Predestination, All Things are Determined by God, Even the Outcome of a Roll of a Dice

[Dcopymope]

I don't feel God know's who will choose Him,else what's the point...

All have free will,except for the elect,ie,those who were chosen before the foundation of the world...

Again it's very important to understand the three heaven and earth ages

This is a misconception of scripture that is unfortunately common among some. I'm not sure what scripture reference you're referring to here, as there are a few, but scripture overall does not say what you have stated here. Please give the scriptural references you are referring to and we can discuss it.

I have no idea what he means by "the elect" being chosen before the foundation of the world. As far as I can tell, the only "elect" chosen before the foundation of the world for anything was for Jesus Christ to be born, crucified and raised from the dead for our redemption. God doesn't predestine who gets saved and who doesn't, or who becomes "good" or "evil", because that would make God the author of evil itself and a liar when he clearly stated that it is not his wish for any of us to perish but to be saved by the blood atonement of Jesus Christ.

 

[StanJ]

I have no idea what he means by "the elect" being chosen before the foundation of the world. As far as I can tell, the only "elect" chosen before the foundation of the world for anything was for Jesus Christ to be born, crucified and raised from the dead for our redemption. God doesn't predestine who gets saved and who doesn't, or who becomes "good" or "evil", because that would make God the author of evil itself and a liar when he clearly stated that it is not his wish for any of us to perish but to be saved by the blood atonement of Jesus Christ.

Neither do I, which is why I asked, but until my question is answered I won't know how to reply. I totally agree with you though that God does not choose who will get saved and who will not and what choices we make or don't make. He may know them, but He definitely doesn't force us into anything against our will.

 

[n2thelight]

Ephesians 1:4 "According as He hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love:"

What does it mean to be "chosen"?

It means that there are certain people that God chosen in the first earth age, to do a task for Him in this flesh earth age. This is not reincarnation, for it is appointed for each of us to go through this earth age, the flesh earth age, once and only once. We read; "...It is appointed unto men once to die [in the flesh], but after this the judgment." Hebrews 9:27 This appointing and choosing took place before the foundation of this earth age; the second earth age [cosmos] that we now live in.

"Without blame" refers to the fact that God intercedes in certain peoples lives. Certain people have free will, while certain others are of God's election, however, God doesn't play favorites. Christ died for the sins of all who will repent; the chosen, and the free-will. All must repent for sins they commit, and love the Lord Jesus Christ, to have the hope of His glory.

"Before the foundation of the world", [cosmos in the Greek, meaning world or earth age.] The "foundation" in the Greek text, is the verb for, "the overthrow". This refers to something that happened in that first earth age, before the overthrow of Satan and his angels that followed him. When Satan fell [war against God], one third of all angelic beings [God's children] followed Satan. Then during that war, there were some who fought against Satan, and those who did, God calls "His Chosen". They took a stand, and were overcomers in that first earth age.
Have you ever wondered why you do the things that you do, at times. It's just like you have a destiny. You have always felt their is more to life, and this world, then what you have been taught. Paul addresses this in Romans 8:27. In verse twenty six it says that there are times in your life when the Holy Spirit makes intercession for you because you don't even know what to pray for.

"And he that searcheth the heart knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God." Romans 8:27 These saints are "the set-aside ones", or "the chosen". God has a overall plan, and a purpose in that plan just for you. That purpose is to bring back His children to Him; after that overthrow, and in this earth age.

Why would God intercede in a person's life, without them even asking? When your free-will goes against God's purpose for your life, God will intercede. When Paul's "free will" was to destroy all Christians, God's will was to take this highly educated man, and use Paul as the instrument for Him. Paul used to same drive to destroy Christians, that he used later to convert people, after his conversion.
We read that the Lord said; "...For He is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and Kings, and children of Israel:" Acts 9:15

Ephesians 1:5 "Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,"
"Predestined" means "from a prior time", or "required to do a certain thing" in the Greek text. You have a choice of loving God, or loving Satan. God will not interfere with your free will choice to chose Him or Satan. However, that person that proved himself during the overthrow of Satan, were "justified", or earned the right to be called "saints", from that first earth age.

