Poll: Do we worship the God of the old covenant?

[St. SteVen]

Poll closes in three days from launch. Discussion may continue after that point.

Do we worship the God of the old covenant? Cast your vote.
Voters can change their votes.

Do we worship the God of the old covenant?
- Yes, we do worship the God of the OLD covenant.
- No, we worship the God of the NEW covenant.
- God does not change, we worship the God of the OLD covenant.
- Other - post your answer. Thanks.

Let's discuss. Thanks.

 

[Nancy]

Well, like number 3 states...He NEVER changes. His covenants do but He does not. IMHO!

 

[St. SteVen]

Well, like number 3 states...He NEVER changes. His covenants do but He does not. IMHO!

Do you worship the God of the OLD covenant? (that's part of #3)

 

[MatthewG]

My choice would be other - God only doesn't change in the love that he shows. There are scriptures where God changes his mind. God's covenant with his people (the Jewish nation of the twelve tribes); had blessings and curses. There was a new covenant that came in after the victory of Jesus Christ, doing away with everything that once was. Yahava is the very same God, that was in the beginning, and hasn't changed, in the sense of the love that he shows. He has proven to be able to change his mind, just as human beings can also change their mind because human beings are created in his image.

Exodus 32:14
New King James Version
14 So the Lord relented from the harm which He said He would do to His people.

Deuteronomy 32:26
New King James Version
26 I would have said, “I will dash them in pieces,
I will make the memory of them to cease from among men,”


2 Samuel 24:16
New King James Version
16 And when the [a]angel stretched out His hand over Jerusalem to destroy it, the Lord relented from the destruction, and said to the angel who was destroying the people, “It is enough; now restrain your hand.” And the angel of the Lord was by the threshing floor of Araunah the Jebusite.

1 Chronicles 21:15
New King James Version
15 And God sent [a]an angel to Jerusalem to destroy it. As he was destroying, the Lord looked and relented of the disaster, and said to the angel who was destroying, “It is enough; now restrain [c]your hand.” And the angel of the Lord stood by the threshing floor of [d]Ornan the Jebusite.

Psalm 106:45
New King James Version
45 And for their sake He remembered His covenant,
And relented according to the multitude of His mercies.


Jeremiah 18:8
New King James Version
8 if that nation against whom I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I thought to bring upon it.


Jeremiah 26:13
New King James Version
13 Now therefore, amend your ways and your doings, and obey the voice of the Lord your God; then the Lord will relent concerning the doom that He has pronounced against you.


Jeremiah 26:19
New King James Version
19 Did Hezekiah king of Judah and all Judah ever put him to death? Did he not fear the Lord and seek the Lord’s favor? And the Lord relented concerning the doom which He had pronounced against them. But we are doing great evil against ourselves.”


Joel 2:13
New King James Version
13 So rend your heart, and not your garments;
Return to the Lord your God,
For He is gracious and merciful,
Slow to anger, and of great kindness;
And He relents from doing harm.​

 

[Nancy]

Do you worship the God of the OLD covenant? (that's part of #3)

I did pretty much state as much in my post above. But I will word it differently here:

"Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever."
Hebrews 13:8

God does not change...simple really, and comforting as, we know that only good comes from Him.

"Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow of turning."
James 1:17

 

[St. SteVen]

"Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever."
Hebrews 13:8

God does not change...simple really, and comforting as, we know that only good comes from Him.

Interesting that we use a scripture that says JESUS CHRIST is the same yesterday, today, and forever.
To prove that GOD does not change. ???

Most would use the obvious workaround, but Jesus IS God. Still... ???

I don't think it means what we claim.
Is the God of the old covenant the God that we worship today?
Better bring a sheep to the Temple. Cuz... God does not change.

 

[St. SteVen]

"Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow of turning."
James 1:17

I think this means that we can trust God. Not that he does not change.

 

[Nancy]

Interesting that we use a scripture that says JESUS CHRIST is the same yesterday, today, and forever.
To prove that GOD does not change. ???

Most would use the obvious workaround, but Jesus IS God. Still... ???

I don't think it means what we claim.
Is the God of the old covenant the God that we worship today?
Better bring a sheep to the Temple. Cuz... God does not change.

Okay then Steve, I believe Jesus was and is God. And yes, we worship the SAME God that made the old covenant and ushered in the new covenant with Christ. It's not another God.

 

[Nancy]

I think this means that we can trust God. Not that he does not change.

It was the "with whom "there is no variation or shadow of turning" that I was mostly referring to in that verse.

 

[St. SteVen]

Okay then Steve, I believe Jesus was and is God. And yes, we worship the SAME God that made the old covenant and ushered in the new covenant with Christ. It's not another God.

I imagine that no one will want to admit to worshiping of the God of the OLD covenant. #3
But most will vote for #3. God does not change, we worship the God of the OLD covenant.

