Postmillenial Partial Preterism...What is it? A Victorious View of the Gospel.

[Truth7t7]

I'm just saying, if you are going to do it, don't bother being shallow about it. That's if you want to. Myself, I don't feel any need to try to justify my view to you, or to try to convince you of my view. I'm sure I wouldn't be successful in either case.

So, if you want to. You will not draw me into a discussion with those kinds of comments.

Much love!

Fact Is, You Cant Post Scripture To Prove A Pre-Trib Rapture, Because It Doesn't Exist

Wikipedia: John Nelson Darby (18 November 1800 – 29 April 1882) was an Anglo-Irish Bible teacher, one of the influential figures among the original Plymouth Brethren and the founder of the Exclusive Brethren. He is considered to be the father of modern Dispensationalism and Futurism. Pre-tribulation rapture theology was popularized extensively in the 1830s by John Nelson Darby and the Plymouth Brethren, and further popularized in the United States in the early 20th century by the wide circulation of the Scofield Reference Bible.

 

[Iconoclast]

"marks,
[I'm saying, the Bible speaks of the sun and moon and stars as the lights in the sky, and unless there is a particular reason to overturn that meaning, I say we hold to it.]

But I have shown at least five times where scripture indicates just such a good reason to consider what these passages are describing.
You have not dealt with them at all ,you just tried to brush them off

[And saying, I don't see how that could happen, so it must mean something else, I don't think that's really valid. I'd sooner change my concept of what is possible. I've not come to such an impasse myself. I'm pretty accepting of what I read in the Bible.]
. The links all point out biblical facts that you suggest do not mean anything?

 

[Iconoclast]

OK, thank you!! My mind feels pretty foggy some times.

:)

The Levitical sacrificial system was the Law of the land for Israel at that time. The "oikonomia", or "house law", or "economy", or " the way you run your household". This word is translated dispensation. The idea is from dispensing something. The oikonomia was the manner and means of providing for the needs of the household members.

Through the Levitical sacrificial system, grace through faith was dispensed to the Israelites. Now, grace through faith are dispensed without that Levitical sacrificial system. A new manner and means is in place for providing for our needs, grace through faith in Jesus Christ.

Acknowledging this change is the same thing as saying this is one dispensation, and that was an difference dispensation.

That one was grace served up to them via animal sacrifices, this one is better, and is served to us through Christ.

Much love!

Your post indicates you do not understand what is meant by dispensationalism

 

[Iconoclast]

God uses similar language often in scripture. It does not always describe a literal thing but is a symbol to indicate a literal thing different for the words used...Here for example men do not travail in birth...

Isaiah 13:8


8 And they shall be afraid: pangs and sorrows shall take hold of them; they shall be in pain as a woman that travaileth: they shall be amazed one at another; their faces shall be as flames.

9 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.

10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.


Jeremiah 4:31
For I have heard a voice as of a woman in travail, and the anguish as of her that bringeth forth her first child, the voice of the daughter of Zion, that bewaileth herself, that spreadeth her hands, saying, Woe is me now! for my soul is wearied because of murderers.

Jeremiah 13:21
What wilt thou say when he shall punish thee? for thou hast taught them to be captains, and as chief over thee: shall not sorrows take thee, as a woman in travail?

Jeremiah 6:24
We have heard the fame thereof: our hands wax feeble: anguish hath taken hold of us, and pain, as of a woman in travail.

Jeremiah 22:23
O inhabitant of Lebanon, that makest thy nest in the cedars, how gracious shalt thou be when pangs come upon thee, the pain as of a woman in travail!

Jeremiah 30:6
Ask ye now, and see whether a man doth travail with child? wherefore do I see every man with his hands on his loins, as a woman in travail, and all faces are turned into paleness?

Jeremiah 49:24
Damascus is waxed feeble, and turneth herself to flee, and fear hath seized on her: anguish and sorrows have taken her, as a woman in travail.

Jeremiah 50:43
The king of Babylon hath heard the report of them, and his hands waxed feeble: anguish took hold of him, and pangs as of a woman in travail.

Micah 4:10
Be in pain, and labour to bring forth, O daughter of Zion, like a woman in travail: for now shalt thou go forth out of the city, and thou shalt dwell in the field, and thou shalt go even to Babylon; there shalt thou be delivered; there the Lord shall redeem thee from the hand of thine enemies.

1 Thessalonians 5:3
For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

 

[Iconoclast]

Jeremiah 7:33
And the carcases of this people shall be meat for the fowls of the heaven, and for the beasts of the earth; and none shall fray them away.

