Hi all. I am just interested in CB's stats on this.
I believe in OSAS. But only from God's perspective. He does not make mistakes. We do.
I believe in OSAS. But only from God's perspective. He does not make mistakes. We do.
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I disagree! Adam and Eve’s situation was conditional in that as long as they obeyed God they could live.brakelite said:Salvation is conditional on our abiding in Christ...the vine...and bearing fruit which bears testimony to that enduring relationship.
Yeah, I'm with Jun2.brakelite said:Salvation is conditional on our abiding in Christ...the vine...and bearing fruit which bears testimony to that enduring relationship.
Rom 11:16-24 is being used as a metaphor. That's like using Luke 16:19-31 to prove soul sleep is false, or John 15 allegory.brakelite said:You all completely ignore the entire meaning of language in order to further your opinion. If one is attached to the vine, he is attached for one reason only. He was grafted into the vine by God Himself, based on His acceptance of whatever confession of faith was made by the "branch" to begin with. Yet Jesus warned that the branch that does not bear fruit would be cut off and destroyed. That is simple language.
1 ¶ I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
The old objection that "he wasn't a true Christian to begin with" cannot be offered here. The branch is grafted in by the Father, the Husbandman. These are not unbelievers. The promise of eternal life is secure yes, for those who abide...for those who remain as a part of the true vine. The promise for those who do abide is that they will bear fruit...and thus will be rewarded. But if one, being a branch, does not bear fruit, for whatever reason, the promise is that they will be cut off, taken away, and burnt. Clear, unambiguous, simple, and conditional salvation on bearing fruit.
Good post Oz. Perseverance of the saints is most definitely biblical. Is the term OSAS not synonymous though, or does it simply bug you? Ha - ATPOzSpen said:I found the second option, 'We can lose our salvation (Arminianism' to be a straw man fallacy.
Jacob Arminius believed in 'Perseverance of the Saints' (in Works of Arminius). Therefore, I voted for 'None of the above' as I'm convinced that perseverance of the saints is the biblical doctrine and not OSAS.
Oz
What if you see that as verses warning us to ensure we are in Christ? I agree with you. Paul was crystal clear on ensuring we watch and judge ourselves properly.The Barrd said:There are too many scriptures that warn us against losing our salvation.
Either the whole Bible is true, or none of it is true.
Hi Oz. I have googled and I just can't figure this out. Maybe I am bad at Googling or not highly intelligent <_<. This thread is not meant for intense discussion . But you really have me puzzled with this.OzSpen said:I found the second option, 'We can lose our salvation (Arminianism' to be a straw man fallacy.
Jacob Arminius believed in 'Perseverance of the Saints' (in Works of Arminius). Therefore, I voted for 'None of the above' as I'm convinced that perseverance of the saints is the biblical doctrine and not OSAS.
Oz
No, King J, these are verses that very clearly warn us that we can fall from grace, and lose our salvation.KingJ said:What if you see that as verses warning us to ensure we are in Christ? I agree with you. Paul was crystal clear on ensuring we watch and judge ourselves properly.
King J,KingJ said:Hi Oz. I have googled and I just can't figure this out. Maybe I am bad at Googling or not highly intelligent <_<. This thread is not meant for intense discussion . But you really have me puzzled with this.
Are you saying that we persevere to be saved?
How do you explain 2 Cor 5:17 if so?
I hope that that gives some more clarity to my understanding of the perseverance of the saints. Both Calvinists and Classical/Reformed Arminians teach this view.'The Scriptures teach that all who are by faith united to Christ, who have been justified by God's grace and regenerated by His Spirit, will never totally nor finally fall away from the state of grace, but certainly persevere therein to the end. This does not mean that every one who professes to be saved is eternally saved' (Thiessen 1949:385).
Perseverance of the saints is biblical and originated in the word of God 2,000 years ago.Wormwood said:The first person to teach OSAS was Augustine, who also originated the "Calvinist" system in general. The system was based in the concept of total depravity which involved bondage of the will and resulted in a monergistic view of salvation.
Later, there have been those who have rejected the Calvinist system who felt the OSAS doctrine could stand alone, even though they may have rejected the monergistic view from which the doctrine was developed. So, OSAS is a logical necessity for the Calvinist, wheras others felt a need to hold to the view, "independent of its original and logical mooring."
Personally, I feel that if one rejects the root of TULIP system (TULI) there is little reason to hold on to the fruit of it (P). I do not find sufficient biblical justification for it, although I realize I likely hold the minority view.