Predestination, All Things are Determined by God, Even the Outcome of a Roll of a Dice

[justaname]

The apostles said to the Lord, "Increase our faith!" - Luke 17:5

It seems the apostles understood where faith comes from...

 

[FHII]

The apostles said to the Lord, "Increase our faith!" - Luke 17:5

It seems the apostles understood where faith comes from...

Faith comes by hearing the word through a preacher. Rom 10

 

[kerwin]

Faith comes by hearing the word through a preacher. Rom 10

Do you consider Scripture as being a preacher?

 

[kerwin]

The apostles said to the Lord, "Increase our faith!" - Luke 17:5

It seems the apostles understood where faith comes from...

Yes, it comes from God which does not mean it does not come from hearing the word of God.

 

[justaname]

And it's really up to you to be clear on what you are saying when you post.
Repentance comes from a free-will decision of the heart it is not something that is programmed into us by God. The fact that God opened up the New Covenant to Gentiles is the only reason we are able to exercise our Free Will in this regard as Paul states in Romans 10:9-11. Maybe you should read it?
Not surprising as it is God that draws us to himself but Paul was also adding an additional comment here of Prophecy and that not only were they not Believers but that they would suffer for their belief. this is not interference at all but simply inclusion into the plans that God originally had only for the nation of Israel.
The context that Paul is dealing with here is the gift of discernment or knowledge which is distributed by God, and according to a person's faith, they will exercise that knowledge. No different than what Paul says in 1st Corinthians 12:11
That is your opinion, that is not factual as far as scripture is concerned. If they were almost twice as many mentions of the word faith in the New Testament as there are in the Old Testament and the reason being that the New Testament or New Covenant operates by faith. That faith is resident in us as Jesus makes very clear in Matthew 6:30 and 8:10. It is up to us to feed our faith and that's growing God, unless you really feel that God arbitrarily gives people different levels of faith and then blames them for not having enough faith?
What Paul is talking about here is the gift of Salvation that God gave us and that is not something we attained by works but simply by faith or belief. Yes we are his workmanship, if we are saved, which is exactly what Paul also states in Romans 8:29. God does not make us believe we either believe what we see and know or we don't which is another thing that Paul made abundantly clear in Romans 1:18-20.
The belief is on us to accept Jesus Christ or not, that is what Paul clearly teaches in Romans 10. Do you honestly believe that those that believe as you do are not susceptible to self-righteousness? This is a stale old argument that doesn't hold any water whatsoever. The gift that God is talking about, as I've just said, is salvation.
The only confusion is on your part in not being able to see the logic in my questions. That period again as I've already said is an Old Testament / Old Covenant and this issue is a New Testament / New Covenant issue and as such God did not interact with believers in the Old Testament the way he does interact with believers in the New Testament under the New Covenant that Jesus ushered in. Typically you mis-apply out of context scripture.
As you've just demonstrated here Romans 9 is hard for some people to understand and its proper context but Paul was speaking to Jews who thought being born the land of Israel would make them eligible for the old Covenant Promises of God and therefore eligible for the New Covenant promises and that was not the case.
Verse 8 puts this whole chapter into context and shows that belief and faith in God's promises and not the fact that one is born nto The Land of Israel, was key. If you carefully read vs 30-32, it may give you better insight into the real context of this chapter and not what you're trying to make it out to be. God's word does not contradict itself and every time you try to make it do so you are speaking against his word.
That's a strawman and a red herring, because you couldn't answer that question either given your point of view. Remember that we don't wrestle against flesh and blood so when we pray for people to be saved we're praying and coming against the principalities and powers of darkness that are resisting, not the actual person themselves to change their mind. If you need to know how to pray than read Matthew 6 to see what to pray.

Let me just comment on a few things.

1. Scripture explicitly teaches God grants repentance. The Jews in this conversation have already received the repentance, whereas not every Jew did. The Gentiles that received the repentance God gave were the ones Peter was speaking about.

2. Scripture teaches God grants that we believe. Here you agreed. If He grants belief, then repentance from
improper views is automatically assumed.

