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Preachers Are Not Pastors!

Discussion in 'Christian Debate Forum' started by charlesj, Sep 19, 2010.

  1. charlesj

    charlesj Member

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    Preachers ARE NOT Pastors. The New Testament does not refer to its evangelists or preacher as pastors.
    This is a DENOMINATIONAL misuse of the term. Nor is there a difference between an evangelist and a gospel preacher, a man who preachers for a local church as Timothy did in Ephesus.




    The ONE place where the Greek “POIMEN” is translated “pastors” (plural) in the English N.T. is Eph 4:11.

    “ And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;…”



    There is a very clear line of distinction between evangelists and pastors.



    An evangelist is a preacher and a pastor is an elder. This Greek word translated “pastor” is always in the plural in the New Testament. An elder can be a preacher, but not every preacher is qualified to be an elder. Again, elders in each assembly have to be more than one. We have no new covenant teaching or example that tells us otherwise.

    Each assembly in the first century, if they had qualified men, had elders, deacons and a minister. They didn’t have any other church government except for Jesus Christ as their head.



    Today, you have “priests, popes, archbishops, etc. etc.” Their names are legion. They are referred to as “father, priest, reverend, pastor, etc)

    They have left the New Covenant teachings of Christ.



    Three Greek words describe an elder:



    Presbuteros – translated “presbyter.”

    Episkopos – translated “bishop” or “overseer.”

    Poimen – translated “pastor” or “shepherd.”



    IN acts 20:17-28 all three Greek words are used to refer to the same group of men – elders. Eldership is a “work,” not an office.



    Notice, Paul “called the elders of the Ephesus assembly.” In context, verses 17 through 28 are speaking to these same group of men (elders) in Ephesus.



    17 And from Miletus he sent to Ephesus, and called the elders (presbuteros) of the church.

    18 And when they were come to him, he said unto them, Ye know, from the first day that I came into Asia, after what manner I have been with you at all seasons,

    19 Serving the Lord with all humility of mind, and with many tears, and temptations, which befell me by the lying in wait of the Jews:

    20 And how I kept back nothing that was profitable unto you, but have shewed you, and have taught you publickly, and from house to house,

    21 Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.

    22 And now, behold, I go bound in the spirit unto Jerusalem, not knowing the things that shall befall me there:

    23 Save that the Holy Ghost witnesseth in every city, saying that bonds and afflictions abide me.

    24 But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God.

    25 And now, behold, I know that ye all, among whom I have gone preaching the kingdom of God, shall see my face no more.

    26 Wherefore I take you to record this day, that I am pure from the blood of all men.

    27 For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God.

    28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, (episkopos) to feed (poimen) the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.



    Verse 17 Paul calls to them “elders in the church” at Ephesus.

    The same verse says that they met him at Miletus.

    Beginning at verse 18 the apostle addresses the elders and his address is recorded through verse 35.


    In verse 28 Paul is yet speaking to these elders and charges them: “take heed unto yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit hath made you bishops.” Notice carefully, the apostle address the ELDERS and says that th Holy Spirit made them BISHOPS. Thus elders and bishops are the same thing. An elder (Presbuteros) is the same as a bishop (episkopos). (same work in the assembly)



    Further, to the elder, the bishops, Paul continues to say that they are to “feed the church of the Lord” (Acts 20:28) What are they to do? They are to “FEED” the church. This word “feed” is the Greek word POIMAINO. It is the VERB form of the word POIMEN which is translated “pastor” or “shepherd.” The verb is also translated “pastor” or “shepherd,” and here it is translated “feed.”



    Therefore, shepherds shepherd flocks, and pastors pastor sheep. The noun and the verb can be translated in the same way.



    You might say, “feeders feed. But the point is that to “feed” is actually to “pastor,” or to “shepherd,” and this is what the apostle tells the elders or the bishops to do.

    The elders (PRESBUTEROS) or bishops (EIPSKOPOS) are to feed (POIMAINO) the church. All three Greek words are not to be distinguished from each other.



    Episkopos is a compound Greek word with “epi” means “over” and “skopos” – to see, this is where we get our English word “scope” like for a rifle.



    Also, in 1 Peter 5:1,2 we see all three Greek words used again.



    1 Peter 5:1-2 [sup]KJV [/sup]1 Peter 5:1 The elders (presbuteros) which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder(sumpresbuteros, = “fellow elder”) , and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed: [sup]2[/sup] Feed (poimaino) the flock of God which is among you, taking the

    oversight (episkopeo) thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind;



    In Titus 1:5-7 you see two of the Greek words used with eldership duties.



    5 For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders (presbuteros) in every city, as I had appointed thee:

    6 If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly.

    7 For a bishop (episkopos) must be blameless, as the steward of God; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre;



    Paul left Titus in Crete and told him to setup “elders” in the assembly. Then he told Titus how to pick them from among the assembly. They must be blameless, only have one wife, faithful children etc. The reason that these elders are to be blameless etc. is because a bishop (elder) must be blameless doing a work for God, not selfwilled, no hot temper, not a heavy drinker of wine etc.



    The point I want you to see is what is an elder, what he is called and his work, that is, his duties.



    Today, the religious world makes “offices” and changes the names of this duty the first century assembly had. (Notice, I use the word “assembly” instead of “church” as the Protestant and Catholic organizations give you the wrong idea of the use of this Greek word translated “church or assembly” in the New Testament.)





    May you be blessed as you study His Word,

    Your servant in Christ,

    Charles Jemeyson

    [email protected]

    San Antonio, Texas
     
  2. Selene

    Selene New Member

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    Hello Charles,

    The word Pope only means "Father." That is all. The Pope is the Bishop of Rome. There is nothing wrong with calling a bishop or a priest "Father." Jesus did not meant it literally when He said "Call no one on earth your Father." Why? Because His Apostles were using the word "Father" as shown in the Scriptures below.

    Romans 4:16 Therefore [it is] of faith, that [it might be] by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

    James 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, offering up Isaac his son upon the altar?

    St. Paul also described himself as a "father" to the Thessalonians in the following verse:

    1 Thessalonians 2:10-11 Ye [are] witnesses, and God [also], how holily and justly and unblameably we behaved ourselves among you that believe: As ye know how we exhorted and comforted and charged every one of you, as a father [doth] his children.

    Thus, we are following the Bible when we call our bishops and priests "Father." And again, the word "Pope" means "Father." That is all that it means.


    Bishops (episcopoi) have the care of multiple congregations and appoint, ordain, and discipline priests and deacons. They sometimes appear to be called "evangelists" in the New Testament. Examples of first-century bishops include Timothy and Titus (1 Tim. 5:19–22; 2 Tim. 4:5; Titus 1:5).

    Priests (presbuteroi) are also known as "presbyters" or "elders." In fact, the English term "priest" is simply a contraction of the Greek word presbuteros. They have the responsibility of teaching, governing, and providing the sacraments in a given congregation (1 Tim. 5:17; Jas. 5:14–15).

    Deacons (diakonoi) are the assistants of the bishops and are responsible for teaching and administering certain Church tasks, such as the distribution of food (Acts 6:1–6).

    In the apostolic age, the terms for these offices were still somewhat fluid. Sometimes a term would be used in a technical sense as the title for an office, sometimes not. This non-technical use of the terms even exists today, as when the term is used in many churches (both Protestant and Catholic) to refer to either ordained ministers (as in “My minister visited him”) or non-ordained individuals. (In a Protestant church one might hear “He is a worship minister,” while in a Catholic church one might hear “He is an extraordinary minister of Holy Communion.”)

    Iin the apostolic age Paul sometimes described himself as a diakonos ("servant" or "minister";. 2 Cor. 3:6, 6:4, 11:23; Eph. 3:7), even though he held an office much higher than that of a deacon, that of apostle.

    Similarly, on one occasion Peter described himself as a "fellow elder," [1 Pet. 5:1] even though he, being an apostle, also had a much higher office than that of an ordinary elder.

    The term for bishop, episcopos ("overseer"), was also fluid in meaning. Sometimes it designated the overseer of an individual congregation (the priest), sometimes the person who was the overseer of all the congregations in a city or area (the bishop or evangelist), and sometimes simply the highest-ranking clergyman in the local church—who could be an apostle, if one were staying there at the time.

    Although the terms "bishop," "priest," and "deacon" were somewhat fluid in the apostolic age, by the beginning of the second century they had achieved the fixed form in which they are used today to designate the three offices whose functions are clearly distinct in the New Testament.

    The early Church Fathers recognized all three offices and regarded them as essential to the Church’s structure. Especially significant are the letters of Ignatius, Bishop of Antioch, who traveled from his home city to Rome, where he was executed around A.D. 110. On the way he wrote letters to the churches he passed. Each of these churches possessed the same threefold ministry. Without this threefold ministry, Ignatius said, a group cannot be called a church.

