I think that the Historical Grammatical hermaneutic is the best to use. To interpret the Bible according to how they used the words when these things were spoken.
Much love!
Pre-Trib Rapture Danger To Your Soul
- Thread starter Davy
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Much love!
I came to your thread claiming your logic is flawed. That because I think the rapture will be pre-trib that I will worship the AC. That is non-sequitor.
Much love!
And that is an example of your presumption.
OK, this won't get any better.
Nevermind.
Much love!
Your posts reveal exactly what I said. Sorry I don't have time to REMIND you of what you already said.
Whooh Hooh, Hullabaloo! Big words, "Historical Grammatical hermaneutic"!!!
Those kind of words are meaningless if one cannot first understand the simplicity of written Bible Scripture. And some here reveal their lack of paying attention in public school with reading comprehension, so some actually need to go back to grammar school.
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
Brother marks, i love speaking with you, even when we differ, because of your love for Christ and for the Brethren.
So, even if i strongly suggest you open up more to the Spirit = i know you will not take offense because it is written:
"as iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another"
It is the Holy SPIRIT who moved upon the chosen men/elect who penned down the Holy Scriptures.
Context is good but context without the Spirit is religion and death.
The Bible has One Author with One Message for One Salvation for all nations.
The false pre-trib rapture theory is indeed a FALSE HOPE.
It promotes COWARDS who are afraid to make a stand for Lord Jesus during the coming "great tribulation" He warned us about.
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
Peace Davy,
i would not call our Brothers and Sisters in Christ cowards since that would be sin to judge the Body of Christ.
Only God can see our hearts and He alone is the Author and Finisher of our faith.
James 5:9 - "Do not grumble against one another, brethren, lest you be condemned. Behold, the Judge is standing at the door!"
Let the love of Christ have the preeminence in our hearts.
Pre-trib's Dispensationalist theories are false also, not the outlines of Old Testament history and New Testament times with The Gospel, but particularly about the gathering to Jesus and His future reign with His elect.
The false pre-trib rapture doctrine wrongly teaches that Jesus comes to rapture His Church to Heaven prior to the "great tribulation". And then at His return, 'somehow'... He still reigns FROM HEAVEN WITH THE CHURCH IN HEAVEN too, while the nation of Israel is separately re-established upon the earth.
What does God's Word actually teach though?
God's written Word instead teaches that Lord Jesus comes AFTER the great tribulation to gather His faithful Church, both the asleep saints He brings with Him from Heaven, and the saints still alive on earth gathered to Him, and them. And then... He with all His saints go to the Mount of Olives east of Jerusalem, ON EARTH, to begin His reign over all nations with His assigned "rod of iron". His faithful elect then reign there with Him. (Matthew 24; Mark 13: Zechariah 14).
And per the Book of Ezekiel, which the last 9 chapters are all for AFTER Christ's future return with His elect Church, they reign from the 'beloved city' on earth, the Jerusalem that will come down to the earth out of Heaven (Rev.21; 22). And it is written that ONLY Christ's faithful elect will be allowed to approach Him and serve Him at His table. All that is to happen ON THIS EARTH.
The false pre-trib rapture doctrine wrongly teaches that Jesus comes to rapture His Church to Heaven prior to the "great tribulation". And then at His return, 'somehow'... He still reigns FROM HEAVEN WITH THE CHURCH IN HEAVEN too, while the nation of Israel is separately re-established upon the earth.
What does God's Word actually teach though?
God's written Word instead teaches that Lord Jesus comes AFTER the great tribulation to gather His faithful Church, both the asleep saints He brings with Him from Heaven, and the saints still alive on earth gathered to Him, and them. And then... He with all His saints go to the Mount of Olives east of Jerusalem, ON EARTH, to begin His reign over all nations with His assigned "rod of iron". His faithful elect then reign there with Him. (Matthew 24; Mark 13: Zechariah 14).
And per the Book of Ezekiel, which the last 9 chapters are all for AFTER Christ's future return with His elect Church, they reign from the 'beloved city' on earth, the Jerusalem that will come down to the earth out of Heaven (Rev.21; 22). And it is written that ONLY Christ's faithful elect will be allowed to approach Him and serve Him at His table. All that is to happen ON THIS EARTH.
Here is even another hard Truth directly from the Bible Scriptures as written, which the false pre-trib rapture doctors falsely claim was not written for Christ's Church:
Christ's Olivet Discourse is about 7 main SIGNS of the end that Jesus gave about the end leading up to His future coming. He gave those when asked by His disciples when the end of the world would be, and what would be the sign of His coming. The Matthew 24, and Mark 13, and Luke 21 cover those SIGNS of the end.
But lo and behold, many brethren are not aware those 7 SIGNS Jesus warned His Church about in His Olivet Discourse are ALSO the SEALS of Revelation 6!
And just WHO did Lord Jesus give His Revelation to?
Rev 1:1-6
1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto Him, to shew unto His servants things which must shortly come to pass; and He sent and signified it by His angel unto His servant John:
2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.
3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.
4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from Him Which is, and Which was, and Which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before His throne;
5 And from Jesus Christ, Who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto Him That loved us, and washed us from our sins in His own blood,
6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and His Father; to Him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
KJV
So the false ideas the pre-trib rapture preachers teach that Jesus' Olivet discourse is NOT for Christ's Church, but for Jews only, again is more of their BLASPHEMY against Lord Jesus and His Revelation SPECIFICALLY GIVEN TO HIS CHURCH about the events of the END leading up to Jesus' future return.
