Predestination or "Free Will?"

[Niki]

Exactly, Levi. You've got it!

If Satan or man had free will, we would be in trouble.

So it was the will of God for satan to rebel and bring 1/3 of the angels with him?

I wish this thread had not deteriorated into an either or or thread. Yet another debate on what no one has yet settled and kind of useless, IMO, as neither position is biblically
100% correct. The problem with locking into a debate like that, is letting someone else do your thinking for you.

Sheesh. Free will does not mean rejection of God's will. It means being able to freely choose either to embrace God's will or reject it. It is the power of contrary choice. If Calvinism is correct, Paul had no choice but to live according to God's will...and even those who are unfaithful and disobedient are only doing God's will. There is no will but God's will in the Calvinist viewpoint.

However, Jesus tells us to pray, "Your kingdom come, Your will be done." Why would we pray that if everything that happens is already God's will? Seems a bit redundant to me.

Agree

 

[HiddenManna]

We should take a balanced view and not pick and chose the scripture that supports man's ideas.

Sin leads to death.......whose choice is it to sin?

"balanced veiw" not sure what that means? I take the veiw that let God be true and every man a liar. The scriptures speak in very clear terms that its not by the will of man but by the Will of God.

 

[Levi]

"He cuts off every branch that does not bear fruit"

Jesus the Christ

In order to be cut off, you have to be attached in the first place.

Again, sin leads to death, who is it that chooses to sin?

 

[HiddenManna]

"He cuts off every branch that does not bear fruit"

Jesus the Christ

In order to be cut off, you have to be attached in the first place.

Again, sin leads to death, who is it that chooses to sin?

Well if one is walking in the "free will" and not the Will of the Spirit, they have cut themselves off. Just as Paul wrote;
Gal 5:4

Ye are severed from Christ, ye who would be justified by the law; ye are fallen away from grace.

We should take a balanced view and not pick and chose the scripture that supports man's ideas.

Sin leads to death.......whose choice is it to sin?

Again I would add here that it is a man that walks in "free will" that sins, not those who are in the "will" of the Spirit.

 

[Levi]

Yes! That is a great verse! Paul is talking about those who still try to justify themselves.

Our desire should be that we have the will of the Father, there is true freedom there.

We know there are people who will not be there as all the warnings in the NT, one of which I have already given from John 15, Jesus' very words -

He who does not bear fruit, will be cut off.

Sin leads to death and it IS our choice to sin or not. This very verse speaks of our own free choice to sin or not!!

1 Cor 10:13 No temptation has overtaken you except what is common to mankind. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can endure it.

God's desire is that no one would perish, not His will, but we have the choice to accept or reject.

 

[HiddenManna]

Yes! That is a great verse! Paul is talking about those who still try to justify themselves.

Our desire should be that we have the will of the Father, there is true freedom there.

We know there are people who will not be there as all the warnings in the NT, one of which I have already given from John 15, Jesus' very words -

He who does not bear fruit, will be cut off.

Sin leads to death and it IS our choice to sin or not. This very verse speaks of our own free choice to sin or not!!

1 Cor 10:13 No temptation has overtaken you except what is common to mankind. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can endure it.

God's desire is that no one would perish, not His will, but we have the choice to accept or reject.

And it is my point that those who think they are serving God by "free will" are trying to justify themselves and to account to themselves the ability to justify themselves by the actions of their will to work righteousness. It is not "free will" is is a crucified will and the will of Gods Spirit that works righteousness. This is the only "fruit" acceptable to God.

 

[Levi]

And it is my point that those who think they are serving God by "free will" are trying to justify themselves and to account to themselves the ability to justify themselves by the actions of their will to work righteousness. It is not "free will" is is a crucified will and the will of Gods Spirit that works righteousness. This is the only "fruit" acceptable to God.

No! We are choosing to sin OR not! We have a choice to make every time we are tempted.

Obedience is NOT a works, it is a commandment!

The Fruit is Christ - that is the only Fruit acceptable!