 

[Mr E]

It’s a truth easily misapplied. To say “God changeth not” doesn’t mean He never changes His “mind” or way of doing things, His opinion, or how He reveals Himself. It simply means that His nature and character, faithfulness, integrity, goodness, and love, etc do not diminish over time. Of course He changes and has changed— scripture is full of examples.

And over time, with each revelation, our understanding of God changes. Our understanding of Him evolves while He remains the same- His spirit- the essence, or essential nature of Him does not change apart from how it is manifest in physical form. In spirit, in nature, in us.

 

[Rockerduck]

Same God, different covenants. Abrahamic, Mosaic, and the New Covenant with the crucified, resurrected, and Glorified body of Jesus Christ.

Malachi 3:6 - For I am the Lord, I do not change;

 

[Randy Kluth]

It's a good question, but can be very misleading. For example, if I say I worship the God of the OT, it sounds like I'm Jewish. But if I add, I believe God does not change, then my insinuation is that God can move on to be God of the NT as well, and still be the God of the OT.

This was dealt with in history over the matter of Marcion. Some of the early Church Fathers protested his division of God into 2 gods, which is in itself a contradiction. If there is more than one "God," then by definition He cannot be a God who is less than "one." He is either everything or not God.

But God can easily be both God of the OT and God of the NT. Those who claim there is a contradiction between God of the Law and God of the NT do not understand that Christians see the NT as the fulfillment of the Law.

 

[Mr E]

It's a good question, but can be very misleading. For example, if I say I worship the God of the OT, it sounds like I'm Jewish. But if I add, I believe God does not change, then my insinuation is that God can move on to be God of the NT as well, and still be the God of the OT.

This was deal with in history over the matter of Marcion. Some of the early Church Fathers protested his division of God into 2 gods, which is in itself a contradiction. If there is more than one "God," then by definition He cannot be a God who is less than "one." He is either everything or not God.

But God can easily be both God of the OT and God of the NT. Those who claim there is a contradiction between God of the Law and God of the NT do not understand that Christians see the NT as the fulfillment of the Law.

Hey.... it's his first poll...... I'm sure his next one will be more refined. He did offer option #4 for those unsatisfied with the other responses.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Hey.... it's his first poll...... I'm sure his next one will be more refined. He did offer option #4 for those unsatisfied with the other responses.

Are you a flying Mr. Ed?

 

[St. SteVen]

Same God, different covenants. Abrahamic, Mosaic, and the New Covenant with the crucified, resurrected, and Glorified body of Jesus Christ.

Malachi 3:6 - For I am the Lord, I do not change;

Let's read the WHOLE verse. (what's the "Therefore" there for?)

Malachi 3:6 NKJV
“For I am the Lord, I do not change;
Therefore you are not consumed, O sons of Jacob.

 

[St. SteVen]

But God can easily be both God of the OT and God of the NT.

But which one do you worship? The God of the OT, or the God of the NT?

Those who claim there is a contradiction between God of the Law and God of the NT do not understand that Christians see the NT as the fulfillment of the Law.

What do you mean by that? (another poll)
Do you mean that:
- The books of the NT are a fulfillment of the laws that God gave to the Israelites through Moses?
- The books of the NT are a fulfillment of the BOOKS of the Law? (the law of Moses)
- The books of the NT are a fulfillment of the PROPHECIES in the books of the Law? (... the Prophets, and Psalms) See Luke 24:44

 

[St. SteVen]

Are you a flying Mr. Ed?

Good thing he isn't Mr. F


@Mr E

 

[St. SteVen]

It’s a truth easily misapplied.

EXACTLY!

To say “God changeth not” doesn’t mean He never changes His “mind” or way of doing things, His opinion, or how He reveals Himself. It simply means that His nature and character, faithfulness, integrity, goodness, and love, etc do not diminish over time.

Agree.

Of course He changes and has changed— scripture is full of examples.

EXACTLY!

And over time, with each revelation, our understanding of God changes.

Agree.

Our understanding of Him evolves while He remains the same- His spirit- the essence, or essential nature of Him does not change apart from how it is manifest in physical form. In spirit, in nature, in us.

Right.
"... His spirit- the essence, or essential nature of Him does not change..."
Great post, thanks!

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Poll closes in three days from launch. Discussion may continue after that point.

Do we worship the God of the old covenant? Cast your vote.
Voters can change their votes.

Do we worship the God of the old covenant?
- Yes, we do worship the God of the OLD covenant.
- No, we worship the God of the NEW covenant.
- God does not change, we worship the God of the OLD covenant.
- Other - post your answer. Thanks.

Let's discuss. Thanks.

We worship God, who was God before any covenants.
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it... and the Word became flesh and dwelt among us." John 1:1-5, 14
"For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist."