Poll on OSAS

[Born_Again]

I must reiterate that ELECTION in the NT, is not a choosing for a position above or in lieu of others, but a position of having attained what God KNEW by foreknowledge. Similar to what someone who is elected not such as President Elect. One is NOT elected until they are actually in that position, just as in the case of Esau and Jacob. A careful exegesis of Rom 9 in context, and not just v11 will show that, along with what Paul states it in Acts 9:15. All of these MUST be taken along with other scripture that does show salvation was God's plan for ALL mankind and NOT just an elite God chose before time.

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. 19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20 Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed. 21 But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God.

This cannot be explained away by soteriological bias, it says what it says, simple and truthfully.

I have been on the fence about OSAS for sometime, but I will say, Stans post here may have sealed it up for me. "Whoevers believes in Him". Like you said, God has foreknowledge so He already knew who was going to follow Him. This makes the most logical sense to me for the time being. Unless someone can change my mind.

 

[justaname]

I must reiterate that ELECTION in the NT, is not a choosing for a position above or in lieu of others, but a position of having attained what God KNEW by foreknowledge. Similar to what someone who is elected not such as President Elect. One is NOT elected until they are actually in that position, just as in the case of Esau and Jacob. A careful exegesis of Rom 9 in context, and not just v11 will show that, along with what Paul states it in Acts 9:15. All of these MUST be taken along with other scripture that does show salvation was God's plan for ALL mankind and NOT just an elite God chose before time.

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. 19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20 Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed. 21 But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God.

This cannot be explained away by soteriological bias, it says what it says, simple and truthfully.

No one denies belief being the condition, rather how one comes to that belief. It is God who chose us in Christ. Why do you ignore the Scriptures given and submit a red herring? Also concerning Romans the Scripture states

though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad-in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls- - Romans 9:11

This does not say because God knew what would be done rather the condition is God's election according to will, not foreknowledge. The text specifies this.

It is by His doing that we are in Christ Jesus... Let him who boast boast in the Lord.1 Cor 1:30-31

I can post numerous scriptures stating God's election is based on His will and purpose. There is not one stating God's election is based on foreknowledge.

Blessed is the one you choose and bring near, to dwell in your courts! We shall be satisfied with the goodness of your house, the holiness of your temple! - Psalm 65:4

12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,
13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God. - John 1:12-13

 

[StanJ]

No one denies belief being the condition, rather how one comes to that belief. It is God who chose us in Christ. Why do you ignore the Scriptures given and submit a red herring? Also concerning Romans the Scripture states

though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad-in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls- - Romans 9:11

This does not say because God knew what would be done rather the condition is God's election according to will, not foreknowledge. The text specifies this.

It is by His doing that we are in Christ Jesus... Let him who boast boast in the Lord.1 Cor 1:30-31

I can post numerous scriptures stating God's election is based on His will and purpose. There is not one stating God's election is based on foreknowledge.

Blessed is the one you choose and bring near, to dwell in your courts! We shall be satisfied with the goodness of your house, the holiness of your temple! - Psalm 65:4

12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,
13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God. - John 1:12-13

God DRAWS us, ALL of us. We choose as Paul also teaches in Rom 10:8-11. We are only called AFTER we are saved, as Rom 8:30 shows.

Yes and how does He determine His will or plan...by His foreknowledge. It doesn't come out of a vacuum like you assume. It is deliberate and orderly, as God is a God of order. We do not have a God that p-ick people for salvation in a willy nilly fashion.

Yes, we should never boast in ourselves, but we can rightly claim Jesus as saviour because God draws us to Him. At THAT point we either choose to accept Him or we choose to reject Him. John 7:17

It is by confession that we are saved, as again Paul teaches in Rom 10:8-11. It is by doing that we SHOW our salvation as James teaches in chapter 4;
Submit yourselves, then, to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. 8 Come near to God and he will come near to you. Wash your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded. 9 Grieve, mourn and wail. Change your laughter to mourning and your joy to gloom. 10 Humble yourselves before the Lord, and he will lift you up.

Psalm 65:4 is about those that already believe and obey, and how Blessed they become IF God chooses them because of their faith, for a special purpose. Cherry picking verses OUT of context NEVER works.

 

[justaname]

God DRAWS us, ALL of us. We choose as Paul also teaches in Rom 10:8-11. We are only called AFTER we are saved, as Rom 8:30 shows.