3. Scripture teaches God gives a measure of faith. I agree the context, yet this only strengthens the idea God does interfere with free-will by instilling a measure of faith or trust. He could just leave it entirely up to us, but he doesn't. Then who are you to say God's measuring of faith is arbitrary?

4 I am not stating I am not able to fall to self-righteousness, rather that if you believe you mustered the faith in the gospel from your own heart surely the seeds of pride have already been planted.

5. I have no difficulty understanding Romans 9 and completely understand the context. Yet the context does not discount the strength of the language used nor does it refute the idea of God selecting individuals. Context shows Paul is speaking about nations and individuals. God has selected individuals from the nation of Israel and from the Gentile nations. God has mercy on whom He desires. He has compassion on whom He has compassion. The Holy Spirit explicitly states it does not depend on human will or exertion, but on God who has mercy. Yet you continually argue salvation is wholly dependent on human will. You are wrong.

So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. - Romans 9:16

This verse is not talking one bit about where a person was born, yet the Holy Spirit contextually added it here in the epistle. This is no coincidence.

You attempt to refute every explicit statement given by God concerning His sovereign activity within salvation. Why do you so strongly want to hold to the idea that you are the responsible party for your faith and ultimately your salvation? Give the credit to God.

Let me give this last verse.

And he said, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father." - John 6:65

I have made the Scriptural case that God grants repentance, God grants belief, God grants faith, and here Jesus explicitly states that only those granted by God come to Him.

 

[justaname]

Faith comes by hearing the word through a preacher. Rom 10

Who sent the preacher?

 

[justaname]

Yes, it comes from God which does not mean it does not come from hearing the word of God.

I agree.

 

[FHII]

Do you consider Scripture as being a preacher?

Yea... Sure. In the same way that I consider a song to be a singer.

In other words.... No.

 

[StanJ]

The apostles said to the Lord, "Increase our faith!" - Luke 17:5 It seems the apostles understood where faith comes from...

Yes they did, which is why they said increase OUR faith, and Jesus responded by saying if YOU have faith the size of a mustard seed. He didn't correct them about whose faith it was they were talking about. This is no different than what the father in Mark 9:24 ask Jesus to do. Why would Jesus answer positively to both of these prayers if they were asking wrongly in the sense that it wasn't their faith but something God had instilled in them? In the light of James 4:3 these people obviously did not ask wrongly or amiss.

 

[StanJ]

Let me just comment on a few things.
1. Scripture explicitly teaches God grants repentance. The Jews in this conversation have already received the repentance, whereas not every Jew did. The Gentiles that received the repentance God gave were the ones Peter was speaking about.
2. Scripture teaches God grants that we believe. Here you agreed. If He grants belief, then repentance from
improper views is automatically assumed.
3. Scripture teaches God gives a measure of faith. I agree the context, yet this only strengthens the idea God does interfere with free-will by instilling a measure of faith or trust. He could just leave it entirely up to us, but he doesn't. Then who are you to say God's measuring of faith is arbitrary?
4 I am not stating I am not able to fall to self-righteousness, rather that if you believe you mustered the faith in the gospel from your own heart surely the seeds of pride have already been planted.
5. I have no difficulty understanding Romans 9 and completely understand the context. Yet the context does not discount the strength of the language used nor does it refute the idea of God selecting individuals. Context shows Paul is speaking about nations and individuals. God has selected individuals from the nation of Israel and from the Gentile nations. God has mercy on whom He desires. He has compassion on whom He has compassion. The Holy Spirit explicitly states it does not depend on human will or exertion, but on God who has mercy. Yet you continually argue salvation is wholly dependent on human will. You are wrong.
So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. - Romans 9:16
This verse is not talking one bit about where a person was born, yet the Holy Spirit contextually added it here in the epistle. This is no coincidence.
You attempt to refute every explicit statement given by God concerning His sovereign activity within salvation. Why do you so strongly want to hold to the idea that you are the responsible party for your faith and ultimately your salvation? Give the credit to God.
Let me give this last verse.
And he said, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father." - John 6:65
I have made the Scriptural case that God grants repentance, God grants belief, God grants faith, and here Jesus explicitly states that only those granted by God come to Him.