Each soul comes from God, and enters an embryo at conception. This is why Jeremiah was a chosen one. "Before I formed thee in the belly I know thee; and before thou comest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet of nations." Jeremiah 1:5
"Sanctified" thee, is to "set aside, or apart for a purpose". Sins still have to be repented, and the price to pay for them still had to be made. To the predestined, and fore chosen, God can make life so miserable to those out of His will that they will repent. God has a perfect will, and God is always fair.

"And we know that all things work together for good, to them that love God, to them who are the called according to His purpose." Romans 8:28 This verse is directed to a certain people, with a condition attached. This applies to "them who are called according to His purpose." "His purpose" is called God's plan, and God's overall plan is the offering of Salvation to all. That plan includes the teaching of God's Word; to plant seeds to convict; to live our life for Him; and to go and speak where God leads you. God will use you as it pleases Him.
"For whom He did foreknow, He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren." Romans 8:29 God knew you, and what you were in that first earth age; and then [in that first earth age] God prearranged our destiny for this age. That destiny is to make us conform, or be like His Son, Jesus Christ. Though Jesus is the first fruits to overcome death, there are many that have that victory over death, through Christ's death and resurrection
.
"Moreover whom He did predestinate, them He also called: and whom He called: He also justified: and whom He justified, them He also glorified." Romans 8:30 "Justified" means "judged" in the Greek text; God judged them there in that first earth age, and that is why God can and does intercede in the chosen's ones lives. The justified are the priests of the Zadok in the millennium age of Ezekiel 40, for the word Zadok comes from the Hebrew word meaning "the just".

Certain of God's children stood against Satan in the first earth age, and those that did stand, and did not follow Satan; God judged [justified], and He "chose" them then to be used in His eternal plan. Through God's perfect plan, God "predestined", and "ordained" each of them to His purpose to be used in this flesh age. Each of these will also be used in the Millennium age as priests, or called the "Zadok".
When you become a Christian, and God has given you a working over, He is trying to wake you up. God is calling out a people, His people, the "Elect-chosen, and predestined" to stand against the Antichrist [Satan] in this final generation.

"What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?"Romans 8:31 "What things"? The things mentioned in verses 27-30. The knowledge that God has judged the overcomers, and chose them for the purpose of fulfilling His plan; then predestined those overcomers to a service, not only in this flesh age, but the millennium age to come. They will be the priests [Zadok] then.

http://www.theseason.org/ephesians/ephesians1.htm

 

[n2thelight]

Romans 9:11 "(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of Him That calleth;"

Romans 9:12 "It was said unto her, "The elder shall serve the younger."

Romans 9:13 "As it is written "Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated."

Why did God hate Easu?

Jeremiah 1:5 "Before I formed thee in the belly I know thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations."


And how did He know Jeremiah?

And please don't say because He knows everything,if thats your answer,don't answer!!!!!

 

[justaname]

As God functioned differently under the Old Covenant than he does under the New Covenant should not come as a surprise to anybody who understands the difference between the Old Testament and the New Testament.
Prophets were altogether a different class of believers under the old Covenant and as such would be disciplined by God when they refused to do what they were instructed to do. Let's try to stick with comparing Apples to Apples shall we. The op is not about being a prophet, the op is about predestination. Those who believe and accept Jesus Christ as their lord and savior do so of their own volition and are not forced to accept him as their savior. Subsequent to that our free will still comes into play given we are required to either obey or not to obey what the Holy Spirit wants us to do. The goal of any Christian is to supplant our will for that of God's will, but no matter how you look at it, it is still our will that decides whether or not we listen to God and obey his will. The law of reaping and sowing has always been one of the basic laws of God's creation and that has not been superseded under the New Covenant. Nevertheless that does not mean we are ever forced to do what we do not will to do.

