Pre-Trib Rapture Danger To Your Soul

[marks]

1 Thessalonians 1:10
And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

The Lake of Fire is never called wrath, so it isn't about delivering us from eternal doom. It is about the church being spared from the tribulation.

What is the wrath this verse is speaking of?

John 3:36 KJV
He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Much love!

 

[Johann]

What is the wrath this verse is speaking of?

John 3:36 KJV
He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Much love!

The wrath of God (ὀργὴ τοῦ Θεοῦ)
Both ὀργὴ and θυμός are used in the New Testament for wrath or anger, and without any commonly observed distinction. Ὁργη denotes a deeper and more permanent sentiment; a settled habit of mind; while θυμός is a more turbulent, but temporary agitation.

Both words are used in the phrase wrath of God, which commonly denotes a distinct manifestation of God's judgment (Rom_1:18; Rom_3:5; Rom_9:22; Rom_12:19). Ὁργὴ (not θυμός) also appears in the phrase the wrath to come (Mat_3:7; Luk_3:7; 1Th_2:16, etc.). Compare wrath of the Lamb (Rev_6:16).

Abideth (μένει)
The present tense. As the believer hath life, so the unbeliever hath wrath abiding on him. He lives continually in an economy which is alienated from God, and which, in itself, must be habitually the subject of God's displeasure and indignation.
MV

Transliteration: orgē
Morphology: N-NFS
Noun - Nominative Feminine Singular
Strong's no.: G3709 (ὀργή)
Meaning: Anger, wrath, passion; punishment, vengeance.


wrath = [permanent] wrath. Greek orge; as in Mat_3:7. Luk_3:7; 1Th_2:16, &c. Not thumos, which = [temporary] wrath.


This is the only place in the Gospel where it occurs; but in Rev_6:16, we have “the wrath of the Lamb”; also Joh_16:19, “the wine of the fury of His wrath”; also Joh_14:10, Joh_11:18, Joh_19:15. In Paul “the coming wrath” is frequently alluded to; as also “the day of wrath,” “the children” or “vessels” of wrath. On the refuser of Christ the wrath of God, instead of removing from him, abides, μένει; not, as Theophylact reads, μενεῖ, “will abide”.


Shalom
Johann

 

[Johann]

What is the wrath this verse is speaking of?

John 3:36 KJV
He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Much love!

The wrath of God (ὀργὴ τοῦ Θεοῦ)
Both ὀργὴ and θυμός are used in the New Testament for wrath or anger, and without any commonly observed distinction. Ὁργη denotes a deeper and more permanent sentiment; a settled habit of mind; while θυμός is a more turbulent, but temporary agitation.

Both words are used in the phrase wrath of God, which commonly denotes a distinct manifestation of God's judgment (Rom_1:18; Rom_3:5; Rom_9:22; Rom_12:19). Ὁργὴ (not θυμός) also appears in the phrase the wrath to come (Mat_3:7; Luk_3:7; 1Th_2:16, etc.). Compare wrath of the Lamb (Rev_6:16).

Abideth (μένει)
The present tense. As the believer hath life, so the unbeliever hath wrath abiding on him. He lives continually in an economy which is alienated from God, and which, in itself, must be habitually the subject of God's displeasure and indignation.
MV

Transliteration: orgē
Morphology: N-NFS
Noun - Nominative Feminine Singular
Strong's no.: G3709 (ὀργή)
Meaning: Anger, wrath, passion; punishment, vengeance.


wrath = [permanent] wrath. Greek orge; as in Mat_3:7. Luk_3:7; 1Th_2:16, &c. Not thumos, which = [temporary] wrath.


This is the only place in the Gospel where it occurs; but in Rev_6:16, we have “the wrath of the Lamb”; also Joh_16:19, “the wine of the fury of His wrath”; also Joh_14:10, Joh_11:18, Joh_19:15. In Paul “the coming wrath” is frequently alluded to; as also “the day of wrath,” “the children” or “vessels” of wrath. On the refuser of Christ the wrath of God, instead of removing from him, abides, μένει; not, as Theophylact reads, μενεῖ, “will abide”.


Shalom
Johann

 

[marks]

Abideth (μένει)
The present tense. As the believer hath life, so the unbeliever hath wrath abiding on him. He lives continually in an economy which is alienated from God, and which, in itself, must be habitually the subject of God's displeasure and indignation.
MV

Good point!

Much love!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Pre-tribs refer to a grand total of one person from before the 18th century who they think may have taught pre-trib (which is highly debatable, at best) and they think this is convincing evidence that pre-trib must be true? You have to be kidding me.

 

[David in NJ]

Pre-tribs refer to a grand total of one person from before the 18th century who they think may have taught pre-trib (which is highly debatable, at best) and they think this is convincing evidence that pre-trib must be true? You have to be kidding me.