Christ's Olivet Discourse is about 7 main SIGNS of the end that Jesus gave about the end leading up to His future coming. He gave those when asked by His disciples when the end of the world would be, and what would be the sign of His coming. The Matthew 24, and Mark 13, and Luke 21 cover those SIGNS of the end.
But lo and behold, many brethren are not aware those 7 SIGNS Jesus warned His Church about in His Olivet Discourse are ALSO the SEALS of Revelation 6!
And just WHO did Lord Jesus give His Revelation to?
Rev 1:1-6
1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto Him, to shew unto His servants things which must shortly come to pass; and He sent and signified it by His angel unto His servant John:
2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.
3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.
4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from Him Which is, and Which was, and Which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before His throne;
5 And from Jesus Christ, Who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto Him That loved us, and washed us from our sins in His own blood,
6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and His Father; to Him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
KJV
So the false ideas the pre-trib rapture preachers teach that Jesus' Olivet discourse is NOT for Christ's Church, but for Jews only, again is more of their BLASPHEMY against Lord Jesus and His Revelation SPECIFICALLY GIVEN TO HIS CHURCH about the events of the END leading up to Jesus' future return.
My advise to brethren that may be preaching the false pre-trib rapture doctrines from men to congregations...
Stop preaching that false pre-trib rapture doctrine. Admit Christ's Doctrine that He taught instead to the congregation, even if the elders remove you from preaching at that church.
It is much better that you face ridicule NOW than to lose your soul when Lord Jesus returns and finds you have misled congregations to unknowingly bow to the false-Christ who comes first to claim he is Lord Jesus.
Stop preaching that false pre-trib rapture doctrine. Admit Christ's Doctrine that He taught instead to the congregation, even if the elders remove you from preaching at that church.
It is much better that you face ridicule NOW than to lose your soul when Lord Jesus returns and finds you have misled congregations to unknowingly bow to the false-Christ who comes first to claim he is Lord Jesus.
Yes, also feel our brotherhood, regardless of our personal views on some things. It the core, we are one, I know that! Much love, brother!
At the end of the day, I'm all about exactly what does the Bible say. And of course we need the Holy Spirit to understand what we read. But that understanding will NEVER be at odds with exactly what is written.
I think the way God hides understanding in the Bible is that men read the words, but fail to appreciate exactly what they say. So they have a "spiritual meaning", and suddenly their compass of off by 5 degrees. And you know what happens then! So I've come to be very particular about that.
Much love!
Hate to say it to a brother, but that in bold you have yet to prove, because of your support of the false pre-trib rapture theory from men, which is NOWHERE written in God's Word.
So let's be honest now, and not try to fool the Biblically illiterate here that may not yet understand what God's Word as written on the matter actually teaches.
Scripture no where states exactly when the rapture will occur. Many equate the rapture with the gathering of the elect in Matthew 24, however, that causes too many conflicts with other Scriptures.
One of these is Matthew 25, the judgment of the nations. The fact that there are gathered the elect in ch. 24, and that there are righteous gathered in ch 25 shows that neither can be the current gentile church.
If the church is gathered in ch 24, then who are the righteous in ch 25? And if the church is gathered in ch 25, why divide by works? They would be known by their relationship with Christ. And who are gathered in ch 24?
The correct interpretation - the only interpretation plausible in that day - is that Jesus prophesied the gathering of Israel to the promised land, and then the gathering of the gentiles for judgment. This was what was prophesied in the OT, and Jesus reaffirmed it.
Now . . . I've posted in some shorthand, we're both Bible literate, right? But if you want references, let me know. If there is something I'm saying that you don't understand, ask the question. If you have a refutation, feel free of course!
But I'm only interested in polite, reasonable conversation. If you get personal again, I'm done, and it will be from your choosing to get personal.
Do you understand the argument that I've laid out showing the Church is not involved in either gathering when Jesus comes? I want to make sure you understand the argument I'm making before you respond to it.
Much love!
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
Well it does take careful looking at passages, but the Scriptures do state that the rapture will occur before the 70th week of Daniel which we commonly call the tribulation.
1 Thessalonians 1:10
And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.
The Lake of Fire is never called wrath, so it isn't about delivering us from eternal doom. It is about the church being spared from the tribulation.
there are many names for the 70th week of Daniel in the OT and God showed the two purposes for the 70th week or the tribulation period.
1. To punish unbelievers
2. to prepare Israel as a nation to receive her Messiah.
Behold
Well-Known Member
Ronald, are you on Marijuana Gummies for pain?
READ more carefully, next time...
Listen,
the verse i posted says that God's Wrath, remains on the UNBELIEVERS.
"its a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the LIVING GOD"< ...= having died as never born again : A Christ Rejector.
GRACE ambassador
Well-Known Member
op: pre-trib belief dangerous for my soul?
Not in the least! Because of belief in:
God's ALL-Sufficient BLOOD!! = NO DANGER to my soul!!!
However, lack of belief of:
God's Great GRACE Departure! Could be dangerous to my:
"good works" at Judgment (1 Corinthians 3:8-15)
Amen.
Not in the least! Because of belief in:
God's ALL-Sufficient BLOOD!! = NO DANGER to my soul!!!
However, lack of belief of:
God's Great GRACE Departure! Could be dangerous to my:
"good works" at Judgment (1 Corinthians 3:8-15)
Amen.
Is that so? I've thought up to now that this verse could be speaking of the wrath during the 70th week, or the wrath of final judgment. So now I've got some studying to do!
Much love!
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