Again...Paul the Apostle...Apples to Apples...Paul was content persecuting Christians, yet God showed him how much he would have to suffer for His namesake. Acts 9:16

Allow me this to add in our discussion. It is not that any are forced to accept God and the salvation He offers, Jesus as Lord, as truly the creature desires to obey the Creator (Romans 8:19) only he/she is subject to bondage to sin and in open rebellion. But let's keep in mind every knee will bow and every tongue will confess.

All of God's children seek to love and serve Him. Paul makes a great example. He wanted to serve the true God, and in his heart he thought he was doing the right thing. Yet God interfered with Saul's current activity of persecuting Jesus and superseded his free-will to correct his path.

By freeing us from rebellion God is allowing us follow our redeemed desires rather than be entrapped to our desires maligned by the fall. In our current state we still combat sin, yet we are being transformed into the image of His Son who always did what was pleasing to the Father. We have an old desire we are putting to death and a redeemed desire that is perfect in it's ways. Those who come to God come both freely and by their own will or desire for this fits within the redeemed desire, all while it was/is within God's monergistic activity they come.

 

[StanJ]

Again...Paul the Apostle...Apples to Apples...Paul was content persecuting Christians, yet God showed him how much he would have to suffer for His namesake. Acts 9:16

Jesus call Paul to be his Apostle to the Gentiles. He didn't force him to be.

Allow me this to add in our discussion. It is not that any are forced to accept God and the salvation He offers, Jesus as Lord, as truly the creature desires to obey the Creator (Romans 8:19) only he/she is subject to bondage to sin and in open rebellion. But let's keep in mind every knee will bow and every tongue will confess.

Romans 8:19 reads; For the creation waits in eager expectation for the children of God to be revealed.
I'm afraid your assertion here totally ignores the fact of our carnal nature and that the human heart is deceitfully wicked above all things. Yes, every knee will bow, when they no longer see darkly as if in a mirror.

All of God's children seek to love and serve Him. Paul makes a great example. He wanted to serve the true God, and in his heart he thought he was doing the right thing. Yet God interfered with Saul's current activity of persecuting Jesus and superseded his free-will to correct his path.

Saul was jealous that is a far cry from seeking to love and serve God. Judas was also jealous and he was the one that betrayed Jesus. Jesus no more interfered with Saul, than he did with any of the Apostles that he called. These are quite the mental gymnastics you're doing!

By freeing us from rebellion God is allowing us follow our redeemed desires rather than be entrapped to our desires maligned by the fall. In our current state we still combat sin, yet we are being transformed into the image of His Son who always did what was pleasing to the Father. We have an old desire we are putting to death and a redeemed desire that is perfect in it's ways. Those who come to God come both freely and by their own will or desire for this fits within the redeemed desire, all while it was/is within God's monergistic activity they come.

We are only freed from rebellion if we stop rebelling and accept Jesus as our savior. God draws us but we are the ones that have to respond to that drawing, either positively or negatively. If we were not in control of our decisions we could not possibly be held responsible for our actions. As the Bible clearly shows that we are responsible for our actions then we obviously are in control of them I'm have the free will to do as we desire.
The reality of the Bible is a synergistic one.

 

[StanJ]

Ephesians 1:4 "According as He hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love:"

I don't see anything here and your entire copy and paste job that says the elect were chosen before the foundation of the world.

 

[justaname]

Jesus call Paul to be his Apostle to the Gentiles. He didn't force him to be.
Romans 8:19 reads; For the creation waits in eager expectation for the children of God to be revealed.
I'm afraid your assertion here totally ignores the fact of our carnal nature and that the human heart is deceitfully wicked above all things. Yes, every knee will bow, when they no longer see darkly as if in a mirror.
Saul was jealous that is a far cry from seeking to love and serve God. Judas was also jealous and he was the one that betrayed Jesus. Jesus no more interfered with Saul, than he did with any of the Apostles that he called. These are quite the mental gymnastics you're doing!
We are only freed from rebellion if we stop rebelling and accept Jesus as our savior. God draws us but we are the ones that have to respond to that drawing, either positively or negatively. If we were not in control of our decisions we could not possibly be held responsible for our actions. As the Bible clearly shows that we are responsible for our actions then we obviously are in control of them I'm have the free will to do as we desire.
The reality of the Bible is a synergistic one.