Jeremiah 16:4
They shall die of grievous deaths; they shall not be lamented; neither shall they be buried; but they shall be as dung upon the face of the earth: and they shall be consumed by the sword, and by famine; and their carcases shall be meat for the fowls of heaven, and for the beasts of the earth.

Jeremiah 19:7
And I will make void the counsel of Judah and Jerusalem in this place; and I will cause them to fall by the sword before their enemies, and by the hands of them that seek their lives: and their carcases will I give to be meat for the fowls of the heaven, and for the beasts of the earth.

More examples of language used to describe judgement

 

[Iconoclast]

The sign of the Son of Man;

1]The location spoken of is Heaven, not just the sky.

2]It is not the sign in Heaven, but the Son of Man who is in Heaven.


The point is simply that this great judgment upon Israel, the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple, will be the sign that Jesus Christ is enthroned in Heaven at The Fathers right hand, ruling over the nations and bringing vengeance upon His enemies.

The Divinely ordained cataclysm of A.D. 70 revealed that Christ had taken the Kingdom from Israel and given it to the Church;
the desolation of the temple was the final sign that God had deserted it. and was dwelling in a new Temple, the Church.

David Chilton , Paradise Restored,100
Mt26
63 But Jesus held his peace, And the high priest answered and said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ, the Son of God.

64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

 

[marks]

Your post indicates you do not understand what is meant by dispensationalism

Perhaps not what you mean by it.

If you propose that being "dispensational" means that you follow some particular dispensationalist's model, then I'd suggest that maybe you misapply the meaning. Perhaps you'd care to offer more than your criticisms, and instead show what you think of as being "Dispensationalism".

Myself, I will stand by my explanation. This is what the Bible teaches.

Much love!

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Fact is, there is no physical kingdom on this earth seen in Revelation 20:1-6 as you claim, the scripture clearly describes this in the Lord's spiritual realm, Angel, Heaven, Devil, Satan, The Souls, The Dead, God, Christ, 100% Spiritual Realm

Fact is, there is no literal earthly time in the Lords Spiritual, One Day Is A Thousand Years, Be Not Ignorant

2 Peter 3:8KJV
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

In Love, Jesus Is The Lord

100% Spiritual Realm, No Literal Earthly Time

Revelation 20:1-6KJV
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

So then you believe when then allegorical 1,000 years is done and Satan is loosed from the abyss- he goes to heaven, deceives heavenly believers and makes war in heaven then. OK!

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Fact is, there is no literal earthly time in the Lords Spiritual, One Day Is A Thousand Years, Be Not Ignorant

2 Peter 3:8KJV
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Your ignorance is amazing. This is not a doctrine that shows spiritual days are 1,000 earthly years! but a METAPHOR showing the longsuffering of god with mortal men! That little word "as" in verse 8 lets us explicitly know it is not a literal comparison. but that takes learning grammar and keeping verses in context.

7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

There is no pre-trib rapture found in scripture as you claim, it's a fabrication of man, namely John N. Darby and Adulterer C.I. Scofield, the father and foundation of Dallas Theological through his prodigy in Lewis S. Chafer

C.I. Scofield promoted this teaching in his 1909 reference bible, better known a Dispensationalism

There is one resurrection of all, this takes place on the last day, at the second coming of Jesus Christ, John 5:28-29, John 6:39-40, 1 Corinthians 15:23-24, John 12:48

Actually it was first promoted by the Apostle Paul in 1 thess. 1:10

1 Thessalonians 1:10
And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

the place of torments and the lake of fire are never called the wrath of God in Scripture! However the 70th week of Daniel aka the tribulation is called WRATH numerous times in both the OT and NT. The bible is consistent. God is going to deliver the church from the events of the 70th week of Daniel. The only thing that those men you falsely accuse of grievous isn did is coin a term "rapture" to describe what Paul said will take place prior to the wrath to come--

Rev. 6:

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

 

[Truth7t7]

So then you believe when then allegorical 1,000 years is done and Satan is loosed from the abyss- he goes to heaven, deceives heavenly believers and makes war in heaven then. OK!

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

False claim in distraction

Satan is loosed towards the end of the tribulation, to go out and (Deceive The Nations) to the final battle on this earth

 

[Truth7t7]

Actually it was first promoted by the Apostle Paul in 1 thess. 1:10

1 Thessalonians 1:10
And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

the place of torments and the lake of fire are never called the wrath of God in Scripture! However the 70th week of Daniel aka the tribulation is called WRATH numerous times in both the OT and NT. The bible is consistent. God is going to deliver the church from the events of the 70th week of Daniel. The only thing that those men you falsely accuse of grievous isn did is coin a term "rapture" to describe what Paul said will take place prior to the wrath to come--

Rev. 6:

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

The church on earth will escape the wrath of God, as they are instructed to enter their dwelling and shut the door, just like the passover in Egypt

Isaiah 26:20-21KJV
20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.
21 For, behold, the Lord cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.