 

[Niki]

And it is my point that those who think they are serving God by "free will" are trying to justify themselves and to account to themselves the ability to justify themselves by the actions of their will to work righteousness. It is not "free will" is is a crucified will and the will of Gods Spirit that works righteousness. This is the only "fruit" acceptable to God.

I'm puzzled. I did not read where someone responding in this thread is trying to justify anything. Don't you think you are adding to what has been said here?

I mean seriously adding? Sounds a bit like a judgement to me and that is really off limits IMO

 

[Wormwood]

How is mankind 100% depraved? How does that affect him, both naturally and spiritually?

JB,
Man is in complete bondage to sin and is incapable of anything, even faith. As Wesley put it, "The condition of man after the fall of Adam is such that he cannot turn and prepare himself, by his own natural strength and works, to faith, and calling upon God; wherefore we have no power to do good work, pleasant and acceptable to God, without the grace of God by Christ preventing [going before] us, that we may have a good will, and working with us, when we have that good will."

Of course they do not believe that, if they did they would not attempt to work by the flesh, the written code. Now saying something is one thing, one can say they have no confidence in the flesh, but if they "act" to justify the flesh? Then their words are just vain and religious and have no truth.

HiddenManna,

So are you suggesting that Arminians are being deceitful and they don't really believe what they claim to believe but are actually teaching salvation by works? Pehaps it is more likely that simply have not searched out the views in detail and are making a great many assumptions that are invalid and off base. I think this is more likely the case. Don't be so quick to assume that if someone does not agree with you that their views must be inherently evil and self-contradictory.

 

[HiddenManna]

No! We are choosing to sin OR not! We have a choice to make every time we are tempted.

Obedience is NOT a works, it is a commandment!

The Fruit is Christ - that is the only Fruit acceptable!

If a believer is in the "free will" of the flesh, they are in sin at all times. For those who walk according to the flesh cannot please God in any way.

JB,
Man is in complete bondage to sin and is incapable of anything, even faith. As Wesley put it, "The condition of man after the fall of Adam is such that he cannot turn and prepare himself, by his own natural strength and works, to faith, and calling upon God; wherefore we have no power to do good work, pleasant and acceptable to God, without the grace of God by Christ preventing [going before] us, that we may have a good will, and working with us, when we have that good will."

HiddenManna,

So are you suggesting that Arminians are being deceitful and they don't really believe what they claim to believe but are actually teaching salvation by works? Pehaps it is more likely that simply have not searched out the views in detail and are making a great many assumptions that are invalid and off base. I think this is more likely the case. Don't be so quick to assume that if someone does not agree with you that their views must be inherently evil and self-contradictory.

It sounds as if you are prescibing to me things that I did not say and then attempting to rebuke me for these things that you have made up on my account?
What I am saying is "free-will" is not Gods will, the Spirit of God and those who walk in a surrendered will to the Spirit are the only Christians that obey God as they should and according to the truth of the gospel.

 

[JB_Reformed Baptist]

JB,
Man is in complete bondage to sin and is incapable of anything, even faith. As Wesley put it, "The condition of man after the fall of Adam is such that he cannot turn and prepare himself, by his own natural strength and works, to faith, and calling upon God; wherefore we have no power to do good work, pleasant and acceptable to God, without the grace of God by Christ preventing [going before] us, that we may have a good will, and working with us, when we have that good will."

HiddenManna,

So are you suggesting that Arminians are being deceitful and they don't really believe what they claim to believe but are actually teaching salvation by works? Pehaps it is more likely that simply have not searched out the views in detail and are making a great many assumptions that are invalid and off base. I think this is more likely the case. Don't be so quick to assume that if someone does not agree with you that their views must be inherently evil and self-contradictory.