So Jesus strikes Saul with blindness and this is not interfering.

Thanks for the discussion, it is obvious you don't want one you just want to spout your eisegesis.

 

[StanJ]

So Jesus strikes Saul with blindness and this is not interfering.
Thanks for the discussion, it is obvious you don't want one you just want to spout your eisegesis.

I'm not actually convinced that Jesus struck Paul with blindness, but the blinding light that resulted from his appearance could have caused Paul's severe myopic condition to get even worse and then it took a while for his eyes to recover. That condition was The Thorn In the Flesh that Paul spoke about throughout his letters.
your MO has not changed at all since we last discussed this issue justaname. You still throw around wild accusations at the drop of a hat.

 

[justaname]

I'm not actually convinced that Jesus struck Paul with blindness, but the blinding light that resulted from his appearance could have caused Paul's severe myopic condition to get even worse and then it took a while for his eyes to recover. That condition was The Thorn In the Flesh that Paul spoke about throughout his letters.
your MO has not changed at all since we last discussed this issue justaname. You still throw around wild accusations at the drop of a hat.

You are quibbling about how the blindness came about rather than the issue of Jesus appearing to Saul. God knew Paul would go blind when He appeared to Him. Paul's blindness was a direct result of God appearing to him. Jesus simply appearing to Saul is interfering with Saul's free will, blindness or not. Clearly you are deflecting and I don't want to waste my time. Now if you are open to honest discourse, I stand corrected and apologize, yet it does not seem that way to me.

Then you want to discount God's sovereign activity in the Old Teatament without warrent, yet you and I both know it is full of God supercedeing any man's will. Just like this account:

So the king did not listen to the people, for it was a turn of affairs brought about by the LORD that he might fulfill his word, which the LORD spoke by Ahijah the Shilonite to Jeroboam the son of Nebat. - 1 Kings 12:15

God's covenant has changed, but He has not. You have no case that God does not interfere with man's free-will, neither can you support this false assertion.

 

[StanJ]

You are quibbling about how the blindness came about rather than the issue of Jesus appearing to Saul. God knew Paul would go blind when He appeared to Him. Paul's blindness was a direct result of God appearing to him. Jesus simply appearing to Saul is interfering with Saul's free will, blindness or not. Clearly you are deflecting and I don't want to waste my time. Now if you are open to honest discourse, I stand corrected and apologize, yet it does not seem that way to me.
Then you want to discount God's sovereign activity in the Old Teatament without warrent, yet you and I both know it is full of God supercedeing any man's will. Just like this account:
So the king did not listen to the people, for it was a turn of affairs brought about by the LORD that he might fulfill his word, which the LORD spoke by Ahijah the Shilonite to Jeroboam the son of Nebat. - 1 Kings 12:15
God's covenant has changed, but He has not. You have no case that God does not interfere with man's free-will, neither can you support this false assertion.

It's not quibbling at all, it's setting the record straight. You're the one that brought it up out of context in order to deflect. Remember you're the one that started asking the questions and I've been answering them but you just don't like the answers. Now again you bring up Old Testament examples that have nothing to do with the issue Free Will and salvation. I've never advocated that there is no repercussion with a man exercising their free will but you make it sound as if God deliberately interferes without cause. God always gives us a choice just as he did with all the Kings of Israel and every other nation that they interacted with. Apparently you think that God is some kind of Universal Puppet Master?