    I am sorry to say, but you misinterpret the Bible. God did create office duties in His Church both in the Old Testament and in the New Testament. Below is what Jesus said about the chair of Moses:

    Matthew 23:2 "The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses seat; therefore do whatever they teach you and follow it

    As you can see from Sacred Scripture, Jesus mentioned the Seat of Moses and told His disciples to follow what the Pharisees teach. However, Jesus goes on to say NOT to do what the Pharisees do.....only to follow what they teach. Why? Because the teachings passed down was always true, despite that the Pharisees were hypocrites. Today, we Catholics do not follow the seat of Moses. We follow the seat of Peter, which Christ instituted in His Church. Furthermore, when the Bible says that the Bishops are to rule over the Church of God, that is not only a duty, but an office. A ruler is an official position just like a Head of State.

    In Christ,
    Selene


     
  3. charlesj

    charlesj Member

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    Hello Selene:

    You are not a “nun” are you?



    Anyway, I am not going to spend the time needed sitting in front of this computer and going into detail each of your arguments.



    You said, “The early Church Fathers recognized all three offices and regarded them as essential to the Church’s structure. Especially significant are the letters of Ignatius, Bishop of Antioch, who traveled from his home city to Rome, where he was executed around A.D. 110. On the way he wrote letters to the churches he passed. Each of these churches possessed the same threefold ministry. Without this threefold ministry, Ignatius said, a group cannot be called a church.”



    When you leave the New Covenant writings, which are inspired, you start to error. When you start changing the government of the assembly and add to it, you error. Making someone a “pope” is an error. I’ve shown you in Acts 20 where all three Greek words that are used for the work of an elder is one and the same. An elder is also called a bishop. (It’s a work, not an office)

    The early assemblies (Book of Acts) had elders, deacons and a minister. If they had no one qualified for an elder they only had a minister.



    I meet with a group of people and we call ourselves Christians. We had elders and deacons. (I said “had, because two elders died) There are groups like this all over San Antonio and the world who meet on the Lord’s Day, first day of the week. We are autonomous. We do not tell anyone else how to worship or carry on the Lord’s work, nor does anyone else tell us how to worship. We have not “central headquarters,” only Jesus Christ as our Head.

    The early assemblies were not an organization like a company with a CEO. Each assembly was autonomous.

    We call no one “reverend, father, pastor, etc.” There is only one Father, One who is Reverend. (The work of an elder is to “pastor,” that is, to feed the flock.)



    You cannot leave the New Covenant writings and use the “Church Fathers” to justify your changing the Bible names of its leaders. These were probably very good men, but they were not inspired writers as we have in the New Covenant. (I bet you they would “turn over in their grave” if they knew we called them “Church Fathers.”)



    It was good to hear from you again.

    I meant to ask you about some birds on Guam. I told you I almost got orders to Guam. A lot of my buddies went there and wrote me about some birds that would try to land and as they landed they would skid into their barracks. Do you know what birds I am talking about?



    Anyway, you have a good day.



    May His Word be in your heart.

    Your servant in Messiah,

    Charles Jemeyson

    cjemeys[email protected]

    San Antonio, Texas



    “The sum of His Word is Truth” - Ps 119:160

     
  4. charlesj

    charlesj Member

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  5. Selene

    Selene New Member

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    Hello Charles,

    Within the early Church the Apostles exercised the regulative power with which Christ had endowed them. It was no chaotic mob, but a true society possessed of a structured life, and organized in various orders. The evidence shows the twelve to have possessed (a) a power of jurisdiction, in virtue of which they wielded a legislative and judicial authority, and a magisterial office to teach the Divine revelation entrusted to them.

    Thus (a) we find Paul authoritatively prescribing for the order and discipline of the churches. He does not advise; he directs (1 Corinthians 11:34; 16:1; Titus 1:5). He pronounces judicial sentence (1 Corinthians 5:5; 2 Corinthians 2:10), and his sentences, like those of other Apostles, receive at times the solemn sanction of miraculous punishment (1 Timothy 1:20; Acts 5:1-10). In like manner he bids his delegate Timothy hear the causes even of priests, and rebuke, in the sight of all, those who sin (1 Timothy 5:19 sq.). With no less definiteness does he assert that the Apostolate carries with it a doctrinal authority, which all are bound to recognize. God has sent them, he affirms, to claim "the obedience of faith" (Romans 1:5; 15:18). Further, his solemnly expressed desire, that even if an angel from heaven were to preach another doctrine to the Galatians than that which he had delivered to them, he should be anathema (Galatians 1:8), involves a claim to infallibility in the teaching of revealed truth.

