons is just that and it is true as even some RC are just that as well, as they start flapping there wings in ignorance.

Popes do not take the position of the Pope, it is given to them whether they like it or not and i don't think in truth any of them wanted to become the Pope. like yo pick me pick me! that does not happen.

 

[Rach1370]

Rach have you ever looked into the RCC position on the Popes position or purgatory and the fact is that it is based on the word of the Bible. go have a look see.

My position with the wind bags and simpletons is just that and it is true as even some RC are just that as well, as they start flapping there wings in ignorance.

Popes do not take the position of the Pope, it is given to them whether they like it or not and i don't think in truth any of them wanted to become the Pope. like yo pick me pick me! that does not happen.

If the Popes 'position' on purgatory was the same as the biblical position, then the notion of purgatory would not exist. Full stop, then end.

It is true that many people, from any denomination, can be foolish, but unless we have intimate knowledge of what they've done, said or acted, and in what situation, if we try and judge them, then that puts us in that very situation ourselves. You can't say 'when I judged the Catholic church I was completely ignorant and therefore a windbag, so that means everyone judging the Catholic church are windbags too'. That is just your assumption that they are ignorant...they may be well informed but still have that opinion.

The Pope may be elected by others, but he definitely put himself in the running didn't he? He made choices through life that put him in the Catholic church, that put him in the priesthood. And to move high enough up in the hierarchy to become Pope, he would have had to support Catholic doctrines. So we can't really say that once made Pope he was lumped with doctrines he opposed strongly, know can we?

Look, I don't hate the Pope...I don't think him antichrist, or anything so ridiculous! I think the Catholic church has done a lot of good at times and in places. I just disagree with some of their doctrines and with the position of Pope itself, not so much the man wearing the hat at the moment. But I also disagree with a lot of doctrines coming out of a lot of 'Protestant' Churches as well. So I'm not really picking on the RCC...it's just what this thread is about. And just for your information, so you don't think I'm a 'windbag'...I generally try really hard not to make comments about something I don't have a clue on...not without doing some digging first!

 

[Jake]

We're to be cleansed here, it's called sanctification. It says be holy as your Father in heaven is holy. It doesn't tell us to wait until you die and THEN be holy as He is holy.

 

[aspen]

The only essential doctrine that Catholics must believe is the Real Presence in the Eucharist. Of course, you have to accept the authority of the Pope, as far as not teaching doctrines, which are not Catholic. That is how authority works in all churches - teaching your own private interpretation of the scriptures is never allowed in Protestantism.

That being said, I think holding beliefs that are ultra liberal or ultra conservative and expecting to have your views represented or even acknowledged, will probably lead to a great deal of disappointment.

Finally, go where God leads you. A meaningful relationship with Christ is vastly more important than the Pope (and the Pope would agree with me on this point); so if the doctrine gets in the way of the greater relationship, go where you are being lead.

 

[lawrance]

If the Popes 'position' on purgatory was the same as the biblical position, then the notion of purgatory would not exist. Full stop, then end.

It is true that many people, from any denomination, can be foolish, but unless we have intimate knowledge of what they've done, said or acted, and in what situation, if we try and judge them, then that puts us in that very situation ourselves. You can't say 'when I judged the Catholic church I was completely ignorant and therefore a windbag, so that means everyone judging the Catholic church are windbags too'. That is just your assumption that they are ignorant...they may be well informed but still have that opinion.

The Pope may be elected by others, but he definitely put himself in the running didn't he? He made choices through life that put him in the Catholic church, that put him in the priesthood. And to move high enough up in the hierarchy to become Pope, he would have had to support Catholic doctrines. So we can't really say that once made Pope he was lumped with doctrines he opposed strongly, know can we?

Look, I don't hate the Pope...I don't think him antichrist, or anything so ridiculous! I think the Catholic church has done a lot of good at times and in places. I just disagree with some of their doctrines and with the position of Pope itself, not so much the man wearing the hat at the moment. But I also disagree with a lot of doctrines coming out of a lot of 'Protestant' Churches as well. So I'm not really picking on the RCC...it's just what this thread is about. And just for your information, so you don't think I'm a 'windbag'...I generally try really hard not to make comments about something I don't have a clue on...not without doing some digging first!

I never called you anything dear Rach.
I am simply putting forward a situation that is true.
I have put forward that one can go look into why the RCC is saying what it does. and if people are not bothered to seek why well. :huh:
The Pope did not put him self in the running anymore that any other RC.