 

[Born_Again]

If God doesn't interfere, then how could prophecy be fulfilled? Without prophecy, everything is just a roll of the dice and God gets surprised at every roll. We are trying to understand a being that we can not possibly comprehend. In this scripture below, God declares we cant understand Him and never will. There are two pages worth of posts with people claiming they know what God will and will not do. Its almost blasphemy. Justaname has provided numerous examples of both NT and OT incidents where God did interfere. And the best response anyone could come up with was "God doesn't do that anymore". I'm sorry, but that is extremely arrogant and ignorant. Who are we to set limits on the creator of everything we know?


Isaiah 55:8-9 (ESV)

8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways, declares the Lord.
9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways
and my thoughts than your thoughts.

 

[lforrest]

It's not quibbling at all, it's setting the record straight. You're the one that brought it up out of context in order to deflect. Remember you're the one that started asking the questions and I've been answering them but you just don't like the answers. Now again you bring up Old Testament examples that have nothing to do with the issue Free Will and salvation. I've never advocated that there is no repercussion with a man exercising their free will but you make it sound as if God deliberately interferes without cause. God always gives us a choice just as he did with all the Kings of Israel and every other nation that they interacted with. Apparently you think that God is some kind of Universal Puppet Master?

Consider jeremiah 20:9
But if I say, “I will not mention his word or speak anymore in his name,” his word is in my heart like a fire, a fire shut up in my bones. I am weary of holding it in; indeed, I cannot.

This reveals a spiritual aspect of decision making, jeremiah is a slave to righteousness as is explained in Romans 6.

So as humans created as servants we are inclined towards servitude. We will obey our master whomever that is. But this choice of whom to serve appears to be in our hands, because if it weren't how could man have fallen? I think God does try to influence us to pick him. Likewise Satan attempts to get us pick him.

 

[StanJ]

Consider jeremiah 20:9
But if I say, “I will not mention his word or speak anymore in his name,” his word is in my heart like a fire, a fire shut up in my bones. I am weary of holding it in; indeed, I cannot.
This reveals a spiritual aspect of decision making, jeremiah is a slave to righteousness as is explained in Romans 6.
So as humans created as servants we are inclined towards servitude. We will obey our master whomever that is. But this choice of whom to serve appears to be in our hands, because if it weren't how could man have fallen? I think God does try to influence us to pick him. Likewise Satan attempts to get us pick him.

AMEN!

 

[StanJ]

If God doesn't interfere, then how could prophecy be fulfilled? Without prophecy, everything is just a roll of the dice and God gets surprised at every roll. We are trying to understand a being that we can not possibly comprehend. In this scripture below, God declares we cant understand Him and never will. There are two pages worth of posts with people claiming they know what God will and will not do. Its almost blasphemy. Justaname has provided numerous examples of both NT and OT incidents where God did interfere. And the best response anyone could come up with was "God doesn't do that anymore". I'm sorry, but that is extremely arrogant and ignorant. Who are we to set limits on the creator of everything we know?


Isaiah 55:8-9 (ESV)

8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, [/size]neither are your ways my ways, declares the Lord.9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, [/size]so are my ways higher than your ways [/size]and my thoughts than your thoughts.

Prophecy is not interference, prophecy is about what God will do despite what man does. Man having free will does not mean that God is any less Sovereign than he is. Sovereignty is about God running the show and Free Will is about how he made us.

 

[Dcopymope]

If God doesn't interfere, then how could prophecy be fulfilled? Without prophecy, everything is just a roll of the dice and God gets surprised at every roll. We are trying to understand a being that we can not possibly comprehend. In this scripture below, God declares we cant understand Him and never will. There are two pages worth of posts with people claiming they know what God will and will not do. Its almost blasphemy. Justaname has provided numerous examples of both NT and OT incidents where God did interfere. And the best response anyone could come up with was "God doesn't do that anymore". I'm sorry, but that is extremely arrogant and ignorant. Who are we to set limits on the creator of everything we know?

