Praying for the Dead

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RedFan

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Many Protestants believe that prayer for the dead is pointless; that God’s judgment, be it salvation or damnation, is solely and unalterably based on what the deceased did or believed (I don’t want to get into the faith vs. works controversy here because it is irrelevant to the present question) while the person was alive. They insist that it is just too late to alter one’s ultimate judgment once the lungs breathe their last.

Other mainline Protestants tolerate the practice of praying for the dead, but downplay it. Martin Luther wrote: "As for the dead, since Scripture gives us no information on the subject, I regard it as no sin to pray with free devotion in this or some similar fashion: 'Dear God, if this soul is in a condition accessible to mercy, be thou gracious to it.' And when this has been done once or twice, let it suffice. (Luther’s Works, Vol. 37, p. 369)

The Augsburg Confession (Article XXIV, 94) notes: "Now, as regards the adversaries’ citing the Fathers concerning the offering for the dead, we know that the ancients speak of prayer for the dead, which we do not prohibit; . . ."

So, Luther and Ursinus seem to have left it up to the individual as to whether to pray for the dead, on grounds that Scripture neither commands nor forbids it.

Those who reject the efficacy of praying for the dead must square their point of view with 2 Tim. 1:16-18. It does seem likely that Onesiphorus was already dead when Paul wrote those words. (2 Tim 4:19 suggests this.) Why, then, would Paul pray for mercy on Onesiphorus’ soul? The typical Protestant explanation goes something like this:

Much controversy has raged around Paul’s cameo of Onesiphorus. Was he adorning the brow of a living man with a garland? Or was he placing a wreath upon the tomb of a saint? Some see in Paul’s reference to “the house of Onesiphorus” a proof for the lawfulness of prayers for the dead. But Paul’s language does not constitute a prayer, but only a wish or exclamation. The dead are beyond the influence of our intercessions. Onesiphorus - Lockyer's All the Men of the Bible - Bible Gateway

But to say that “the dead are beyond the influence of our intercessions” cuts against the tradition handed down to us by the early Church Fathers. That includes Augustine, judging by the prayer offered for his mother in his Confessions (“I know that she acted mercifully, and from the heart forgave her debtors their debts; do Thou also forgive her debts, whatever she contracted during so many years since the water of salvation. Forgive her, O Lord, forgive her, I beseech You; enter not into judgment with her.”) Logos Virtual Library: Saint Augustine: Confessions, IX, 13

It includes Cyril of Jerusalem, in his Lectures On the Mysteries (“For I know that many say, what is a soul profited, which departs from this world either with sins, or without sins, if it be commemorated in the prayer? For if a king were to banish certain who had given him offence, and then those who belong to them should weave a crown and offer it to him on behalf of those under punishment, would he not grant a remission of their penalties? In the same way we, when we offer to Him our supplications for those who have fallen asleep, though they be sinners, weave no crown, but offer up Christ sacrificed for our sins, propitiating our merciful God for them as well as for ourselves.”) Philip Schaff: NPNF2-07. Cyril of Jerusalem, Gregory Nazianzen - Christian Classics Ethereal Library

It includes John Chrysostom, in his Homily 3 on Philippians (“Not in vain did the Apostles order that remembrance should be made of the dead in the dreadful Mysteries. They know that great gain resulteth to them, great benefit; for when the whole people stands with uplifted hands, a priestly assembly, and that awful Sacrifice lies displayed, how shall we not prevail with God by our entreaties for them?”) Philip Schaff: NPNF1-13. Saint Chrysostom: Homilies on Galatians, Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, Thessalonians, Timothy, Titus, and Philemon - Christian Classics Ethereal Library

Over eighty such sources are collected in Boggis’ Praying for the Dead: An Historical Review of the Practice (1913). EIGHTY!

Is there something to this praying for the dead stuff, or is it all nonsense?
 

Desire Of All Nations

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It's all nonsense. 2 Tim. 1:16-18 is not proof that praying for the dead is biblical. All Paul was saying that he hopes that God will look favorably on Onesiphorus when the day of judgement comes since this man supported him(and possibly God's work) while he was in Ephesus.

It is not a wise move to appeal to the "church fathers'" writings to decide biblical matters because they were not apostles, ministers, or teachers in the true Church, nor were their words inspired by God. They were deceived individuals doing what the Bible calls following the dictates of their own evil imaginations. The whole "but the church fathers said" argument is the Orthodox Christian equivalent of the Orthodox Jews appealing to the oral traditions and laws of the Pharisees instead of the canonized scriptures.

Possessing ecclesiastical authority in this world's deceived churches isn't the same thing as possessing divine authority to preach or teach, and people really need to learn that there is a huge difference between the 2 things. No minister who is truly following God would be presumptuously making pronouncements as if people were supposed to believe them over what is taught in the Bible.
 
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RedFan

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It's all nonsense. 2 Tim. 1:16-18 is not proof that praying for the dead is biblical. All Paul was saying that he hopes that God will look favorably on Onesiphorus when the day of judgement comes since this man supported him(and possibly God's work) while he was in Ephesus.

It is not a wise move to appeal to the "church fathers'" writings to decide biblical matters because they were not apostles, ministers, or teachers in the true Church, nor were their words inspired by God. They were deceived individuals doing what the Bible calls following the dictates of their own evil imaginations. The whole "but the church fathers said" argument is the Orthodox Christian equivalent of the Orthodox Jews appealing to the oral traditions and laws of the Pharisees instead of the canonized scriptures.

Possessing ecclesiastical authority in this world's deceived churches isn't the same thing as possessing divine authority to preach or teach, and people really need to learn that there is a huge difference between the 2 things. No minister who is truly following God would be presumptuously making pronouncements as if people were supposed to believe them over what is taught in the Bible.


Totally agree that 2 Tim. 1:16-18 proves nothing (one way or the other) on the topic. It's too equivocal.

But I can't agree that the Church Fathers' views on the topic are irrelevant. I think Luther was correct that Scripture does not settle the issue either way -- which makes the traditions followed by the early Church worth considering. I would say the same about contemporaneous Jewish practices, if they prayed for the dead.
 

ScottA

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Many Protestants believe that prayer for the dead is pointless; that God’s judgment, be it salvation or damnation, is solely and unalterably based on what the deceased did or believed (I don’t want to get into the faith vs. works controversy here because it is irrelevant to the present question) while the person was alive. They insist that it is just too late to alter one’s ultimate judgment once the lungs breathe their last.

Other mainline Protestants tolerate the practice of praying for the dead, but downplay it. Martin Luther wrote: "As for the dead, since Scripture gives us no information on the subject, I regard it as no sin to pray with free devotion in this or some similar fashion: 'Dear God, if this soul is in a condition accessible to mercy, be thou gracious to it.' And when this has been done once or twice, let it suffice. (Luther’s Works, Vol. 37, p. 369)

The Augsburg Confession (Article XXIV, 94) notes: "Now, as regards the adversaries’ citing the Fathers concerning the offering for the dead, we know that the ancients speak of prayer for the dead, which we do not prohibit; . . ."

So, Luther and Ursinus seem to have left it up to the individual as to whether to pray for the dead, on grounds that Scripture neither commands nor forbids it.

Those who reject the efficacy of praying for the dead must square their point of view with 2 Tim. 1:16-18. It does seem likely that Onesiphorus was already dead when Paul wrote those words. (2 Tim 4:19 suggests this.) Why, then, would Paul pray for mercy on Onesiphorus’ soul? The typical Protestant explanation goes something like this:

Much controversy has raged around Paul’s cameo of Onesiphorus. Was he adorning the brow of a living man with a garland? Or was he placing a wreath upon the tomb of a saint? Some see in Paul’s reference to “the house of Onesiphorus” a proof for the lawfulness of prayers for the dead. But Paul’s language does not constitute a prayer, but only a wish or exclamation. The dead are beyond the influence of our intercessions. Onesiphorus - Lockyer's All the Men of the Bible - Bible Gateway

But to say that “the dead are beyond the influence of our intercessions” cuts against the tradition handed down to us by the early Church Fathers. That includes Augustine, judging by the prayer offered for his mother in his Confessions (“I know that she acted mercifully, and from the heart forgave her debtors their debts; do Thou also forgive her debts, whatever she contracted during so many years since the water of salvation. Forgive her, O Lord, forgive her, I beseech You; enter not into judgment with her.”) Logos Virtual Library: Saint Augustine: Confessions, IX, 13

It includes Cyril of Jerusalem, in his Lectures On the Mysteries (“For I know that many say, what is a soul profited, which departs from this world either with sins, or without sins, if it be commemorated in the prayer? For if a king were to banish certain who had given him offence, and then those who belong to them should weave a crown and offer it to him on behalf of those under punishment, would he not grant a remission of their penalties? In the same way we, when we offer to Him our supplications for those who have fallen asleep, though they be sinners, weave no crown, but offer up Christ sacrificed for our sins, propitiating our merciful God for them as well as for ourselves.”) Philip Schaff: NPNF2-07. Cyril of Jerusalem, Gregory Nazianzen - Christian Classics Ethereal Library

It includes John Chrysostom, in his Homily 3 on Philippians (“Not in vain did the Apostles order that remembrance should be made of the dead in the dreadful Mysteries. They know that great gain resulteth to them, great benefit; for when the whole people stands with uplifted hands, a priestly assembly, and that awful Sacrifice lies displayed, how shall we not prevail with God by our entreaties for them?”) Philip Schaff: NPNF1-13. Saint Chrysostom: Homilies on Galatians, Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, Thessalonians, Timothy, Titus, and Philemon - Christian Classics Ethereal Library

Over eighty such sources are collected in Boggis’ Praying for the Dead: An Historical Review of the Practice (1913). EIGHTY!

Is there something to this praying for the dead stuff, or is it all nonsense?
As long as it is "today" all prayers are included.
 

Ronald Nolette

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Many Protestants believe that prayer for the dead is pointless; that God’s judgment, be it salvation or damnation, is solely and unalterably based on what the deceased did or believed (I don’t want to get into the faith vs. works controversy here because it is irrelevant to the present question) while the person was alive. They insist that it is just too late to alter one’s ultimate judgment once the lungs breathe their last.

Other mainline Protestants tolerate the practice of praying for the dead, but downplay it. Martin Luther wrote: "As for the dead, since Scripture gives us no information on the subject, I regard it as no sin to pray with free devotion in this or some similar fashion: 'Dear God, if this soul is in a condition accessible to mercy, be thou gracious to it.' And when this has been done once or twice, let it suffice. (Luther’s Works, Vol. 37, p. 369)

The Augsburg Confession (Article XXIV, 94) notes: "Now, as regards the adversaries’ citing the Fathers concerning the offering for the dead, we know that the ancients speak of prayer for the dead, which we do not prohibit; . . ."

So, Luther and Ursinus seem to have left it up to the individual as to whether to pray for the dead, on grounds that Scripture neither commands nor forbids it.

Those who reject the efficacy of praying for the dead must square their point of view with 2 Tim. 1:16-18. It does seem likely that Onesiphorus was already dead when Paul wrote those words. (2 Tim 4:19 suggests this.) Why, then, would Paul pray for mercy on Onesiphorus’ soul? The typical Protestant explanation goes something like this:

Much controversy has raged around Paul’s cameo of Onesiphorus. Was he adorning the brow of a living man with a garland? Or was he placing a wreath upon the tomb of a saint? Some see in Paul’s reference to “the house of Onesiphorus” a proof for the lawfulness of prayers for the dead. But Paul’s language does not constitute a prayer, but only a wish or exclamation. The dead are beyond the influence of our intercessions. Onesiphorus - Lockyer's All the Men of the Bible - Bible Gateway

But to say that “the dead are beyond the influence of our intercessions” cuts against the tradition handed down to us by the early Church Fathers. That includes Augustine, judging by the prayer offered for his mother in his Confessions (“I know that she acted mercifully, and from the heart forgave her debtors their debts; do Thou also forgive her debts, whatever she contracted during so many years since the water of salvation. Forgive her, O Lord, forgive her, I beseech You; enter not into judgment with her.”) Logos Virtual Library: Saint Augustine: Confessions, IX, 13

It includes Cyril of Jerusalem, in his Lectures On the Mysteries (“For I know that many say, what is a soul profited, which departs from this world either with sins, or without sins, if it be commemorated in the prayer? For if a king were to banish certain who had given him offence, and then those who belong to them should weave a crown and offer it to him on behalf of those under punishment, would he not grant a remission of their penalties? In the same way we, when we offer to Him our supplications for those who have fallen asleep, though they be sinners, weave no crown, but offer up Christ sacrificed for our sins, propitiating our merciful God for them as well as for ourselves.”) Philip Schaff: NPNF2-07. Cyril of Jerusalem, Gregory Nazianzen - Christian Classics Ethereal Library

It includes John Chrysostom, in his Homily 3 on Philippians (“Not in vain did the Apostles order that remembrance should be made of the dead in the dreadful Mysteries. They know that great gain resulteth to them, great benefit; for when the whole people stands with uplifted hands, a priestly assembly, and that awful Sacrifice lies displayed, how shall we not prevail with God by our entreaties for them?”) Philip Schaff: NPNF1-13. Saint Chrysostom: Homilies on Galatians, Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, Thessalonians, Timothy, Titus, and Philemon - Christian Classics Ethereal Library

Over eighty such sources are collected in Boggis’ Praying for the Dead: An Historical Review of the Practice (1913). EIGHTY!

Is there something to this praying for the dead stuff, or is it all nonsense?


It is all nonsense! We must be born again in this life! there is no do overs once dead! A person either goes to heaven or to the place of torments awaiting the lake of fire. No crosiing over as the true story of Lazarus and the Rich man shows. there is a great gulf fixed so people cannot cross over.
 

farouk

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It is all nonsense! We must be born again in this life! there is no do overs once dead! A person either goes to heaven or to the place of torments awaiting the lake of fire. No crosiing over as the true story of Lazarus and the Rich man shows. there is a great gulf fixed so people cannot cross over.
@Ronald Nolette George Whitefield often preached on "Ye must be born again".

One day, someone asked him: "Mr. Whitefield, Why is it that you keep preaching on 'Ye must be born again'?"

George Whitefield replied, "It's because ye must be born again!"
 
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GISMYS_7

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Praying for the dead is not a biblical concept. Our prayers have no bearing on someone once he or she has died. The reality is that, at the point of death, one’s eternal destiny is confirmed. Either he is saved through faith in Christ and is in heaven where he is experiencing rest and joy in God’s presence, or he is in torment in hell. His choice!
 

Ronald Nolette

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@Ronald Nolette George Whitefield often preached on "Ye must be born again".

One day, someone asked him: "Mr. Whitefield, Why is it that you keep preaching on 'Ye must be born again'?"

George Whitefield replied, "It's because ye must be born again!"


At a missions conference about 8 years ago, I played George Whitfield and preached one of his messages. It was awesome. I live the simplicity of the answer!
 
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Ronald David Bruno

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Many Protestants believe that prayer for the dead is pointless; that God’s judgment, be it salvation or damnation, is solely and unalterably based on what the deceased did or believed (I don’t want to get into the faith vs. works controversy here because it is irrelevant to the present question) while the person was alive. They insist that it is just too late to alter one’s ultimate judgment once the lungs breathe their last.

Other mainline Protestants tolerate the practice of praying for the dead, but downplay it. Martin Luther wrote: "As for the dead, since Scripture gives us no information on the subject, I regard it as no sin to pray with free devotion in this or some similar fashion: 'Dear God, if this soul is in a condition accessible to mercy, be thou gracious to it.' And when this has been done once or twice, let it suffice. (Luther’s Works, Vol. 37, p. 369)

The Augsburg Confession (Article XXIV, 94) notes: "Now, as regards the adversaries’ citing the Fathers concerning the offering for the dead, we know that the ancients speak of prayer for the dead, which we do not prohibit; . . ."

So, Luther and Ursinus seem to have left it up to the individual as to whether to pray for the dead, on grounds that Scripture neither commands nor forbids it.

Those who reject the efficacy of praying for the dead must square their point of view with 2 Tim. 1:16-18. It does seem likely that Onesiphorus was already dead when Paul wrote those words. (2 Tim 4:19 suggests this.) Why, then, would Paul pray for mercy on Onesiphorus’ soul? The typical Protestant explanation goes something like this:

Much controversy has raged around Paul’s cameo of Onesiphorus. Was he adorning the brow of a living man with a garland? Or was he placing a wreath upon the tomb of a saint? Some see in Paul’s reference to “the house of Onesiphorus” a proof for the lawfulness of prayers for the dead. But Paul’s language does not constitute a prayer, but only a wish or exclamation. The dead are beyond the influence of our intercessions. Onesiphorus - Lockyer's All the Men of the Bible - Bible Gateway

But to say that “the dead are beyond the influence of our intercessions” cuts against the tradition handed down to us by the early Church Fathers. That includes Augustine, judging by the prayer offered for his mother in his Confessions (“I know that she acted mercifully, and from the heart forgave her debtors their debts; do Thou also forgive her debts, whatever she contracted during so many years since the water of salvation. Forgive her, O Lord, forgive her, I beseech You; enter not into judgment with her.”) Logos Virtual Library: Saint Augustine: Confessions, IX, 13

It includes Cyril of Jerusalem, in his Lectures On the Mysteries (“For I know that many say, what is a soul profited, which departs from this world either with sins, or without sins, if it be commemorated in the prayer? For if a king were to banish certain who had given him offence, and then those who belong to them should weave a crown and offer it to him on behalf of those under punishment, would he not grant a remission of their penalties? In the same way we, when we offer to Him our supplications for those who have fallen asleep, though they be sinners, weave no crown, but offer up Christ sacrificed for our sins, propitiating our merciful God for them as well as for ourselves.”) Philip Schaff: NPNF2-07. Cyril of Jerusalem, Gregory Nazianzen - Christian Classics Ethereal Library

It includes John Chrysostom, in his Homily 3 on Philippians (“Not in vain did the Apostles order that remembrance should be made of the dead in the dreadful Mysteries. They know that great gain resulteth to them, great benefit; for when the whole people stands with uplifted hands, a priestly assembly, and that awful Sacrifice lies displayed, how shall we not prevail with God by our entreaties for them?”) Philip Schaff: NPNF1-13. Saint Chrysostom: Homilies on Galatians, Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, Thessalonians, Timothy, Titus, and Philemon - Christian Classics Ethereal Library

Over eighty such sources are collected in Boggis’ Praying for the Dead: An Historical Review of the Practice (1913). EIGHTY!

Is there something to this praying for the dead stuff, or is it all nonsense?

Martin Luther ALSO BELIEVED in a place called Purgatory. Read his 95 Theses, I was shocked. He was a Catholic monk. His document started a gradual Reformation over the next 100 years and beyond. The RCC made a fortune by cashing in on people’s hopes of a life in the hereafter, selling indulgenges - even salvation if you can fathom that.
Belief in Purgatory would therefore support praying for the dead.
We pray at funerals for the God to have mercy when Judgment day comes. And this is also for us, a release of any ill feelings towards that person. And we just don't know with certain people if they are saved or not.
I believe at death, the person's fate is fixed, they are either saved or not. Jesus said, there is one life, one death and THEN THE JUDGMENT. Entering into a spiritual and timeless realm as one leaves the physical realm, judgment doesn't wait for those who do not have Christ.
Jesus is the Author of our faith in the here and now ... in our lives. He doesn't continue someone's script beyond death. Actually, He says the reprobates are already judged.
 
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