You're either getting lazy here or realize you can't address each point so you shove it all together in 1 Post and start repeating herself rather than address each point that I brought up. if you're not interested in pursuing this then just let me know but if you are then please address each point I brought up just as I did for your posts.

 

[StanJ]

Who sent the preacher?

God causes growth from a seed that is already there, that He waters, as Paul clearly teachers in 1 Corinthians 3:6

 

[kerwin]

Yea... Sure. In the same way that I consider a song to be a singer.

In other words.... No.

That is an apples to oranges comparison as a song does not teach and a preacher does not speak just the words of Scripture.

Your conclusion violates the principle that Scripture is the supreme authority of matters of doctrine and practices.

 

[justaname]

You're either getting lazy here or realize you can't address each point so you shove it all together in 1 Post and start repeating herself rather than address each point that I brought up. if you're not interested in pursuing this then just let me know but if you are then please address each point I brought up just as I did for your posts.

My response was adequate, and easily understandable. I addressed your issue with explicit statements. Because you choose to subvert these explicit statements to justify your position is not something that is refutable. In other words I can show you the truth all day long, but it takes God to open your eyes to it. Until then you will continue to suppress it.

Let me just repeat something you refused to comment on.

You agree God grants we believe. (Philippians 1:29)

There is no denying God grants who comes to Jesus. (John 6:65)

My case is made, God does interfere with free will.

So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. - Romans 9:16

 

[FHII]

That is an apples to oranges comparison as a song does not teach and a preacher does not speak just the words of Scripture.

Your conclusion violates the principle that Scripture is the supreme authority of matters of doctrine and practices.

No, it doesn't. Read the Chapter.

 

[StanJ]

My response was adequate, and easily understandable. I addressed your issue with explicit statements. Because you choose to subvert these explicit statements to justify your position is not something that is refutable. In other words I can show you the truth all day long, but it takes God to open your eyes to it. Until then you will continue to suppress it.
Let me just repeat something you refused to comment on.
You agree God grants we believe. (Philippians 1:29)
There is no denying God grants who comes to Jesus. (John 6:65)
My case is made, God does interfere with free will.
So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. - Romans 9:16

Mighty supercilious of you, but as far as I am concerned it was not adequate.
You didn't address my concerns, you deny them and reiterated what you always do without scriptural proof.
What you perceive as subversion is simply refutation that you also refuse to admit to. Your modus operandi it's blatantly obvious.
As far as Philippians 1:29 is concerned, the Greek word used for granted is; χαρίζομαι (charizomai), and connotes a gratifying of a deep-seated desire, which in this case was believing in Jesus Christ. The desire is pre-existing and is granted because God opened up the New Covenant to gentiles. You see when you approach the word of God using the word of God and not a doctrinal predisposition, you will actually understand the word of God and it will make sense every single time, not just on a few separate occasions that you manage to pull up.
In the case of John 6:65, the Greek word used for granted is; δίδωμι (didōmi), and connotes exactly the same expression found just previously and John 6:44 which contrary to how you probably believe does not mean drag, but simply to woo a person to who Christ is in reality. We still have to choose and decide to accept or reject him.
As far as Romans 9:16 is concerned, again you pull this verse out of the entire context of this chapter to eisegetically use it to support your erroneous view of God's interference rather than exegetically use it to show that Paul is talking about why God chose to extend the New Covenant to gentiles because of the unbelief of the Jews. You cannot make something supercede the context it exists in, which apparently you've never learned from any basic course on grammar or biblical hermeneutics.
John 7:17
Anyone who chooses to do the will of God will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own.

 

[kerwin]

No, it doesn't. Read the Chapter.

I have read the chapter as well as where Paul states "follow me as I follow the Lord" (1 Corinthians 11:1) and "if we or an angel out of heaven should preach a gospel to you contrary to what we proclaimed to you, let him be accursed". (Galatians 1:8)

A teaching is a teaching whether it is spoken or written.

I trust the words of Scripture more than those of any man; unless the words of that human are in agreement with Scripture.