Isaiah 55:8-9 (ESV)

8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways, declares the Lord.
9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways
and my thoughts than your thoughts.

Prophecy is not interference, prophecy is about what God will do despite what man does. Man having free will does not mean that God is any less Sovereign than he is. Sovereignty is about God running the show and Free Will is about how he made us.

(Mark 14:29-30) "But Peter said unto him, Although all shall be offended, yet will not I. {30} And Jesus saith unto him, Verily I say unto thee, That this day, even in this night, before the cock crow twice, thou shalt deny me thrice."

When Jesus stated that Peter would deny him three times before the cock crowed twice, that in a sense can be considered a prophecy. Its not necessarily just about what God will do despite the actions of man, prophecy is also about what God knows is bound to happen regardless of mans free will. At no point is it stated that God hardened or put it in Peter's heart to deny him three times. He didn't deny him because of God's interference, he just knew it was going to happen simply because God knows the future. He's already seen it, because he is the past, present and future, the beginning and the end, the alpha and omega. Time means nothing to him, because to him, what we call future events has already occurred to God.

 

[justaname]

It's not quibbling at all, it's setting the record straight. You're the one that brought it up out of context in order to deflect. Remember you're the one that started asking the questions and I've been answering them but you just don't like the answers. Now again you bring up Old Testament examples that have nothing to do with the issue Free Will and salvation. I've never advocated that there is no repercussion with a man exercising their free will but you make it sound as if God deliberately interferes without cause. God always gives us a choice just as he did with all the Kings of Israel and every other nation that they interacted with. Apparently you think that God is some kind of Universal Puppet Master?

No I do not think God is a puppet master, yet I believe the Scriptures. And I seem to be the only one using them to support my case.

When they heard these things they fell silent. And they glorified God, saying, "Then to the Gentiles also God has granted repentance that leads to life." - Acts 11:18

I hold to what I have stated from the beginning. God does interfere with the free-will of men. It is He that grants repentance. And men freely act in accordance with their greatest desires. The unredeemed nonbelievers act in sin, while the redeemed have the propensity to obey God, yet even they fail at times.

God is Sovereign in the affairs of men, the Scripture wholly attests to this even to the point where you are in unbelief, all while men are culpable for their actions. Perhaps you are uneasy with this tension, but do not seek to blame God for the evil actions men do.

this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men. - Acts 2:23

It was God's plan Jesus was crucified, and He used evil, willing men to enact His plan.

 

[StanJ]

No I do not think God is a puppet master, yet I believe the Scriptures. And I seem to be the only one using them to support my case.
When they heard these things they fell silent. And they glorified God, saying, "Then to the Gentiles also God has granted repentance that leads to life." - Acts 11:18
I hold to what I have stated from the beginning. God does interfere with the free-will of men. It is He that grants repentance. And men freely act in accordance with their greatest desires. The unredeemed nonbelievers act in sin, while the redeemed have the propensity to obey God, yet even they fail at times.
God is Sovereign in the affairs of men, the Scripture wholly attests to this even to the point where you are in unbelief, all while men are culpable for their actions. Perhaps you are uneasy with this tension, but do not seek to blame God for the evil actions men do.
this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men. - Acts 2:23
It was God's plan Jesus was crucified, and He used evil, willing men to enact His plan.

So you're saying you don't believe God is a puppet master but the scriptures say He is? That makes no sense.
Acts 11:18 has nothing to do with predestination or God interfering in people's lives. It's about opening up the New Covenant to Gentiles when it was originally only meant for the Jews.
I know what you stated but you just haven't been able to show it from scripture except in a twisted sort of way.
So now you're agreeing that men really act of their free-will? Could you make up your mind please. The only thing I am uneasy with in this dialogue is how quickly you jump from one point-of-view to the opposite. The scripture says that while we were yet sinners God reconciled us to himself through his son and the scriptures also say that he redeemed mankind not just those who believed in him. You seem to lack a grasp of some of the basics of soteriology. In Acts 2:23, Peter speaks in the context of God's foreknowledge, just as he did in 1 Peter 1:2 and just as Paul did in Romans 8:29 - 30. Foreknowledge is not a synonym for interference.