    While the whole Apostolic College enjoyed this power in the Church, Peter always appears in that position of primacy which Christ assigned to him. It is Peter who receives into the Church the first converts, alike from Judaism and from heathenism (Acts 2:41; 10:5 sq.), who works the first miracle (Acts 3:1 sqq.), who inflicts the first ecclesiastical penalty (Acts 5:1 sqq.). It is Peter who casts out of the Church the first heretic, Simon Magus (Acts 8:21), who makes the first Apostolic visitation of the churches (Acts 9:32), and who pronounces the first dogmatic decision (Acts 15:7). So indisputable was his position that when Paul was about to undertake the work of preaching to the heathen the Gospel which Christ had revealed to him, he regarded it as necessary to obtain recognition from Peter (Galatians 1:18). More than this was not needful: for the approbation of Peter was definitive.

    The evidence for the existence of a local ministry is plentiful in the later Epistles of St. Paul (Philippians, 1 and 2 Timothy, and Titus). The Epistle to the Philippians opens with a special greeting to the bishops and deacons. Those who hold these official positions are recognized as the representatives in some sort of the Church.

    In the Pastoral Epistles the new situation appears even more clearly. The purpose of these writings was to instruct Timothy and Titus regarding the manner in which they were to organize the local Churches. We find the Churches governed by a hierarchical organization of bishops, sometimes also termed presbyters, and deacons. That the terms bishop and presbyter are synonymous is evident from Titus 1:5-7: "I left thee in Crete, that thou shouldest . . . ordain priests in every city . . . For a bishop must be without crime." These presbyters form a corporate body (1 Timothy 4:14), and they are entrusted with the twofold charge of governing the Church (1 Timothy 3:5) and of teaching (1 Timothy 3:2; Titus 1:9). The selection of those who are to fill this post does not depend on the possession of supernatural gifts. It is required that they should not be unproved neophytes, that they should be under no charge, should have displayed moral fitness for the work, and should be capable of teaching. (1 Timothy 3:2-7; Titus 1:5-9) The appointment to this office was by a solemn laying on of hands (1 Timothy 5:22). Some words addressed by St. Paul to Timothy, in reference to the ceremony as it had taken place in Timothy's case, throw light upon its nature. "I admonish thee", he writes, "that thou stir up the grace (charisma) of God, which is in thee by the laying on of my hands" (2 Timothy 1:6). The rite is here declared to be the means by which a charismatic gift is conferred; and, further, the gift in question, like the baptismal character, is permanent in its effects. The recipient needs but to "waken into life" [anazopyrein] the grace he thus possesses in order to avail himself of it. It is an abiding endowment. There can be no reason for asserting that the imposition of hands, by which Timothy was instructed to appoint the presbyters to their office, was a rite of a different character, a mere formality without practical import.

    There is also mention of presbyters at Jerusalem at a date apparently immediately subsequent to the dispersion of the Apostles (Acts 11:30; cf. 15:2; 16:4; 21:18). Again, we are told that Paul and Barnabas, as they retraced their steps on their first missionary journey, appointed presbyters in every Church (Acts 14:22). So too the injunction to the Thessalonians (1 Thessalonians 5:12) to have regard to those who are over them in the Lord (proistamenoi (literally their boss); cf. Romans 12:6) would seem to imply that there also Paul had invested certain members of the community with a pastoral charge.

    Still more explicit is the evidence contained in the account of St. Paul's interview with the Ephesian elders (Acts 20:17-23). It is told that, sending from Miletus to Ephesus, he summoned "the presbyters of the Church", and in the course of his charge addressed them as follows: "Take heed to yourselves and to the whole flock, wherein the Holy Ghost has placed you bishops to tend [poimainein] the Church of God" (20:28). St. Peter employs similar language: "The presbyters that are among you, I beseech, who am myself also a presbyter . . . tend [poimainein] the flock of God which is among you." These expressions leave no doubt as to the office designated by St. Paul, when in Ephesians 4:11, he enumerates the gifts of the Ascended Lord as follows: "He gave some apostles, and some prophets, and other some evangelists, and other some pastors and doctors [tous de poimenas kai didaskalous]. The Epistle of St. James provides us with yet another reference to this office, where the sick man is bidden send for the presbyters of the Church, that he may receive at their hands the rite of unction (James 5:14).

    It remains to consider whether the so-called "monarchical" episcopate was instituted by the Apostles. Besides establishing a college of presbyter-bishops, did they further place one man in a position of supremacy, entrusting the government of the Church to him, and endowing him with Apostolic authority over the Christian community? Even if we take into account the Scriptural evidence alone, there are sufficient grounds for answering this question in the affirmative.