Yes and how does He determine His will or plan...by His foreknowledge. It doesn't come out of a vacuum like you assume. It is deliberate and orderly, as God is a God of order. We do not have a God that p-ick people for salvation in a willy nilly fashion.

Yes, we should never boast in ourselves, but we can rightly claim Jesus as saviour because God draws us to Him. At THAT point we either choose to accept Him or we choose to reject Him. John 7:17

It is by confession that we are saved, as again Paul teaches in Rom 10:8-11. It is by doing that we SHOW our salvation as James teaches in chapter 4;
Submit yourselves, then, to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. 8 Come near to God and he will come near to you. Wash your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded. 9 Grieve, mourn and wail. Change your laughter to mourning and your joy to gloom. 10 Humble yourselves before the Lord, and he will lift you up.

Psalm 65:4 is about those that already believe and obey, and how Blessed they become IF God chooses them because of their faith, for a special purpose. Cherry picking verses OUT of context NEVER works.

Stan,

You followed your red herring with another. In respect to foreknowledge you have said nothing but THUS SAYITH STANJ.

Deal with the John 6 passage...
Deal with the 1Corinthians passage...
Deal with the James passage...
Deal with the John 1 passage...

Give me one scripture that says God selects based on foreknowledge.

And please come up with something better than "cherry picking verses out of context"...that is your canned answer for everyone you disagree with.

 

[StanJ]

Stan,

You followed your red herring with another. In respect to foreknowledge you have said nothing but THUS SAYITH STANJ.

Deal with the John 6 passage...
Deal with the 1Corinthians passage...
Deal with the James passage...
Deal with the John 1 passage...

Give me one scripture that says God selects based on foreknowledge.

And please come up with something better than "cherry picking verses out of context"...that is your canned answer for everyone you disagree with.

Not at all, just didn't respond to what you deflected to, as has been you style all along in this particular thread as well as any that deal with this issue. When I have you deflect further or simply ignore the responses.

John 6 says Jesus knew...that is foreknowledge.
1 Cor ? You seem to have forgotten which one you want me to deal with, but neither of them supports SE.
James what? You do have a propensity for obfuscating when you want clarity. If you mean the one I just quoted, it was DEALT with.
John 1 what? Again more obfuscation AND deflection. If you want a specific answer, then BE specific in your requests.

I've given you them time and time again, and all you do is avoid dealing with them or deflecting to something else.
Try actually READING Acts 2:23 and 1 Peter 1:2 as well as Rom 8:29 & 11:2, then DEAL with them. I won't ask again.

Try not cherry picking and I won't have to comment on it.

 

[justaname]

Not at all, just didn't respond to what you deflected to, as has been you style all along in this particular thread as well as any that deal with this issue. When I have you deflect further or simply ignore the responses.

John 6 says Jesus knew...that is foreknowledge.
1 Cor ? You seem to have forgotten which one you want me to deal with, but neither of them supports SE.
James what? You do have a propensity for obfuscating when you want clarity. If you mean the one I just quoted, it was DEALT with.
John 1 what? Again more obfuscation AND deflection. If you want a specific answer, then BE specific in your requests.

I've given you them time and time again, and all you do is avoid dealing with them or deflecting to something else.
Try actually READING Acts 2:23 and 1 Peter 1:2 as well as Rom 8:29 & 11:2, then DEAL with them. I won't ask again.

Try not cherry picking and I won't have to comment on it.

Anyone can read the threads and see you StanJ have deflected up to this point. I digress...

Let's start with the one you refuse to deal with and have never dealt with in any of our discussions.

27 But God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise; God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong;
28 God chose what is low and despised in the world, even things that are not, to bring to nothing things that are,
29 so that no human being might boast in the presence of God. - 1 Corinthians 1:27-29

This speaks directly to God's sovereign choice and purpose for choosing which has nothing to do with foreknowledge.


And because of him you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, righteousness and sanctification and redemption, - 1 Corinthians 1:30

This here speaks to how we came to be in Christ...it is not because of our choice, rather His.

John agrees here...

who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God. - John 1:13

You want to say we are born again by the will of our choosing...this is wrong.

By stating you made the right choice of "gods" by picking the Godhead of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit it leaves room for boasting. This idea is pride, simply why many refuse to release this idea. This idea purports that by your will you chose the proper "god" that being the God of Abraham. By a choosing of your will...