I like wesley. I have have the 'works of wesley'. But I would suggest that he not only 'cannot prepare and turn himself, to 'good works' etc but is wholly NOT inclined to do so. i.e. no desire nor thought whatsoever. SHALOM

 

[Wormwood]

I like wesley. I have have the 'works of wesley'. But I would suggest that he not only 'cannot prepare and turn himself, to 'good works' etc but is wholly NOT inclined to do so. i.e. no desire nor thought whatsoever. SHALOM

Yes, I think that Wesley would say the same. This is why he says, "without the grace of God by Christ preventing [going before] us, that we may have a good will." Thus, we do not have good will apart from the grace of Christ. The difference is that Wesley would not say that this grace is irresistable. Once touched by this grace, the individual has the capacity to cooperate with that grace by the goodwill instilled through the Spirit, or resist the working of that grace in their lives.

 

[JB_Reformed Baptist]

Yes, I think that Wesley would say the same. This is why he says, "without the grace of God by Christ preventing [going before] us, that we may have a good will." Thus, we do not have good will apart from the grace of Christ. The difference is that Wesley would not say that this grace is irresistable. Once touched by this grace, the individual has the capacity to cooperate with that grace by the goodwill instilled through the Spirit, or resist the working of that grace in their lives.

Thank you brother, for your polite and considered response. Indeed, wesley believed one could fall away as not to be redeemed any more.

 

[Wormwood]

What I am saying is "free-will" is not Gods will, the Spirit of God and those who walk in a surrendered will to the Spirit are the only Christians that obey God as they should and according to the truth of the gospel.

Well, what you said before had to do with the words of Arminians being vain and having no truth. Maybe you did not intend this to be directed toward all Arminians, if not, you werent very clear in that regard. Anyway, there are two issues with your post. First, Arminians do not believe "God's will" to be a detailed and charted plan for every action of a person's life. Thus, finding "God's will" for one's life is not about surrendering to a preprogrammed course for your life. You are inserting a Calvinistic concept into an Arminian view which doesnt mesh. The will of the Spirit is sanctification, peace, gentleness, kindness, self-control, love and so forth. I dont think God's will includes making sure you buy the house that is "God's will" for you and surrendering to that will. So, a person can have "free-will" and live in accordance with God's will. God sets our feet in spacious places. I can follow the Spirit and still have freedom. God's will does not destroy human freedom or individuality. For example. I see a hungry and suffering person on the side of the road begging for help. I can stop and take the person to McDonalds and buy them a hotel room for the night at the local Holiday Inn. Or, maybe I invite them to my home and feed them and put them in a guest bedroom. Or, maybe I help the person to a nearby ministry where they can find the help they need. Or, maybe I give them a Bible, tell them about the love of God and give them some money to help them. All of these ways express the will of God, "to love your neighbor as yourself" and none extract my freedom. Now if I believed that God had a specific heavenly checklist of exact things I should do in that situation and my role is to discover that will and follow that checklist, then yes, this would perhaps mean that I am losing some sense of freedom (of course I still have freedom if I can refuse to do good at all (which is again impossible from the Calvinist position)). Yet my point is very simple. I can do the will of God in a host of different ways. Dying to the flesh means that I die to the sinful desires of the flesh, not that I abandon the way God created me and search for divine signs of what I am to do each and every moment as perscribed by God's master plan for my life.

Thank you brother, for your polite and considered response. Indeed, wesley believed one could fall away as not to be redeemed any more.

Yes. But more than that, Wesley did not believe that prevenient grace was "saving grace." Calvinists would see any grace initiative of God toward a person as all encompassing. When God chooses you, you not only are infused with good will, but because that grace is irresistable you will embrace the gospel and persevere in it. Wesley believed that prevenient grace infused a person with God's goodness and ability to respond to the Gospel. However, this does not mean they will respond to the gospel. They have the capacity to, but they may reject it. Or, they may accept it and then later in life turn away from it. So, yes, a person can fall away, but they can also recieve prevenient grace and still not accept the gospel although they have the capacity to at that point in their life.