    From the time of the dispersion of the Apostles, St. James appears in an episcopal relation to the Church of Jerusalem (Acts 12:17; 15:13; Galatians 2:12). In the other Christian communities the institution of "monarchical" bishops was a somewhat later development. At first the Apostles themselves fulfilled, it would seem, all the duties of supreme oversight. They established the office when the growing needs of the Church demanded it. The Pastoral Epistles leave no room to doubt that Timothy and Titus were sent as bishops to Ephesus and to Crete respectively. To Timothy full Apostolic powers are conceded. Notwithstanding his youth he holds authority over both clergy and laity. To him is confided the duty of guarding the purity of the Church's faith, of ordaining priests, of exercising jurisdiction. Moreover, St. Paul's exhortation to him, "to keep the commandment without spot, blameless, unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ" shows that this was no transitory mission. A charge so worded includes in its sweep, not Timothy alone, but his successors in an office which is to last until the Second Advent. At the Council of Chalcedon, the Church of Ephesus counted a succession of twenty-seven bishops commencing with Timothy (Mansi, VII, 293; cf. Eusebius, Church History III.4-5).

    These are not the sole evidences which the New Testament affords of the monarchical episcopate. In the Apocalypse the "angels" to whom the letters to the seven Churches are addressed are almost certainly the bishops of the respective communities. Some commentators, indeed, have held them to be personifications of the communities themselves. But this explanation can hardly stand. St. John, throughout, addresses the angel as being responsible for the community precisely as he would address its ruler. Moreover, in the symbolism of chapter 1, the two are represented under different figures: the angels are the stars in the right hand of the Son of Man; the seven candlesticks are the image which figures the communities. The very term angel, it should be noticed, is practically synonymous with apostle, and thus is aptly chosen to designate the episcopal office.

    Again the messages to Archippus (Colossians 4:17; Philemon 2) imply that he held a position of special dignity, superior to that of the other presbyters. The mention of him in a letter entirely concerned with a private matter, as is that to Philemon, is hardly explicable unless he were the official head of the Colossian Church. We have therefore four important indications of the existence of an office in the local Churches, held by a single person, and carrying with it Apostolical authority. Nor can any difficulty be occasioned by the fact that as yet no special title distinguishes these successors of the Apostles from the ordinary presbyters. It is in the nature of things that the office should exist before a title is assigned to it. The name of apostle, we have seen, was not confined to the Twelve. St. Peter (1 Peter 5:1) and St. John (2 and 3 John 1:1) both speak of themselves as presbyters". St. Paul speaks of the Apostolate as a diakonia. A parallel case in later ecclesiastical history is afforded by the word pope. This title was not appropriated to the exclusive use of the Holy See till the eleventh century. Yet no one maintains that the supreme pontificate of the Roman bishop was not recognized till then. It should cause no surprise that a precise terminology, distinguishing bishops, in the full sense, from the presbyter-bishops, is not found in the New Testament.

    The conclusion reached is put beyond all reasonable doubt by the testimony of the sub-Apostolic Age. This is so important in regard to the question of the episcopate that it is impossible entirely to pass it over. It will be enough, however, to refer to the evidence contained in the epistles of St. Ignatius, Bishop of Antioch, himself a disciple of the Apostles. In these epistles (about A.D. 107) he again and again asserts that the supremacy of the bishop is of Divine institution and belongs to the Apostolic constitution of the Church. He goes so far as to affirm that the bishop stands in the place of Christ Himself. "When ye are obedient to the bishop as to Jesus Christ," he writes to the Trallians, "it is evident to me that ye are living not after men, but after Jesus Christ. . . be ye obedient also to the presbytery as to the Apostles of Jesus Christ" (Letter to the Trallians 2). He also incidentally tells us that bishops are found in the Church, even in "the farthest parts of the earth" (Letter to the Ephesians 3) It is out of the question that one who lived at a period so little removed from the actual Apostolic Age could have proclaimed this doctrine in terms such as he employs, had not the episcopate been universally recognized as of Divine appointment.

    It has been seen that Christ not only established the episcopate in the persons of the Twelve but, further, created in St. Peter the office of supreme pastor of the Church. Early Christian history tells us that before his death, he fixed his residence at Rome, and ruled the Church there as its bishop. It is from Rome that he dates his first Epistle, speaking of the city under the name of Babylon, a designation which St. John also gives it in the Apocalypse (c. xviii). At Rome, too, he suffered martyrdom in company with St. Paul, A.D. 67. The list of his successors in the see is known, from Linus, Anacletus, and Clement, who were the first to follow him, down to the reigning pontiff. The Church has ever seen in the occupant of the See of Rome the successor of Peter in the supreme pastorate.

    In Christ,
    Selene
     
  6. marksman

    marksman My eldest granddaughter showing the result of her

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    Some good points and some not so good points. I will make some comments as we go.

    Thankyou Charles and I will throw in one more thing. Not once will you find a so called pastor being brought in from outside the local church to be in charge of it.
     
  7. marksman

    marksman My eldest granddaughter showing the result of her

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    Hallo Selene. I would like to respond to your original post as it seems you have done what most do and that is make the scripture fit their theology and practice rather than make their theology and practice fit the scriptures.

    I am not going to respond to every point you have made, rather I will illustrate by some of your glaringly obvious manipulation of scripture.

    The father bit is a classic example as none of the verses you quoted have anything to do with what you are claiming.

    For example Abraham being the father of all has nothing whatsoever to do with the RC church claiming that scripture supports calling priests father.

    James 2:21 is the same. Abraham our father, but no one else.

    1 Thessalonians 2: 10-11 Paul was not calling himself a father. He was using the term as a metaphor to illustrate what he was saying.

    The idea that bishops were called evangelists in some cases is laughable in respect of the verses you quote. In 1 Tim 5 the word evangelist does not appear. 2 Tim 4:5 Paul is telling Timothy to do the work of an evangelist. Timothy was an apostle. Titus 1:5 talks about ordaining Elders. Evangelists are never mentioned.

    The idea of a high ranking clergyman is a figment of one’s imagination. All the teaching of Jesus and the apostles, especially Paul was not about ranking, it was about serving. To be great you had to be a servant Jesus said.

    Both Catholic Church and the protestant ones have adopted the world’s methods in having your star performers who are looked up to because they are a cut above the rest. Mainly promotion within the denomination comes because you say all the right things and do all the right things. Not because of any spiritual depth or evidence of servant hood.

    You have not realized that there were no offices in the NT church, only ministries and Moses chair is totally irrelevant to the topic. Whether you were an apostle, a prophet, a shepherd, a deacon etc every one was a diakonos, a ministry of service to the body of Christ. So I am sorry to say that it is you that has misinterpreted the scriptures.

    I would like to add that I am not someone who just likes to give his opinion. I have four degrees from thelogical college and university and have chosen the church as my particular area of interest and study. To that end I have made an indepth study of the scriptures on this topic mainly using the original Greek to be followed by a study of the history of the church which I am still doing. Having discovered that the church today bears no resemblance to what is taught in scripture, I then embarked upon a search for what others had to say about the topic. In all I consulted over 40 different authors. Without fail, they came to the same conclusions as I did.

    This all happened when I was committed to the non scriptual church and defended it. I have since decided that I prefer to follow scripture rather than denominatinal traditions, especially when they clearly contradict God's word.

    Blessings
     
  8. Selene

    Selene New Member

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    Hello Marksman,

    Many times, non-Catholics would often criticize us for calling our priests "father," which they say goes against scripture. Yet, they don't see that in that same passage, Jesus also says not to call anyone "teacher." It seems that many non-Catholics object to the Catholic custom of calling their priests "father:" and forget that in that same passage below, Jesus also said "call no man teacher. And many non-Catholics don't object to using the word "teacher." Now, why is that?

    Matthew 23:8-10 As for you, do not be called 'Rabbi.'(teacher) You have but one teacher, and you are all brothers. Call no one on earth your father; you have but one Father in heaven. Do not be called 'master'; you have but one master, the Messiah.

    When Jesus said not to call anyone "master," "father," and "teacher," He was no longer addressing the crowd. He was speaking those words ONLY to the Apostles.....hence the words "As for you." He specifically addressed those words only to His Apostles because they are to always remember that they should never use THEIR titles with pride. The Apostles have these titles as "father" and "teacher" as well as "master." In fact, St. Paul called himself a teacher despite the fact that Jesus said "call no man teacher." So, yes, St. Paul referred to himself as a teacher (See 2 Timothy 1:11) and as a father (See 1 Corinthians 4:14-15). Therefore, calling our bishops and priests "father" is in accordance with Sacred Scripture.

    The fact that St. Paul called himself a teacher and a father is proof that what Jesus said in Matthew is not to be taken literally. If we read the entire passage, Jesus is simply instructing His Apostles to be careful not to use these titles of "master," "father," and "teacher" with pride. In other words, they are to be used, so long as it is not done with pride.

    You say that using the word "father" in referring to Abraham does not support our views. My brother, I will remind you that the Scripture says "call no one ON EARTH your father. because you have one Father IN HEAVEN." Abraham is not the only person who was called "father" by the Apostles. If you read the Acts of the Apostles, you will see that the Apostles also use the word "father" all the time in referring to men on earth (Acts 7:2, Acts 7:38-39, Acts 7:44-45, Acts 7:51-53). All these verses in Acts show that it was not just Abraham who was called "father." In fact, in Acts 7:2 we see how St. Stephen addressed all those who sat in the Jewish Sanhedrin before he was stoned to death. St. Stephen addressed these men as 'brothers" and "fathers."

    In my last post, I already gave biblical evidence showing that within the early Church, the Apostles did exercise a regulative power with which Christ had endowed them. It was no chaotic mob, but a true society possessed of a structured life, and organized in various orders. The evidence shows the twelve to have possessed a power of jurisdiction, in virtue of which they wielded a legislative and judicial authority, and a magisterial office to teach the Divine revelation entrusted to them.

    You say that there is no office in the New Testament? The New Testament says that there is. The office of bishop is clearly mentioned. The Pope is the Bishop of Rome and that is an office. God bless.

    1 Timothy 3:1 A faithful saying: if a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.

    In Christ,
    Selene
     
  9. marksman

    marksman My eldest granddaughter showing the result of her

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    As yet I have not heard anyone called Teacher Priest as you call your priests Father Priest. What I do hear constantly is “welcome to Brother Derek Prince who has a ministry of teaching” which is quite correct according to scripture as teaching is a ministry given by Christ (Eph 4:11)

    No where in scripture is anyone referred to as Father Along. It is an invention of the catholic church to give its people in charge more kudos.

    Mat 23:1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples………No indication he limited his comments to the apostles.

    They did not answer to any title. Paul was not the Apostle Paul, he was Paul the apostle. First is a title, second is a ministry.

    I am a school teacher but I am not addressed as Teacher Johnson I am Ray Johnson who teaches students. You have failed to distinguish between a title and a job description.

    Paul was a father because he had brought many into the kingdom of God so he is their spiritual father in that respect. He was not addressed as Father like a priest is.

    Not so as they are not being apostolic and bringing people into the Kingdom of God.

    A typical interpretation by the catholic church to legitimize what is not in the scriptures.

    The reason that he addressed them that way was the fact that they were someone’s brother or father. The Greek for this word is father, parent.

    What were the orders called?

    No its not. The correct translation is position, not office. The pope does not fulfill the requirements. He falls down on the following..he is not the husband of one wife; he is greedy for money bearing in mind the vast wealth of the CC; he doesn’t rule his own house well because he doesn’t have children; he doesn’t have good testimony outside judging by the criticisms against him and if he is the bishop of Rome why does he control every catholic parish in the world. No one in the NT church had that authority.
     
  10. Selene

    Selene New Member

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    The fact is....Jesus said "call no man teacher," yet, that is something you don't object to. If you're going to object because Jesus said, "call no man father," you should also be objecting to the word "teacher."

    My brother, did you not notice in the Scripture that Jesus says, not to call any man a "teacher," "master," and "father." Teacher (which you say is merely a job description) is placed in the same category as "master" and "father" (which you define as title). According to Scripture, Jesus defined all these three "master," "teacher," and "father" as titles. Jesus said not to call any man on earth "teacher," "master," and "father." He placed all these three together. The question is.....why do you ONLY object to the word "father" and not "teacher?" After all, Jesus did NOT say, 'call no priest "teacher." He said call no MAN "father," "teacher," and "master." And by the way, the Latin word for "Doctor" also means teacher, but I don't hear any objection of using that word "doctor" as well.

    Our priests are also spiritual father. St. Paul referred to himself as a teacher and a father. Those were his titles. All the Apostles were priests.

    You say that the correct translation is position, not office? I see.....So instead of accepting written Scripture as it is in the Bible, you decided to change the Scripture so it would fit into your own theology and practice. ;)

    God gave His Church that kind of authority in the same way as He did with His chosen people. If God can lead a group of Hebrew slaves out of Egypt and turn them into the soverign nation of Israel, then surely God can also turn His chosen Church into the soverign nation of Vatican City. God bless.

    In Christ,
    Selene
     
  11. marksman

    marksman My eldest granddaughter showing the result of her

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    As I said we do not call anyone teacher.

    Once again we do not call anyone teacher.

    To those he had brought into the kingdom of God as I have said before. And they were not titles. They were ministries. None of the apostles were priests because the word was never used in that context. The most used word was “diakonos” which means servant.

    I have not changed the scripture if you care to read what I said. Using the original Greek is not changing scripture. Perhaps you didn’t know that.