It must be true then.................lol

 

[Behold]

The Lake of Fire is never called wrath,

Thats because the lake of fire is a situation, Its not God Himself.

God has the Wrath.

The Lake of fire is the eternal situation that comes to those who are under the Wrath of God.

THAT situation can also be called "The 2nd Death". as that is a " eternal situation" that exists for all the never born again who are under "God's Wrath".

Think of it like this.... Reader

A Judge pronounces a Sentence of Death for the Murderer.
So, there is the Wrath of the Law come down from the JUDGE....., that will be finalized by a situation, : Execution.

So, going to hell, then the lake of fire,...... that is all a part of existing IN the 2nd Death, .. and this is where the Wrath of God has been executed upon those who are "under the Wrath of God".

See it?

There is God's Wrath, and Then there is God's Judgement.

Wrath, then Judgement.

The Judgement, is the execution of the Wrath... and this is ETERNAL Damnation, that is the 2nd Death.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Yes, also feel our brotherhood, regardless of our personal views on some things. It the core, we are one, I know that! Much love, brother!

At the end of the day, I'm all about exactly what does the Bible say. And of course we need the Holy Spirit to understand what we read. But that understanding will NEVER be at odds with exactly what is written.

What does this even mean? When there is apocalyptic text, hyperbole and symbolism in scripture, does your understanding come from "exactly what is written"? No, right? It should come from the Holy Spirit. So, what does it mean to get understanding from the Holy Spirit regarding, say, what a symbol means, but not have that understanding "be at odds with exactly what is written"?

I think the way God hides understanding in the Bible is that men read the words, but fail to appreciate exactly what they say. So they have a "spiritual meaning", and suddenly their compass of off by 5 degrees. And you know what happens then! So I've come to be very particular about that.

Much love!

Again, what does this even mean? Does scripture itself promote the literal, "it means what it says" approach that you use to interpret it? No, it does not.

Please read the following passage and then ask yourself if your current approach lines up with what it says:

1 Corinthians 2:10 these are the things God has revealed to us by his Spirit. The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. 11 For who knows a person’s thoughts except their own spirit within them? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12 What we have received is not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may understand what God has freely given us. 13 This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual realities with Spirit-taught words. 14 The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit. 15 The person with the Spirit makes judgments about all things, but such a person is not subject to merely human judgments, 16 for, “Who has known the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?” But we have the mind of Christ.

 

[marks]

Again, what does this even mean? Does scripture itself promote the literal, "it means what it says" approach that you use to interpret it? No, it does not.

It's language. Interpret it as you normally do language. The Holy Spirit will NOT contradict Himself. So if you think the Holy Spirit is telling you something that means you should disregard what is written, I'd be real careful about that.

Much love!

 

[Johann]

It's language. Interpret it as you normally do language. The Holy Spirit will NOT contradict Himself. So if you think the Holy Spirit is telling you something that means you should disregard what is written, I'd be real careful about that.

Much love!

Think this might be helpful-

ESCHATOLOGY–Why do Christians Have So Many Dogmatic Interpretations of Revelation?

Eschatology -- Special Topic by Dr. Bob Utley, professor of hermeneutics (retired).

www.freebiblecommentary.org

 

[Johann]

Think this might be helpful-

ESCHATOLOGY–Why do Christians Have So Many Dogmatic Interpretations of Revelation?

Eschatology -- Special Topic by Dr. Bob Utley, professor of hermeneutics (retired).

www.freebiblecommentary.org

It must be said that the different schools of modern eschatological interpretation all contain half truths. They explain and interpret well some texts. The problem lies in consistency and balance. Often there is a set of presuppositions which use the biblical text to fill in the pre-set theological skeleton. The Bible does not reveal a logical, chronological, systematic eschatology. It is like a family album. The pictures are true, but not always in order, in context, in a logical sequence. Some of the pictures have fallen out of the album and later generations of family members do not know exactly how to put them back. The key to proper interpretation of Revelation is the intent of the original author as revealed in his choice of literary genre. Most interpreters try to carry their exegetical tools and procedures from other genres of the NT into their interpretations of Revelation. They focus on the OT instead of allowing the teachings of Jesus and Paul to set the theological structure and let Revelation act as illustrative. See Fee and Stuart, How To Read the Bible for All Its Worth, pp. 249-264.

I must admit that I approach my commentary on the Revelation with some fear and trepidation, not because of the curse of Rev. 22:18-19, but because of the level of controversy the interpretation of this book has caused and continues to cause among God's people. I love God's revelation. It is true when all men are liars (cf. Rom. 3:4; see SPECIAL TOPIC: THE BIBLE (its uniqueness and inspiration)! Please use my exegetical commentary as an attempt to be thought provoking and not definitive, as a sign post and not a road map, as a "what if," not a "thus says the Lord." I have come face to face with my own inadequacies, biases, and theological agenda. I have also seen those of other interpreters (see Four Views on the Book of Revelation, 1998, and The Meaning of the Millennium, several authors, 1977). It almost seems that people find in Revelation what they expect to find. The genre lends itself to abuse! However, it is in the Bible for a purpose. Its placement as the concluding "word" is not by accident. It has a message from God to His children of each and every generation. God wants us to understand! Let us join hands, not form camps; let us affirm what is clear and central, not all that may be, might be, could be true. God help us all!

I have a deep respect for someone who can say-"I don't know it all"-especially on eschatology-like my pastor-and not take a dogmatic stance-but I'm out of this thread-too much disagreements.
I have also learned-from experience-the majority don't "read" properly, speed or skim reading is the norm.
Shalom
Johann.

 

[David in NJ]

It's language. Interpret it as you normally do language. The Holy Spirit will NOT contradict Himself. So if you think the Holy Spirit is telling you something that means you should disregard what is written, I'd be real careful about that.

Much love!

marks said: "The Holy Spirit will NOT contradict Himself."

We must all agree with this!!!

The Holy Spirit will never tell you one thing and then say the opposite to me = God is not the author of confusion.

We read the SAME Holy Scriptures and we have been baptized into One Body by One Spirit under One Gospel.

There is no difference between Jew & Gentile before God our Father.

 

[marks]

Think this might be helpful-

ESCHATOLOGY–Why do Christians Have So Many Dogmatic Interpretations of Revelation?

Eschatology -- Special Topic by Dr. Bob Utley, professor of hermeneutics (retired).

www.freebiblecommentary.org

Thank you! This will take me some time to read carefully. I've just skimmed it, and I'm looking forward to digging in.

Much love!

 

[Johann]

Thank you! This will take me some time to read carefully. I've just skimmed it, and I'm looking forward to digging in.

Much love!

I'll go the extra mile with you and do anything to assist you in your walk with Christ Jesus-brothers for life.
Johann.

 

[teamventure]

Then you reveal you have not... read Apostle Paul's simple warnings in 2 Corinthians 11, nor Jesus' warnings in Matthew 24:23-26. So what are you, too chicken to check out those Scriptures? Are you AFRAID they might expose your beloved pre-trib rapture false prophets you have put your trust in? (And I am mocking them, not you. I want you to come to understanding God's Word as written, and not put blind trust in those men.)


A Revelation by Lord Jesus:

Rev 13:4-9
4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme His name, and His tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.

7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

9 If any man have an ear, let him hear.
KJV

The "dragon" title is simply another name for Satan per Rev.12:9.

Verse 7-8 is especially revealing what he is going to do at the end of this world, PRIOR to Christ's coming to gather us. "All that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."

Christ's Church will still... be here on earth to go through that. That is especially why Lord Jesus gave His Church His Book of Revelation, so we'd prepare for these things towards the end just before His future return.

You are making connections where there aren't any.
The rapture when it happens whether pre- mid- or post- will look nothing like the antichrist.
When the antichrist recieves power he will be standing on the earth. When the rapture happens we will join Christ in the clouds. Those two events don't look anything like eachother it is impossible to confuse one with the other to the point that even a child would know the difference.

 

[marks]

I have also learned-from experience-the majority don't "read" properly, speed or skim reading is the norm.

That, combined with a lack of critical reasoning.

Much love!

 

[teamventure]

I realize that, which is why those on the false Pre-trib theory are AFRAID to read what God's written Word actually says on this matter. And thus "strong delusion" is prepared by God for those who receive not the love of the Truth (i.e., His Word as written).

The truth is the core principles of the gospel. Differing on the rapture is not the same issue. The strong delusion will go towards those who reject Jesus, not those who have a wrong timing of the rapture. Once again you are reaching.

 

[Johann]

That, combined with a lack of critical reasoning.

Much love!

Amen marks.
Johann

 

[teamventure]

You're not serious at all. What do you think I have been presenting in posts, messages from Disneyland? Are you that BLINDED to God's written Word?

And it is God's written Word that I have posted which you are mocking with saying it's "falacies and presumption".

You CANNOT find even ONE Scripture written in God's Word that supports a rapture of the Church prior to the "great tribulation".

That's not the point. Differing on the rapture is one thing, but you have turned it into a salvation issue which it is not.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

It's language. Interpret it as you normally do language. The Holy Spirit will NOT contradict Himself. So if you think the Holy Spirit is telling you something that means you should disregard what is written, I'd be real careful about that.

What does this even mean? Why would the Holy Spirit ever tell me to disregard what is written? That is ridiculous.

If I don't take the beast with seven heads and ten horns to be referencing a literal beast with seven literal heads and ten literal horns, am I disregarding what is written? Is the Holy Spirit then telling me to disregard what is written? Explain what that even means.