False. God chooses those in Christ for His namesake and purpose!

so that, as it is written, "Let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord." - 1 Corinthians 1:31

Speaking to the John 6 passage I agree Jesus is omniscience, yet this passage is not speaking about foreknowledge.

And he said, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father." - John 6:65

 

[StanJ]

Anyone can read the threads and see you StanJ have deflected up to this point. I digress...

Let's start with the one you refuse to deal with and have never dealt with in any of our discussions.

27 But God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise; God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong;
28 God chose what is low and despised in the world, even things that are not, to bring to nothing things that are,
29 so that no human being might boast in the presence of God. - 1 Corinthians 1:27-29

This speaks directly to God's sovereign choice and purpose for choosing which has nothing to do with foreknowledge.


And because of him you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, righteousness and sanctification and redemption, - 1 Corinthians 1:30

This here speaks to how we came to be in Christ...it is not because of our choice, rather His.

John agrees here...

who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God. - John 1:13

You want to say we are born again by the will of our choosing...this is wrong.

By stating you made the right choice of "gods" by picking the Godhead of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit it leaves room for boasting. This idea is pride, simply why many refuse to release this idea. This idea purports that by your will you chose the proper "god" that being the God of Abraham. By a choosing of your will...

False. God chooses those in Christ for His namesake and purpose!

so that, as it is written, "Let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord." - 1 Corinthians 1:31

Speaking to the John 6 passage I agree Jesus is omniscience, yet this passage is not speaking about foreknowledge.

And he said, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father." - John 6:65

that would be impossible, seeing as I never deflect.

As far as 1 Cor 1:27-29 is concerned, it says NOTHING about OSAS or SE, so what exactly do you want me to address?
The context does NOT show God choosing people, but things. Seems you don't understand basic grammar, even in English. In the Greek, Paul uses prepositive articles here, NOT nouns or pronouns.

It speaks to what things God uses....common, lowly things. You eisegete this verse for your own dogmatic purposes, NOT as they truly stand in scripture. I have dealt with this and may other of your improperly presented scriptures for quite a while no and yet you seem to forget or it's just your way to ignore and constantly bring up issues already refuted?

Because God drew me and I accepted Christ, I'm in Christ. God did not MAKE me choose Jesus, I came because He drew me and I confessed because I recognized the truth of who Jesus is.

Paul talked about boasting when it comes to knowledge, not salvation, and you continue to improperly eisegete scripture in this regard.

Another example of cherry picking a single verse and ignoring the verse just before it. In v64, it says, "Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him"

Sorry, but I find your style of responding totally disingenuous given you probably read that verse and just decided it didn't fit your dogma, so you wouldn't use it and hope others wouldn't notice.

 

[justaname]

StanJ,

Please re-read post #39 and explain how I attempt to ignore John 6:64...it is plainly displayed.
The idea of foreknowledge in verse 64 is your eisegesis. Easily it is understood through Jesus' omniscience. And you have yet to deal with verse 65...still deflecting. *YAWN

Then you comment on 1 Corinthians 27-29 but omit verse 30...again deflecting... *YAWN *YAWN

Ver. 30 f. In contrast (δέ) to the ὅπως μὴ καυχ. π. σ. ἐνώπιον τ. Θεοῦ, we have now the true relation to God and the true and right καυχᾶσθαι arising out of it: But truly it is God’s work, that ye are Christians and so partakers of the greatest divine blessings, that none of you should in any way boast himself save only in God. Comp. Eph. 2:8 f.—ἐξ αὐτοῦ] has the principal emphasis: From no other than God is derived the fact that you are in Christ (as the element of your life). Ἐξ denotes the causal origination.
Meyer, H. A. W. (1879). Critical and Exegetical Handbook to the Epistles to the Corinthians. (W. P. Dickson, Ed., D. D. Bannerman, Trans.) (Vol. 1, p. 49). Edinburgh: T&T Clark.

The use of verses 27-29 show the context is of God's sovereign election.
Stan you still haven't dealt with either of these passages.

Another comment to make before you erect a straw-man. I never once commented that God "MADE" you choose Jesus. I have continually argued that we as believers freely come to Jesus, yet this is by God's design not our will. Glory be to God not man's smart decisions...

The blind remain blind unless God allows the sight.