    The Vatican city a sovereign nation the same as the Jews? Doh !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
     
  12. a3m24ie

    a3m24ie New Member

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    We're all supposed to preach the gospel! :) So... we're all preachers! (Should be)
     
  13. Selene

    Selene New Member

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    Hello Marksman,

    My brother, you seem upset. There is no reason for you to be upset in a discussion. What you say is incorrect. You do call certain people "teachers." The people who work in schools are teachers. When kids come home from school, sometimes parents ask their kids about their school and teachers. When a teacher from a school calls up a parent, they identify themselves as the math teacher or science teacher of their child and then proceed to inform the parent of the academic problems they are having with their child. A child is taught who their mother and "father" is. In school, administrators and teachers even ask the child the contact numbers of their mothers and fathers. You use these words regularly; yet, you criticize Catholics for calling their priests "father?" Jesus said, "call no MAN father." Yet, you see it a problem when Catholics call their priests and bishops "fathers" but it's okay for you to call your dad "father?"

    Remember that it was you who accused Catholics of not following Scripture simply because YOU took Jesus' words in Matthew LITERALLY. As I have shown you through Scripture, Jesus' words were never meant to be taken literally because Jesus and His Apostles used the words "father" and "teacher" all the time. Therefore, your accusations are groundless. As a matter of fact, your claim that the Apostles used "father" ONLY in reference to Abraham is false and incorrect.

    However, since YOU take Jesus' words in Matthew literally, the question that should then be asked is.....why are YOU going against Scripture as you interpreted it? Since you believed that Jesus' words in Matthew is meant literally, then why do you use the words "father," "teacher" and "doctor" (which also means teacher). That is the question. Jesus said, "call no MAN father. Because you take His words literally, YOU should be the one who should not be using the words "father," "teacher," or "master" in reference to ANYONE at all. According to how you interpret Scripture, YOU should not even be calling your dad "father." In fact, you would not even be using the word "teacher" in reference to those teaching in school. Neither would you use the word "doctor" because that also means teacher. Jesus said not to call anyone "Rabbi" because you only have one teacher. "Rabbi" means teacher. So, why are you calling your doctor "doctor" which also means teacher? A professor in a university is always addressed as Dr. such as Dr. Jones. You should not be using the word "doctor" since you take Jesus' words in Matthew literally.

    I know that the Greek word was translated into the English word of "office" because that is THE correct English word that should be used for THE Greek word according to the biblical experts. Are you going to tell me that you know better than those group of experts who spent countless years of study in translating the Bible from Greek to English?

    Of course, Vatican City is a soverign nation just like Israel is a soverign nation. Did you not know that the Pope is a Head of State just like the Prime Minister of Israel is a Head of State? Moses led a group of Hebrew slaves out of Egypt. They were God's chosen people, and to His chosen people, God made them into the nation of Israel. Vatican City is also a soverign city-state and the Pope is the Head of State of Vatican City. Look it up in an encyclopedia and it will tell you so. Of all the Christian denominations, only the Catholic Church became a soverign nation. God bless.

    From the Old Testament:
    Exodus 19:6 And you shall be to me a priestly kingdom, and a holy nation. Those are the words thou shalt speak to the children of Israel.

    From the New Testament:
    1 Peter 2:9
    But you are a chosen generation, a kingly priesthood, a holy nation, a purchased people: that you may declare his virtues, who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

    In Christ,
    Selene

     
  14. marksman

    marksman My eldest granddaughter showing the result of her

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    I am not going beyond this first paragraph because you are descending into the ridiculous. I thought we were discussing the church. If we are, then talking about teachers in school is pathetic and clutching at straws.

    If we are, we do not call anyone Teacher Jones as I have said many times but it obvious you cannot comphehend this so we will leave it at that.

    By the way, I don't get upset
     
  15. Selene

    Selene New Member

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    My brother, we were discussing the Scriptures. Don't you remember what you posted? You accused me of making Scripture fit into my theology and practice. Below is what you stated:

    I followed Scripture as does my Church. We have never fit Scripture into our theology and practice. Our theology and practice is aligned with Scripture. :) The fact that the Apostles called Abraham, Moses, and the rest of the Prophets "fathers" shows that Jesus' words in Matthew were never taken literally by the Apostles. Jesus said, "call no MAN father." He also said, call no man Rabbi for you only have one teacher. Rabbi means teacher. Well, doctor also means teacher. I know that university professors are called "doctors" and you don't object to it. Calling someone Dr. Jones is the same thing as Teacher Jones.

    In Christ,
    Selene

     
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