 

[Truth7t7]

Your ignorance is amazing. This is not a doctrine that shows spiritual days are 1,000 earthly years! but a METAPHOR showing the longsuffering of god with mortal men! That little word "as" in verse 8 lets us explicitly know it is not a literal comparison. but that takes learning grammar and keeping verses in context.

7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

One day is a thousand years, is doing nothing more than showing the reader, that there is no literal earthly time in the Lords spiritual, Jesus is the Alpha and Omega

 

[Truth7t7]

instead show what you think of as being "Dispensationalism".

Myself, I will stand by my explanation. This is what the Bible teaches.

Much love!

Two main foundations of dispensationalism is

1. A Pre-Trib Rapture

2. God has different covenants with Israel and the Church (Dual Covenant Theology)

 

[Ronald Nolette]

False claim in distraction

Satan is loosed towards the end of the tribulation, to go out and (Deceive The Nations) to the final battle on this earth

So you believe Satan is now bound in the abyss and we are living in the allegorical 1,000 years now from th e time Satan was abyssed?

Yes or NO.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

The church on earth will escape the wrath of God, as they are instructed to enter their dwelling and shut the door, just like the passover in Egypt

Isaiah 26:20-21KJV
20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.
21 For, behold, the Lord cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.

Except that is not what the bible says will happen in the rapture or the great snatching away!

13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

We do not escape byt going into hiding- but by being pulled off the earth to meet the Lord in the atmosphere.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

One day is a thousand years, is doing nothing more than showing the reader, that there is no literal earthly time in the Lords spiritual, Jesus is the Alpha and Omega

Except Peter is talking about stuff on earth- not in eternity-- Fail again because context doesn't matter to you.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Two main foundations of dispensationalism is

1. A Pre-Trib Rapture

2. God has different covenants with Israel and the Church (Dual Covenant Theology)

Those are subfoundations built on the main foundation after Jesus: A belief in the literal,historical, grammatical understanding of Scripture insted of the allegorical method of understanding Scripture.

thatr is why the Jews knoew fo an earthly kingdom for Israel, why the apostles asked the LKord before He left earth about said kingdom.

Haven't you ever found it odd that jesus did not tell them- "you guys are just wrong! There is no more kingdom on earth for Israel. those days are done and now it is all spiritual. When I return I won't set up an earthly kingdom, but do all the stuff I promised in the OT and the gospels and then whisk back up to heaven!"

But instead He told His clsest disciples, that that time was not in His hands but the Fathers hands! Sorry you do not think jesus said what He meant here!

 

[Truth7t7]

So you believe Satan is now bound in the abyss and we are living in the allegorical 1,000 years now from th e time Satan was abyssed?

Yes or NO.

Satan is "Currently" bound from "One Specific Purpose", And One Only?

"Deceive The Nations" To Battle

The Non-Literal 1,000 Years (Revelation) 20:1-6 Are Taking Place Now In The Lords Spiritual, And Will Cease At The Future Second Coming

If A Tribulation Saint Were To Die One Day Before The Second Coming, He Enters Into The Non-Literal 1,000 Year Reign

Many That Promote Millennialism Falsely Teach, Satan Cant Be Presently Bound Because Evil Exist In The World?

Satan Is Presently Bound As Is Clearly Seen In (Revelation) 20:7-8 Below That Interprets (Deceive The Nations) Is To Battle, Not General Evil In The World Presently.

Satan Is Loosed At The End Of The Tribulation When The 6th Vial Is Poured Out As Seen In (Revelation) 16:12, The Deception Is Devils In False Miracles Going Forth To The Kings Of The Earth, To Gather Them To The Final Battle

(Revelation) 20:1-9KJV
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

(Revelation) 16:12-14 & (Revelation) 20:7-8 Same Deception In Gathering The Nations To The Very Same Final Battle In "Parallel" Teachings Of The Same Event

(Revelation) 16:12-17KJV
12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.
13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.

 

[Truth7t7]

Except Peter is talking about stuff on earth- not in eternity-- Fail again because context doesn't matter to you.

Your claim is in "Error"

Peter is talking about the Lords spiritual realm of "No Time" Jesus is the Alpha-Omega

Revelation 20:1-6 represents the Lords spiritual realm, Angel,Heaven, Devil,Satan, The Souls,The Dead, God, Christ 100% spiritual

2 Peter 3:10-13KJV
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.