 

[Barrd]

Wait a minute.
Do we come to the Lord of our own free will, or not?
Are all our decision made for us before we are ever born?
Science tells us that our emotions are nothing more than electro-chemical reactions...our love for our spouse, our friends, our children...nothing more than chemicals in our brain...
Is our love pre-programmed into us? Are we, then, nothing more than a bunch of wind-up dollies for God's amusement?

Oh, and, Justaname...you misspelled "sayeth". Thought you'd like to know....

 

[StanJ]

Please re-read post #39 and explain how I attempt to ignore John 6:64...it is plainly displayed.
The idea of foreknowledge in verse 64 is your eisegesis. Easily it is understood through Jesus' omniscience. And you have yet to deal with verse 65...still deflecting. *YAWN

Then you comment on 1 Corinthians 27-29 but omit verse 30...again deflecting... *YAWN *YAWN

Ver. 30 f. In contrast (δέ) to the ὅπως μὴ καυχ. π. σ. ἐνώπιον τ. Θεοῦ, we have now the true relation to God and the true and right καυχᾶσθαι arising out of it: But truly it is God’s work, that ye are Christians and so partakers of the greatest divine blessings, that none of you should in any way boast himself save only in God. Comp. Eph. 2:8 f.—ἐξ αὐτοῦ] has the principal emphasis: From no other than God is derived the fact that you are in Christ (as the element of your life). Ἐξ denotes the causal origination.
Meyer, H. A. W. (1879). Critical and Exegetical Handbook to the Epistles to the Corinthians. (W. P. Dickson, Ed., D. D. Bannerman, Trans.) (Vol. 1, p. 49). Edinburgh: T&T Clark.

The use of verses 27-29 show the context is of God's sovereign election.
Stan you still haven't dealt with either of these passages.

Another comment to make before you erect a straw-man. I never once commented that God "MADE" you choose Jesus. I have continually argued that we as believers freely come to Jesus, yet this is by God's design not our will. Glory be to God not man's smart decisions...

The blind remain blind unless God allows the sight.

First of all, my response was to your post before this, not back to 39. If you think Jesus was omnipotent then you really don't understand the Trinity. Jesus was the fullness of God, and so is the father and the Holy Spirit, but if foreknowledge wasn't applicable then the word omnipotent would have been used, or is also not applicable. I'm not going to help you to deflect any further off the beaten track. We can just stick with words already in use in the scriptures, which would be FOREKNOWLEDGE.

You complain about my style but them make these *YAWN comments in your typically condescending fashion? Yeh right.

It was YOU who asked about it, so if it was relevant you should have included it. Always something with you to add instead of DEALING with the issue once and for all, you equivocate and deflect. Verse 30 says what it says, it doesn't need your added interpolation. Just as God draws us, He drew them to Jesus, who became their wisdom, and of course it IS because of God that ANY of us are saved. You add a concept to this scripture that is NOT there, except in your fallacious dogma. You lack of acceptance does NOT mean I have exegeted them properly, it just means your are inculcated into your dogma and cannot move from it, just as if your feet were set in cement.

We don't freely come to Christ but we don't freely choose. How exactly does that work? We come to Christ because God draws or woos us by His love. We either respond positively to that and the revelation of Christ as our savior, or we don't. The choice is ours, we are NOT elected, we BECOME the elect.

However I completely agree with your sarcastic closing that the blind remain blind. Unless one has received the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, just as Paul did in Acts 9:17-18, one cannot have the scales of blindness removed so one can SEE what is the truth in God's word.

 

[StanJ]

Wait a minute.
Do we come to the Lord of our own free will, or not?
Are all our decision made for us before we are ever born?
Science tells us that our emotions are nothing more than electro-chemical reactions...our love for our spouse, our friends, our children...nothing more than chemicals in our brain...
Is our love pre-programmed into us? Are we, then, nothing more than a bunch of wind-up dollies for God's amusement?

Reverse psychology doesn't work on him Barrd.

 

[Born_Again]

Wait a minute.
Do we come to the Lord of our own free will, or not?
Are all our decision made for us before we are ever born?
Science tells us that our emotions are nothing more than electro-chemical reactions...our love for our spouse, our friends, our children...nothing more than chemicals in our brain...
Is our love pre-programmed into us? Are we, then, nothing more than a bunch of wind-up dollies for God's amusement?

Oh, and, Justaname...you misspelled "sayeth". Thought you'd like to know....