 

[JB_Reformed Baptist]

Well, what you said before had to do with the words of Arminians being vain and having no truth. Maybe you did not intend this to be directed toward all Arminians, if not, you werent very clear in that regard. Anyway, there are two issues with your post. First, Arminians do not believe "God's will" to be a detailed and charted plan for every action of a person's life. Thus, finding "God's will" for one's life is not about surrendering to a preprogrammed course for your life. You are inserting a Calvinistic concept into an Arminian view which doesnt mesh. The will of the Spirit is sanctification, peace, gentleness, kindness, self-control, love and so forth. I dont think God's will includes making sure you buy the house that is "God's will" for you and surrendering to that will. So, a person can have "free-will" and live in accordance with God's will. God sets our feet in spacious places. I can follow the Spirit and still have freedom. God's will does not destroy human freedom or individuality. For example. I see a hungry and suffering person on the side of the road begging for help. I can stop and take the person to McDonalds and buy them a hotel room for the night at the local Holiday Inn. Or, maybe I invite them to my home and feed them and put them in a guest bedroom. Or, maybe I help the person to a nearby ministry where they can find the help they need. Or, maybe I give them a Bible, tell them about the love of God and give them some money to help them. All of these ways express the will of God, "to love your neighbor as yourself" and none extract my freedom. Now if I believed that God had a specific heavenly checklist of exact things I should do in that situation and my role is to discover that will and follow that checklist, then yes, this would perhaps mean that I am losing some sense of freedom (of course I still have freedom if I can refuse to do good at all (which is again impossible from the Calvinist position)). Yet my point is very simple. I can do the will of God in a host of different ways. Dying to the flesh means that I die to the sinful desires of the flesh, not that I abandon the way God created me and search for divine signs of what I am to do each and every moment as perscribed by God's master plan for my life.


Yes. But more than that, Wesley did not believe that prevenient grace was "saving grace." Calvinists would see any grace initiative of God toward a person as all encompassing. When God chooses you, you not only are infused with good will, but because that grace is irresistable you will embrace the gospel and persevere in it. Wesley believed that prevenient grace infused a person with God's goodness and ability to respond to the Gospel. However, this does not mean they will respond to the gospel. They have the capacity to, but they may reject it. Or, they may accept it and then later in life turn away from it. So, yes, a person can fall away, but they can also recieve prevenient grace and still not accept the gospel although they have the capacity to at that point in their life.

So how long may an individual hang onto this pre-sanctification process, before it runs out. Are you thinking in terms of the sower and the seed?

Also, how many goes does one get before it's all too late to "take Jesus as one's lord and Savior"?

 

[HiddenManna]

It seems to me Armenians don't understand the biblical concept of 'free will' as they keep defining it by choice and yeah by their own ignorant and subjective experience. In reality one is not free if he is morally incapable of making the correct choice by divine standards and no-one has been able to do that without assistance from the LORD almighty both pre and post conversion.

The armenians don't believe in total depravity as they still hold onto at least in part, some good resides in them or else who would choose Jesus as Lord and savior. Yet the scriptures indicate our tenor of life before Christ was in darkness and the bend of our life was to self and self alone.

I'll stop there for now.

Of course this is true, they have not cast away their own strength and became weak, they have not become as fools to be made wise. They have not died to their own "free-will" at the Cross of our Lord. They yet go about to establish their own righteousness and call it "free-will" :wacko:

 

[Wormwood]

JB_,

Well, I don't think there is a formula to the moving of God's Spirit. Wesley relied very heavily on Augustine in his writings on God's prevenient grace. Owen writes, "Knowing all, God knows more than we do how much we are proportionally able to respond. Grace comes in a way fitting to our salvation. God does not coerce our willing, but reaches deeply into our willing to prompt, guide and enable it. The illuminating, wooing, and inward convicting of the will is God's own work."

He goes on to say, "Wesley did not have a passive, idle, lethargic, quietistic notion of saving grace. Its reception requires energetic work, earnest prayer, spirited study of Scripture, and active good works. It is not as if God zaps us with grace apart from our responsive cooperation. Every subsequent act of cooperating grace is premised on God's preceding grace, which elicits and requires free human responsiveness. ...God does not by fiat save us, but wishes to save us with our willing, cooperative action. If God is working in us so that we can work, we must work."

Augustine said, "He who made us without ourselves will not save us without ourselves."