 

[justaname]

Mighty supercilious of you, but as far as I am concerned it was not adequate.
You didn't address my concerns, you deny them and reiterated what you always do without scriptural proof.
What you perceive as subversion is simply refutation that you also refuse to admit to. Your modus operandi it's blatantly obvious.
As far as Philippians 1:29 is concerned, the Greek word used for granted is; χαρίζομαι (charizomai), and connotes a gratifying of a deep-seated desire, which in this case was believing in Jesus Christ. The desire is pre-existing and is granted because God opened up the New Covenant to gentiles. You see when you approach the word of God using the word of God and not a doctrinal predisposition, you will actually understand the word of God and it will make sense every single time, not just on a few separate occasions that you manage to pull up.
In the case of John 6:65, the Greek word used for granted is; δίδωμι (didōmi), and connotes exactly the same expression found just previously and John 6:44 which contrary to how you probably believe does not mean drag, but simply to woo a person to who Christ is in reality. We still have to choose and decide to accept or reject him.
As far as Romans 9:16 is concerned, again you pull this verse out of the entire context of this chapter to eisegetically use it to support your erroneous view of God's interference rather than exegetically use it to show that Paul is talking about why God chose to extend the New Covenant to gentiles because of the unbelief of the Jews. You cannot make something supercede the context it exists in, which apparently you've never learned from any basic course on grammar or biblical hermeneutics.
John 7:17
Anyone who chooses to do the will of God will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own.

I am uncertain where you are gathering your information and your inference in regards to the Greek. Yet you are wrong.

First the Philippians passage:
Taken from BDAG 3rd edition. This is the most trusted lexicon within academia concerning Biblical Greek.

χαρίζομαι : to give freely as a favor, give graciously

This will explain a bit for you concerning how and where the word is used:

χαρίζομαι (‘give freely or graciously as a favour’) occurs within the NT only in Paul (sixteen times) and Luke (Gospel three times, Acts four times). In Paul’s letters the word is employed chiefly in connection with the decisive, gracious gift of God. Rom. 8:32 speaks of the all-embracing bounty of God in giving his Son (cf. Jn. 3:16), while 1 Cor. 2:12 refers to the Spirit of God leading us to an understanding of all that he has freely bestowed on us. Already under the old covenant the free gift of God was linked with his covenant promise and not with the law (Gal. 3:18). At Phm. 22 the apostle tells his friend Philemon that he hopes to come in person and visit him; if this occurs it will be because the prayers of his Christian friends have been graciously answered by God. Here, too, at Phil. 1:29 the passive voice is again used to signify that the gracious activity was God’s. The aorist tense points to the original bestowal of the gift,94 which occurred when they first believed, while the emphatically placed ὑμῖν corresponds with the previous ὑμῶν.

Peter Thomas O’Brien, The Epistle to the Philippians: A Commentary on the Greek Text, New International Greek Testament Commentary (Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, 1991), 158–159.

O'Brien later states.
Here at Phil. 1:29 the present tense connotes an ongoing relationship of trust in him. Since it parallels the present tense of πάσχειν there is probably the added thought that God has graciously given to the Philippians the privilege of believing (or of continuing to believe) in his Son even while suffering and undergoing persecution. That was a blessing indeed.

Philippians 1:29 has nothing to do with opening the New Covenant up to the Gentiles unless we all don your eisegetical glasses.



The John 6:65 passage uses δίδωμι. This particular word is more flexible in meaning yet in this context it takes on the meaning: "to be granted."

Given by Kostenberger:
Jesus’ focus now turns from the wider circle of his followers to the Twelve. In particular, he notes that one of them (identified specifically in 6:71 as Judas) would betray him. He now explains that this is the actual point of reference of his statement in 6:44 (reiterated in 6:65): in the final analysis, even faith (or lack thereof!) is sovereignly assigned by God.

Andreas J. Köstenberger, John, Baker Exegetical Commentary on the New Testament (Grand Rapids, MI: Baker Academic, 2004), 220.

DA Carson in regards to this verse:
However much men and women are commanded to believe, and are held accountable for their unbelief, genuine coming to faith is never finally a matter of autonomous human decision. The remaining verses in the chapter show this is true even of the Twelve.
D. A. Carson, The Gospel according to John, The Pillar New Testament Commentary (Leicester, England; Grand Rapids, MI: Inter-Varsity Press; W.B. Eerdmans, 1991), 302–303.

