Poll: Do we worship the God of the old covenant?

[Randy Kluth]

But which one do you worship? The God of the OT, or the God of the NT?

What do you mean by that? (another poll)
Do you mean that:
- The books of the NT are a fulfillment of the laws that God gave to the Israelites through Moses?
- The books of the NT are a fulfillment of the BOOKS of the Law? (the law of Moses)
- The books of the NT are a fulfillment of the PROPHECIES in the books of the Law? (... the Prophets, and Psalms) See Luke 24:44

I think the God of the OT is the same God as the God of the NT.

I think the Law of Moses was designed as a temporary band aid. It met the need for a structured basis by which a relationship between God and Israel could be viewed as viable.

It wasn't as if God needs there to be this "band aid." It's just that He made it His Plan to have such a Covenant basis with the nation Israel so that all nations could see the ultimate basis by which we can have an Eternal Covenant with God.

The Law, therefore, provided all the means necessary to show that Christ had to come, be God, and die on the Cross to forgive our sins. That is the basis by which we can have an Eternal Relationship with God. He is the source of Eternal Life. The Law was just a temporary fix. Animal sacrifices were just temporary tokens to the ultimate coming of Christ to sacrifice his life to forgive us.

 

[Angelina]

Yes - we worship the God of the Old Testament but under the new covenant not the old covenant.

 

[L.A.M.B.]

Colossians 2:9
8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the the rudiments of the world, AND NOT AFTER CHRIST. 9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

Genesis 1:1 KJV: In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.......14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, a glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.

1John 5:
7] For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

We worship the creator in his fullness, of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit as the word declares. He changes NOT, but the way he has to deal with fallen man does change !

He honors his word; the covenant he made with Abraham was fulfilled in Jesus. The Covenant he made with Israel by the Mosaic law was fulfilled in Jesus, the Christ.
The Holy Spirit is here to help us worship and honour God through conviction of our sin, by living in his illumination of the word, in bearing his fruit in our lives and teaching us to walk in obedience of God's word !

There are those among us whom desire to corrupt what God says!
They deny the very words by which we may be saved from eternal punishment and eternal separation from our God.


Choose this day who you will serve, the God of all creation, or the god of this world who denies what God says!

 

[L.A.M.B.]

I worship the God of all his word, OT/NT !

 

[Jay Ross]

Hello

Some members in this thread had stated that they worship the God of the "New Covenant," but Christ did not come to change the Old Covenant or the law, the Salvation Covenant has not changed since the time of Adam. Christ's death on the cross has made the Salvation Covenant like new again. He has renewed it. What Jesus modified was the process by which we gain forgiveness from God as set out in the Salvation Covenant under the heading of the Salvation Process. As Daniel set out in Daniel 9:24b, this is what Christ did on the Cross: -

To make reconciliation for iniquity,​

To bring in everlasting righteousness​

To seal up vision and prophecy,​

And to anoint a scared place {as being} Holy. ​

The following has happened as a result of Christ: -

1. Christ went to the cross to make a way to reconcile our iniquities so that His sacrifice on the cross would cover/hide them from the sight of God while ever we believe that Jesus is the Son of God.
2. Christ's death on the cross has now made possible our everlasting righteousness.
3. Christ's death on the cross has sealed forever more God's vision and Prophecy.
4. Christ's death on the Cross has anointed a scared place as being holy.

What we see today as the "New Covenant" is making like new again, the covenant that God had entered into at Mt. Sinia, is referred to as The Kingdom of Priests, a Holy nation and God's possession among the nations Covenant, and many call this covenant the Old Covenant of the Old Testament.

What we are doing is confusing which covenant is applicable to our individual salvation and Christ came to make the Salvation Covenant like new again.

If I was to cast a vote in the poll above, I would have to vote for all four options. It all comes down to definitions.

 

[Lambano]

1. Yes, we do worship the God of the OLD covenant.
2. No, we worship the God of the NEW covenant
3. God does not change, we worship the God of the OLD covenant.

What's the intended difference between choices 1 and 3?

What is the "New Covenant"? What are its terms and conditions?

Is the "New Covenant" prophesied in Jeremiah 31:31 the same as inaugurated by Jesus in the Luke 22:20 Eucharist ritual, the "spiritual" one mentioned by Paul in 2 Corinthians 3:6, or the new covenant the author of Hebrews talks about in chapters 8 and 9?

 

[Lambano]

In the second century, Marcion of Sinope advocated a theology that the God who sent Jesus Christ was an ontologically different God from the inferior god of the Old Testament who created the world. His canon consisted solely of the Pauline letters and a modified Gospel of Luke. No Old Testament. Marcion was expelled from the church in 144 A.D. for heresy.

 

[St. SteVen]

We worship God, who was God before any covenants.

Well said.

 

[St. SteVen]

1. Yes, we do worship the God of the OLD covenant.
2. No, we worship the God of the NEW covenant
3. God does not change, we worship the God of the OLD covenant.

What's the intended difference between choices 1 and 3?

Interestingly, early votes gravitated toward #3.
Voters latched onto the "God does not change" statement,
completely overlooking the fact that they had essential chosen #1.
Very interesting.