BTW, thank you for your very kind and gracious attitude during this discussion. I appreciate your kind disagreements and questions.


HiddenManna,

You should be very cautious how you malign other children of God. We do not rely on our own righteousness...if we did we would not be Christian and would be guilty of proclaiming a false gospel. Is that what you are trying to say? Are we not Christian and are trampling the blood of Christ and leading people to eternal destruction? I don't know how else such words can be understood because no one is saved apart from the righteousness of Christ. Its fine if you adhere to the views of Calvin. Though I disagree with such a position and the implications of such with regards to the character of God, I would not dare accuse you of being a false teacher who is leading people to hell. You should develop the kind of doctrinal and spiritual maturity that can have disagreements with other believers on these issues without slandering them as being heretics who are leading people away from the righteousness of Christ. It is not true. You do not know me and you obviously do not know what I believe, so I would appreciate it if you would treat me the way you would want to be treated in this dialogue.

I have tremendous faith in the power of Christ's blood. The grace of God deserves all credit for anything good in me or anyone else. All my good works are empowered by his goodness that is instilled in my by his love and divine power. I deserve no credit for anything as all is from him and for him. This salvation begins now and the grace of God is at work in us to transform us in the present and we are called by faith to respond to this resurrection power at work within us. I believe that the rebukes, urgings and exhortations in Scripture are there because we must cooperate with what God is working in us. If God is going to do what he is going to do regardless, such rebukes and exhortations appear to be without purpose.

 

[HiddenManna]

HiddenManna,



You should be very cautious how you malign other children of God. We do not rely on our own righteousness...if we did we would not be Christian and would be guilty of proclaiming a false gospel. Is that what you are trying to say? Are we not Christian and are trampling the blood of Christ and leading people to eternal destruction?


Not sure how to respond to such a charge? Pulled out of thin air :huh:

If you cannot debate the issue, or you cannot contend with the truth I have presented, maybe you should consider that your postion is not a biblical one? "Free will" is the issue I have adressed and It is a very unbiblical postion for any Christian to attempt to defend. Now I have made no personal charges but I speak against such doctrines and they are based upon the error of the "pride of life" Man, thinking that by "self-will" they have the ability to please God. The Cross stands against this vain pride of man.

 

[Wormwood]

It seems the only one presenting ideas here is me and you are presenting accusations. If you have some scripture or arguments to present, please do. They would be a welcome change from broad sweeping condemnations and baseless claims that people who believe in free will are undermining the righteousness of Christ.

 

[JB_Reformed Baptist]

JB_,

Well, I don't think there is a formula to the moving of God's Spirit. Wesley relied very heavily on Augustine in his writings on God's prevenient grace. Owen writes, "Knowing all, God knows more than we do how much we are proportionally able to respond. Grace comes in a way fitting to our salvation. God does not coerce our willing, but reaches deeply into our willing to prompt, guide and enable it. The illuminating, wooing, and inward convicting of the will is God's own work."

He goes on to say, "Wesley did not have a passive, idle, lethargic, quietistic notion of saving grace. Its reception requires energetic work, earnest prayer, spirited study of Scripture, and active good works. It is not as if God zaps us with grace apart from our responsive cooperation. Every subsequent act of cooperating grace is premised on God's preceding grace, which elicits and requires free human responsiveness. ...God does not by fiat save us, but wishes to save us with our willing, cooperative action. If God is working in us so that we can work, we must work."

Augustine said, "He who made us without ourselves will not save us without ourselves."

BTW, thank you for your very kind and gracious attitude during this discussion. I appreciate your kind disagreements and questions.

Thank you. Behold, how good and how pleasant it is for brethren to dwell together in unity! Psalm 133.1

SHALOM





# I believe we can all conclude that the will is not free if the mind(soul/will/desires) is morally bent to corruption(sin). Until Christ vivified us on the day he spoke to us we were all in darkness and prisoners to sin. A man shackled is not a free man so a soul bound in darkness is not free. It's not until Christ sets us free are we indeed free. Praise ye the LORD!