Barrd,

I'm curious to know what your answers are to your own questions.

 

[Barrd]

Reverse psychology doesn't work on him Barrd.

On who, Stan?

Or should I say "On Who?"

 

[Barrd]

Barrd,

I'm curious to know what your answers are to your own questions.

BA,
Much as I appreciate the compliment, I have to tell you the truth...I don't have any answers to my questions.
And frankly, I don't think any one else does, either...

Well, I have to say that I do not believe that we are nothing more than wind up dollies...do you?

Tell ya what...once I get all through explaining the technology behind the Creation of the Universe, I'll work on these questions for you. Be patient, it may take me a little time....

 

[mjrhealth]

Do we come to the Lord of our own free will, or not?
Are all our decision made for us before we are ever born?
Science tells us that our emotions are nothing more than electro-chemical reactions...our love for our spouse, our friends, our children...nothing more than chemicals in our brain...
Is our love pre-programmed into us? Are we, then, nothing more than a bunch of wind-up dollies for God's amusement?

Do we come to the Lord of our own free will, or not?
Yes we come to Jesus of our own free will, we may not understand it but we do it.

Are all our decision made for us before we are ever born?
No, But many are chosen before they are born, and seems the enemy finds out and will do anything to stop them being born and growing Up, I assume He can see the light in them and is determined to snuff it out.

Science tells us that our emotions are nothing more than electro-chemical reactions...our love for our spouse, our friends, our children...nothing more than chemicals in our brain...
Yes and a friend of mine had that conversation with Jesus and He concurs it is why Prayer can change the way you feel and why peace in Him can heal you,

Is our love pre-programmed into us?
Yes, we are created in His image, God is love therefore we are set to love, wheter we do or not is our choice.

Are we, then, nothing more than a bunch of wind-up dollies for God's amusement?
No, but for the devil yes, he winds us up all the time and keeps many enslaved

In all His Love

 

[justaname]

Wait a minute.
Do we come to the Lord of our own free will, or not?
Are all our decision made for us before we are ever born?
Science tells us that our emotions are nothing more than electro-chemical reactions...our love for our spouse, our friends, our children...nothing more than chemicals in our brain...
Is our love pre-programmed into us? Are we, then, nothing more than a bunch of wind-up dollies for God's amusement?

Oh, and, Justaname...you misspelled "sayeth". Thought you'd like to know....

Thank you for the spelling lesson Barrd. I did comment though that we freely come to the Lord. We do freely choose Him, yet He first chose us is what I believe.

 

[Barrd]

Thank you for the spelling lesson Barrd. I did comment though that we freely come to the Lord. We do freely choose Him, yet He first chose us is what I believe.

Always happy to be of help, Justaname.

Yes, you did make that rather confusing remark, which is what led me to ask my questions-which-have-no-answers.

Well, except for the bit about whether we are just wind-up dollies for God's amusement. I do not believe that for a second.

Do you?

 

[Barrd]

Do we come to the Lord of our own free will, or not?
Yes we come to Jesus of our own free will, we may not understand it but we do it.

Are all our decision made for us before we are ever born?
No, But many are chosen before they are born, and seems the enemy finds out and will do anything to stop them being born and growing Up, I assume He can see the light in them and is determined to snuff it out.

Science tells us that our emotions are nothing more than electro-chemical reactions...our love for our spouse, our friends, our children...nothing more than chemicals in our brain...
Yes and a friend of mine had that conversation with Jesus and He concurs it is why Prayer can change the way you feel and why peace in Him can heal you,

Is our love pre-programmed into us?
Yes, we are created in His image, God is love therefore we are set to love, wheter we do or not is our choice.

Are we, then, nothing more than a bunch of wind-up dollies for God's amusement?
No, but for the devil yes, he winds us up all the time and keeps many enslaved

In all His Love

Mj, this is the most interesting answer I've ever seen from you.
Not saying I agree with it, you understand....but it is interesting.

 

[StanJ]

On who, Stan?

Or should I say "On Who?"

I'm pretty sure it's WHOM, and that would be justaname.

 

[justaname]

Always happy to be of help, Justaname.

Yes, you did make that rather confusing remark, which is what led me to ask my questions-which-have-no-answers.

Well, except for the bit about whether we are just wind-up dollies for God's amusement. I do not believe that for a second.

Do you?

I would say no I don't believe that...