 

[justaname]

So you're saying you don't believe God is a puppet master but the scriptures say He is? That makes no sense.
Acts 11:18 has nothing to do with predestination or God interfering in people's lives. It's about opening up the New Covenant to Gentiles when it was originally only meant for the Jews.
I know what you stated but you just haven't been able to show it from scripture except in a twisted sort of way.
So now you're agreeing that men really act of their free-will? Could you make up your mind please. The only thing I am uneasy with in this dialogue is how quickly you jump from one point-of-view to the opposite. The scripture says that while we were yet sinners God reconciled us to himself through his son and the scriptures also say that he redeemed mankind not just those who believed in him. You seem to lack a grasp of some of the basics of soteriology. In Acts 2:23, Peter speaks in the context of God's foreknowledge, just as he did in 1 Peter 1:2 and just as Paul did in Romans 8:29 - 30. Foreknowledge is not a synonym for interference.

I am not saying God is a puppet master neither did I say Scriptures say He is, you are putting those words into this discussion. Straw-man...

Acts 11:18 is clear... "Then to the Gentiles also God has granted repentance that leads to life."
Repentance deals with a changing of one's thinking about a certain concept or idea. God granted the changing of the idea of who Christ is and what He has done into the true and proper idea.

Philippians 1:29 teaches God grants that we believe.
For to you it has been granted for Christ’s sake, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake,

Romans 12:3 again verifies God gives the measure of faith.
For through the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith.

Do you understand if you are the originator of faith pride rules you, yet if God is the originator of your faith then truly you are humbled?

Ephesians 2:8-10
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

If we are the originator of our faith then we have the boast of I am a self made Christian where others were too foolish to receive the gift. Through my proper choices I have accepted God! Yet the Scriptures remove boasting...look closely...and that not of yourselves...the faith is a gift. Grace by definition is unmerited favor.

Now as to your confusion. You seem to want an either or type of answer. Either God does not interfere with men and men are culpable for their actions or God does interfere and God is culpable for the actions of men. Yet this is not what the Scripture presents. God does interfere, as in the case of Pharaoh and many kings depicted in Scripture as well as His prophets and His people Israel and Paul the apostle and the list goes on...all while men are culpable for their actions and will answer to God for what they have done while in the body.

Romans 9
One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?"
On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it? Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use?


Now lets look to how God defines His foreknowledge:

Isaiah 46:8-11
Remember this and stand firm, recall it to mind, you transgressors, 9 remember the former things of old; for I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me, 10 declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done, saying, “My counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all my purpose,” calling a bird of prey from the east, the man of my counsel from a far country. I have spoken, and I will bring it to pass; I have purposed, and I will do it.

It is by His counsel and by His purpose that He declares the end from the beginning. He has spoken, He has purposed, and He will do it. He is not a soothsayer, He plans what comes and He brings about what comes.

Finally I want you to think about this. If God does not interfere with the free-will of men, why would you ever pray for the salvation of another person? Why would you ever pray someone comes to belief? Why would you pray someone abides in Christ?

God would be unable to answer your prayers...

 

[StanJ]

I am not saying God is a puppet master neither did I say Scriptures say He is, you are putting those words into this discussion. Straw-man...

And it's really up to you to be clear on what you are saying when you post.

Acts 11:18 is clear... "Then to the Gentiles also God has granted repentance that leads to life."
Repentance deals with a changing of one's thinking about a certain concept or idea. God granted the changing of the idea of who Christ is and what He has done into the true and proper idea.

Repentance comes from a free-will decision of the heart it is not something that is programmed into us by God. The fact that God opened up the New Covenant to Gentiles is the only reason we are able to exercise our Free Will in this regard as Paul states in Romans 10:9-11. Maybe you should read it?