 

[Foreigner]

The only essential doctrine that Catholics must believe is the Real Presence in the Eucharist.

-- Ummmm, no.
That is completely inaccurate and you know it.

Every single deacon, nun, priest, bishop, cardinal, along with every Catholic child that has been Confirmed and the Pope himself, will point out you are completely wrong.


.

 

[aspen]

-- Ummmm, no.
That is completely inaccurate and you know it.

Every single deacon, nun, priest, bishop, cardinal, along with every Catholic child that has been Confirmed and the Pope himself, will point out you are completely wrong.


.

So that is it? You have decided that I am completely wrong so I guess it must be true?

I am talking about the key difference between Evangelical / Mainline Protestant beliefs and Catholic, from the Catholic perspective.

Trinitarian baptism is accepted / Protestant marriage is accepted / doctrine of the Trinity / Incarnation / salvation / etc

Swearing allegiance to the Pope is not part of joining the church, neither is devotion to Mary or the saints or Purgatory.


However, belief in the real presence is essential.

What am I missing?

 

[Foreigner]

The only essential doctrine that Catholics must believe is the Real Presence in the Eucharist.

-- There is other "essential doctrine" that Catholics "must believe in."
And it isn't a matter of "devotion" to something. It is a matter of being required to believe what the Catholic church tells you is true and fact.

I am not even touching on believing what Catholics are required - again: required - to believe the Pope's role in the church and the world is.

 

[aspen]

-- There is other "essential doctrine" that Catholics "must believe in."
And it isn't a matter of "devotion" to something. It is a matter of being required to believe what the Catholic church tells you is true and fact.

I am not even touching on believing what Catholics are required - again: required - to believe the Pope's role in the church and the world is.

I agree that you cannot teach against Catholic teachings and remain in a leadership role - you are at risk of excommunication or at least censure. However, you are simply wrong about essential doctrine. No one is going to be kicked out of the church for following their conscience unless it is a leader who is breaking church rules or teaching false doctrine - just like any other church.

 

[Rach1370]

I never called you anything dear Rach.

I never said you did call me something!

I am simply putting forward a situation that is true.

No, you were putting forth a situation that was true for you, and then making that situation true for others...which it not always is.

I have put forward that one can go look into why the RCC is saying what it does. and if people are not bothered to seek why well. :huh:

It's true...people will often make statements based on nothing more than fluff and opinion. But it's also true that others speak from experiance and from their own digging into the truth. My point is you cannot assume to know which is which.

The Pope did not put him self in the running anymore that any other RC.

If he joined the Catholic Church (or contiuned to contiune attending), then chose to enter the priesthood...etc, etc, then he most certainly put himself in the running. It may not have been something he ever dreamed of attaining, but he most certainly took the steps to get himself there.

 

[aspen]

Com'mon guys...

Neither one of you are Catholic - should you really be expected to agree with him on doctrine? Sounds like both of you have the best possible view of him without belonging to the church. Perhaps you should simply recognize that and move on.

The Pope is not involved in you justification or sanctification or redemption or salvation - he did not die for you on the cross - he even teaches that Protestant Christian believers are brothers and sisters in Christ.

Frankly, I think it is great that both of you are willing to not go all 'jack chick' on him.

This thread was started to incite fear - I think you both have brought it to a decent closure. You agree with each other on the majority of your discussion.

Maybe it is time to move on?

 

[lawrance]

I never said you did call me something!



No, you were putting forth a situation that was true for you, and then making that situation true for others...which it not always is.



It's true...people will often make statements based on nothing more than fluff and opinion. But it's also true that others speak from experiance and from their own digging into the truth. My point is you cannot assume to know which is which.



If he joined the Catholic Church (or contiuned to contiune attending), then chose to enter the priesthood...etc, etc, then he most certainly put himself in the running. It may not have been something he ever dreamed of attaining, but he most certainly took the steps to get himself there.

I can't assume to know which is which ? how is that.
I have the bloody doctrine at hand of the RCC. but i think you do not and are just pushing what you have been lead to believe. as i have said i was a protestant, so i do know.
And i would not of known jack if i did not seek into the truth, now would i.
If i stayed as a protestant i would of been just one of the people choked, like in the story of the parable of the sower. as i see many of my friends are stuck and can not grow in strength in the Lord and just fall away, lead by the tempting of Satan.