I spun this poll topic off of some discussion on the topic, The God of Hate.
in the Non-Christian General Discussion area. Where a question arose about
whether Jesus worshiped the God of the old covenant.

 

[Nancy]

Interesting that we use a scripture that says JESUS CHRIST is the same yesterday, today, and forever.
To prove that GOD does not change. ???

Most would use the obvious workaround, but Jesus IS God. Still... ???

I don't think it means what we claim.
Is the God of the old covenant the God that we worship today?
Better bring a sheep to the Temple. Cuz... God does not change.

GOD does not change; His covenants DO change.

 

[St. SteVen]

GOD does not change; His covenants DO change.

Does a change in covenant (agreement) equal a change of mind?

 

[MatthewG]

Does a change in covenant (agreement) equal a change of mind?

Hello Steven,

From my perspective it would be because the promise of the one whom would bless all nations had come, in which the former covenant would be fulfilled in the promised son, the Word of God, sent born of the virgin mary overshadowed by the holy spirit. It would not equate to a change of mind. It just means that the former covenant was completed by and through the Son of God, who became the only begotten son after the resurrection, who fulfilled the law and the prophets. Which brings forth the new covenant.

Good question, sir.

Jeremiah 31:

The New Covenant​

31 “Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, 32 not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, my covenant that they broke, though I was their husband, declares the Lord. 33 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 34 And no longer shall each one teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.”

 

[Nancy]

Does a change in covenant (agreement) equal a change of mind?

I wouldn't think so as, Jesus was appointed to His death and our redemption was already set to happen before the foundations of the earth. Since God sees the end from the beginning, can't you just imagine Him arranging things to work toward the goal of His ultimate plan for His creation?
God has changed His mind a few times in scripture, His mercies are new everyday Amen! He also "repented" making man on Earth because of our wicked ways. BUT, He never did and never would break His own or any, covenants! He is a FAITHFUL God.

 

[St. SteVen]

I wouldn't think so as, Jesus was appointed to His death and our redemption was already set to happen before the foundations of the earth. Since God sees the end from the beginning, can't you just imagine Him arranging things to work toward the goal of His ultimate plan for His creation?
God has changed His mind a few times in scripture, His mercies are new everyday Amen! He also "repented" making man on Earth because of our wicked ways. BUT, He never did and never would break His own or any, covenants! He is a FAITHFUL God.

Well said.
Reminded me of the Logos/logic/reason/plan that was from the beginning. The redemption of humankind, made in the image of God.
The Logos became flesh and dwelt among us. "... We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth." John 1:14 NIV

Quite the circuitous path to get to the goal. Still in route.

Isaiah 50:7 KJV
For the Lord God will help me; therefore shall I not be confounded:
therefore have I set my face like a flint, and I know that I shall not be ashamed.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Does a change in covenant (agreement) equal a change of mind?

Does God change His mind...ever?

 

[St. SteVen]

St. SteVen said:
Does a change in covenant (agreement) equal a change of mind?

Does God change His mind...ever?

That's an interesting question, thanks.
I suppose the knee-jerk (church-taught apologetic) answer would be:
"No! God never changes." _________________ (insert proof-text reference here)

The Flood text in Genesis chapter six may be the best evidence of a changed mind.
But whether God's quote is to be taken literally might be a question.
May be more of an explanation? Text at the bottom of this post.

Verse 13 seems like a change of mind.
From "be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth" to
"I am going to put an end to all people..."

Genesis 6:11-13 NIV
Now the earth was corrupt in God’s sight and was full of violence.
12 God saw how corrupt the earth had become,
for all the people on earth had corrupted their ways.
13 So God said to Noah, “I am going to put an end to all people,
for the earth is filled with violence because of them.
I am surely going to destroy both them and the earth.

 

[St. SteVen]

Does God change His mind...ever?

Actually, I suppose this is the popular apologetic reference.

Numbers 23:19 NIV
God is not human, that he should lie,
not a human being, that he should change his mind.
Does he speak and then not act?
Does he promise and not fulfill?

 

[Jay Ross]

Actually, I suppose this is the popular apologetic reference.

Numbers 23:19 NIV
God is not human, that he should lie,
not a human being, that he should change his mind.
Does he speak and then not act?
Does he promise and not fulfill?

Does God do things the way man might perceive they should be done. You are arguing that God should do all things man's way. Have you been successful in achieving that outcome?

I do not think so.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Actually, I suppose this is the popular apologetic reference.

Numbers 23:19 NIV
God is not human, that he should lie,
not a human being, that he should change his mind.
Does he speak and then not act?
Does he promise and not fulfill?

I think the sense is that when God is really determined to do something, nothing can deter Him. I don't think it means God is utterly unwilling to change His plans.

Usually the default position is, God knows everything and so everything that happens He has predetermined. How can He change what He has predetermined?

That's not satisfying to me. If we truly have free will, then our response to God's word determines what God Himself will do. And so, He may initially wish to destroy us, seeing our hardened hearts. But then, when we change our pattern and decide to repent, He may change His mind, and not destroy us.

 

[Freedm]

Answers #1 and #3 are the same answer. So, I'm not sure how to answer this. Why did you phrase your poll this way?