Now again to talk about the Romans 9:16 passage. Please explain how man's will or exertion has anything to do with what people group someone is born into? Where does this passage fit within the context you are forcing it into? There is no correlation. This is exactly why the Holy Spirit added to this section of Scripture to Scripture. The argument Paul and the Holy Spirit are making is about God's Sovereign Election in regards to individuals within all nations.

Schreiner states regarding this text:

Human works were excluded previously as the basis on which God elects and calls (vv. 11–12). Verse 16 restates and clarifies this theme by indicating that human choice and effort are not the basis on which God’s merciful promise is received. This verse excludes in the clearest possible terms the notion that free will is the fundamental factor in divine election (cf. Müller 1964: 80–81). The salvation of any, even of the Jewish remnant, is due to the mercy of God. Käsemann (1980: 267–68; cf. Müller 1964: 83–89; Stuhlmacher 1971: 558, 564) is on target in insisting that Paul’s doctrine of predestination is linked with his gospel of justification by faith.

Thomas R. Schreiner, Romans, vol. 6, Baker Exegetical Commentary on the New Testament (Grand Rapids, MI: Baker Books, 1998), 508.

Mounce states:

The point is that God’s favors are not determined by anyone or anything outside of himself. God’s purpose in election rests not upon human will (thelō in v. 16 can express desire or purpose) or effort (a participle from trechō, “run”) but upon divine mercy. Although God elects with sovereign freedom, it does not follow that Israel had nothing to do with their rejection. Later in the chapter we will learn that Israel failed to attain a right standing with God because they pursued it on the basis of works (vv. 30–32). The sovereignty of God does not set aside human responsibility.

Robert H. Mounce, Romans, vol. 27, The New American Commentary (Nashville: Broadman & Holman Publishers, 1995), 199–200.

I and every one of these commentators are acutely aware of context and it's vital role in exegesis. We are not viewing the text seeking to maintain a doctrine as you falsely accuse. We simply view and interpret the text for what it is saying within it's context.

 

[FHII]

I have read the chapter as well as where Paul states "follow me as I follow the Lord" (1 Corinthians 11:1) and "if we or an angel out of heaven should preach a gospel to you contrary to what we proclaimed to you, let him be accursed". (Galatians 1:8)

A teaching is a teaching whether it is spoken or written.

I trust the words of Scripture more than those of any man; unless the words of that human are in agreement with Scripture.

When God appoints a preacher he IS going to preach the Word. Its how we know if he is a Man Of God.

 

[StanJ]

I am uncertain where you are gathering your information and your inference in regards to the Greek. Yet you are wrong.

First the Philippians passage:
Taken from BDAG 3rd edition. This is the most trusted lexicon within academia concerning Biblical Greek.

χαρίζομαι : to give freely as a favor, give graciously

This will explain a bit for you concerning how and where the word is used:

χαρίζομαι (‘give freely or graciously as a favour’) occurs within the NT only in Paul (sixteen times) and Luke (Gospel three times, Acts four times). In Paul’s letters the word is employed chiefly in connection with the decisive, gracious gift of God. Rom. 8:32 speaks of the all-embracing bounty of God in giving his Son (cf. Jn. 3:16), while 1 Cor. 2:12 refers to the Spirit of God leading us to an understanding of all that he has freely bestowed on us. Already under the old covenant the free gift of God was linked with his covenant promise and not with the law (Gal. 3:18). At Phm. 22 the apostle tells his friend Philemon that he hopes to come in person and visit him; if this occurs it will be because the prayers of his Christian friends have been graciously answered by God. Here, too, at Phil. 1:29 the passive voice is again used to signify that the gracious activity was God’s. The aorist tense points to the original bestowal of the gift,94 which occurred when they first believed, while the emphatically placed ὑμῖν corresponds with the previous ὑμῶν.

Peter Thomas O’Brien, The Epistle to the Philippians: A Commentary on the Greek Text, New International Greek Testament Commentary (Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, 1991), 158–159.