Philippians 1:29 teaches God grants that we believe.
For to you it has been granted for Christ’s sake, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake

Not surprising as it is God that draws us to himself but Paul was also adding an additional comment here of Prophecy and that not only were they not Believers but that they would suffer for their belief. this is not interference at all but simply inclusion into the plans that God originally had only for the nation of Israel.

Romans 12:3 again verifies God gives the measure of faith.
For throughthe grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith.

The context that Paul is dealing with here is the gift of discernment or knowledge which is distributed by God, and according to a person's faith, they will exercise that knowledge. No different than what Paul says in 1st Corinthians 12:11

Do you understand if you are the originator of faith pride rules you, yet if God is the originator of your faith then truly you are humbled?

That is your opinion, that is not factual as far as scripture is concerned. If they were almost twice as many mentions of the word faith in the New Testament as there are in the Old Testament and the reason being that the New Testament or New Covenant operates by faith. That faith is resident in us as Jesus makes very clear in Matthew 6:30 and 8:10. It is up to us to feed our faith and that's growing God, unless you really feel that God arbitrarily gives people different levels of faith and then blames them for not having enough faith?

Ephesians 2:8-10
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

What Paul is talking about here is the gift of Salvation that God gave us and that is not something we attained by works but simply by faith or belief. Yes we are his workmanship, if we are saved, which is exactly what Paul also states in Romans 8:29. God does not make us believe we either believe what we see and know or we don't which is another thing that Paul made abundantly clear in Romans 1:18-20.

If we are the originator of our faith then we have the boast of I am a self made Christian where others were too foolish to receive the gift. Through my proper choices I have accepted God! Yet the Scriptures remove boasting...look closely...and that not of yourselves...the faith is a gift. Grace by definition is unmerited favor.

The belief is on us to accept Jesus Christ or not, that is what Paul clearly teaches in Romans 10. Do you honestly believe that those that believe as you do are not susceptible to self-righteousness? This is a stale old argument that doesn't hold any water whatsoever. The gift that God is talking about, as I've just said, is salvation.

Now as to your confusion. You seem to want an either or type of answer. Either God does not interfere with men and men are culpable for their actions or God does interfere and God is culpable for the actions of men. Yet this is not what the Scripture presents. God does interfere, as in the case of Pharaoh and many kings depicted in Scripture as well as His prophets and His people Israel and Paul the apostle and the list goes on...all while men are culpable for their actions and will answer to God for what they have done while in the body.

The only confusion is on your part in not being able to see the logic in my questions. That period again as I've already said is an Old Testament / Old Covenant and this issue is a New Testament / New Covenant issue and as such God did not interact with believers in the Old Testament the way he does interact with believers in the New Testament under the New Covenant that Jesus ushered in. Typically you mis-apply out of context scripture.

Romans 9
One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?"
On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it? Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use?

As you've just demonstrated here Romans 9 is hard for some people to understand and its proper context but Paul was speaking to Jews who thought being born the land of Israel would make them eligible for the old Covenant Promises of God and therefore eligible for the New Covenant promises and that was not the case.
Verse 8 puts this whole chapter into context and shows that belief and faith in God's promises and not the fact that one is born nto The Land of Israel, was key. If you carefully read vs 30-32, it may give you better insight into the real context of this chapter and not what you're trying to make it out to be. God's word does not contradict itself and every time you try to make it do so you are speaking against his word.

Finally I want you to think about this. If God does not interfere with the free-will of men, why would you ever pray for the salvation of another person? Why would you ever pray someone comes to belief? Why would you pray someone abides in Christ? God would be unable to answer your prayers...

That's a strawman and a red herring, because you couldn't answer that question either given your point of view. Remember that we don't wrestle against flesh and blood so when we pray for people to be saved we're praying and coming against the principalities and powers of darkness that are resisting, not the actual person themselves to change their mind. If you need to know how to pray than read Matthew 6 to see what to pray.