O'Brien later states.
Here at Phil. 1:29 the present tense connotes an ongoing relationship of trust in him. Since it parallels the present tense of πάσχειν there is probably the added thought that God has graciously given to the Philippians the privilege of believing (or of continuing to believe) in his Son even while suffering and undergoing persecution. That was a blessing indeed.

Philippians 1:29 has nothing to do with opening the New Covenant up to the Gentiles unless we all don your eisegetical glasses.



The John 6:65 passage uses δίδωμι. This particular word is more flexible in meaning yet in this context it takes on the meaning: "to be granted."

Given by Kostenberger:
Jesus’ focus now turns from the wider circle of his followers to the Twelve. In particular, he notes that one of them (identified specifically in 6:71 as Judas) would betray him. He now explains that this is the actual point of reference of his statement in 6:44 (reiterated in 6:65): in the final analysis, even faith (or lack thereof!) is sovereignly assigned by God.

Andreas J. Köstenberger, John, Baker Exegetical Commentary on the New Testament (Grand Rapids, MI: Baker Academic, 2004), 220.

DA Carson in regards to this verse:
However much men and women are commanded to believe, and are held accountable for their unbelief, genuine coming to faith is never finally a matter of autonomous human decision. The remaining verses in the chapter show this is true even of the Twelve.
D. A. Carson, The Gospel according to John, The Pillar New Testament Commentary (Leicester, England; Grand Rapids, MI: Inter-Varsity Press; W.B. Eerdmans, 1991), 302–303.

Now again to talk about the Romans 9:16 passage. Please explain how man's will or exertion has anything to do with what people group someone is born into? Where does this passage fit within the context you are forcing it into? There is no correlation. This is exactly why the Holy Spirit added to this section of Scripture to Scripture. The argument Paul and the Holy Spirit are making is about God's Sovereign Election in regards to individuals within all nations.

Schreiner states regarding this text:

Human works were excluded previously as the basis on which God elects and calls (vv. 11–12). Verse 16 restates and clarifies this theme by indicating that human choice and effort are not the basis on which God’s merciful promise is received. This verse excludes in the clearest possible terms the notion that free will is the fundamental factor in divine election (cf. Müller 1964: 80–81). The salvation of any, even of the Jewish remnant, is due to the mercy of God. Käsemann (1980: 267–68; cf. Müller 1964: 83–89; Stuhlmacher 1971: 558, 564) is on target in insisting that Paul’s doctrine of predestination is linked with his gospel of justification by faith.

Thomas R. Schreiner, Romans, vol. 6, Baker Exegetical Commentary on the New Testament (Grand Rapids, MI: Baker Books, 1998), 508.

Mounce states:

The point is that God’s favors are not determined by anyone or anything outside of himself. God’s purpose in election rests not upon human will (thelō in v. 16 can express desire or purpose) or effort (a participle from trechō, “run”) but upon divine mercy. Although God elects with sovereign freedom, it does not follow that Israel had nothing to do with their rejection. Later in the chapter we will learn that Israel failed to attain a right standing with God because they pursued it on the basis of works (vv. 30–32). The sovereignty of God does not set aside human responsibility.

Robert H. Mounce, Romans, vol. 27, The New American Commentary (Nashville: Broadman & Holman Publishers, 1995), 199–200.

I and every one of these commentators are acutely aware of context and it's vital role in exegesis. We are not viewing the text seeking to maintain a doctrine as you falsely accuse. We simply view and interpret the text for what it is saying within it's context.

All you've basically done here is excerpt the connotations you want to run with to support your point of view and as such they don't really mean anything other than you refuse to see what you are so clearly shown.
The best thing to do when you want to cite a scholar is to put a link to the commentary so people can read it in its full context and not trust you to point out everything that is pertinent.
In my opinion, the best thing to do when defending your doctrine is to know it and be able to exegete it, not quote other exegetes who happen to be Calvinists.

 

[Dan57]

I don't believe God predetermines everything.. If that were so, why are we here? While God does predestine some people for a specific purpose, we all have free will and make our own choices. God surely knows the beginning from the end, but he doesn't know which souls will believe, because belief is a choice.