Premillennialism contradicts scripture (1 Corinthians 15:50-54) by having mortal flesh and blood inheriting the kingdom of God when Jesus returns.
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I tend to believe this passage lines up with Rev 20.11+.
My thoughts we meet the Lord in the air, put on imperishable bodies, then Rev 19.1-8 kicks in, we get our fine linen,bright and clean, (?imperishables), we join the Lord as the armies of heaven, Rev 19.14, the battle is won, Rev 19.19-21.
He defeats the armies of Islam, the descendants of Ishmael and Esau.
Then the 7th day millenium begins, we rule and reign with Him for 1000 years. Rev 20.6, Rev 5.10, Rev 2.26+. Dan 2.44.
We get to rule over nations. Finally godly government under His reign for 1000 years, as promised in Heb 4.8 a Sabbath rest. Just what He wanted, first with Adam and Eve, then with Israelites, but now finally with a people called by His name. See you there?
I agree. It's quite clear to me that the following verses refer to the same event...
Matthew 25:41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
Revelation 20:15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.
I agree, except that it seems that you're taking the fine linen literally even though it indicates that the fine linen represents "the righteous acts of the saints". It seems that you think the fine linen represents our immortal bodies.
Revelation 19:8 And to her it was granted to be arrayed in fine linen, clean and bright, for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints.
Anyway, I do agree otherwise.
Whoa. Where are you getting this from? The following describes who He is defeating...
Revelation 19:17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in the midst of heaven, “Come and gather together for the [h]supper of the great God, 18 that you may eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, both small and great.”
This does not say "the armies of Islam", it says "all people, free and slave, both small and great". That covers more than just "the armies of Islam".
Scripture never speaks of the millennium as the 7th day. This is why I point out that I base my doctrine on clear, straightforward scriptures. There are definitely no clear, straight forward scriptures that refer to the thousand years as being the 7th day of history.
I asked you "who are the ones that you think will populate the earth at that time with mortal flesh and blood bodies?". You didn't answer that question. In other words, who are the ones you think we will rule and reign over at that time? If the sheep all have immortal bodies and the goats are all cast into everlasting fire at that time, what mortals does that leave to populate the earth at that time? I don't see how Matthew 25:31-46 allows for that, so please answer that question. Keep in mind that Matthew 25:31-46 is said to happen when Jesus comes with His angels, so it's a passage relating directly to something that will happen in relation to Jesus's second coming.
I agree, they are, I sort off intimated that in the reply, I thought.
Rev 19.14 shows were they fit in the final battle.
So, we can't go by what is actually written in Revelation 19:17-18 then? Why not? It says "all people, free and slave, small and great" but that somehow equates to the armies of Islam?
My reply to that is one that im still considering tho im happy with my thoughts at this time.. but am deliberating further.
My question to others has always been, if everyone is killed in Armageddon (which is dont believe- its only kings, general, soldiers etc at Armageddon), then who are Jedus are we reigning over? The answers in get back are limited, and dont seem right.
There are 3 instances in scripture of those who may not be believers who enter the millennium. Rom 2.15, 1 Cor 7 14, Zech 14.16, Isaiah 66.19.
Does seem to be a huge number. So currently my view is when the Lord returns and the final battle is dealt with, and the time of Jacob is completed and the remnant of Israel is saved (Zech 13)
We are with Him in imperishable bodies as is He, everyone else rolls on over into the 7th millennium just like we did for the previous 6 millenniums.
Our job will be what God desired in the first place with Adam and Eve, but they failed. Then the Israelites, they failed, but now He has a people to be priests unto God. Rev 5.10 You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God, and they will reign on earth.
You mentioned "only kings, generals, soldiers etc at Armageddon". Is there some reason why you don't include the reference to "all people, free and slave, both small and great"?
Revelation 19:17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in the midst of heaven, “Come and gather together for the supper of the great God, 18 that you may eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, both small and great.”
At the very least, you should acknowledge that "all people, free and slave, both small and great" who are at Armageddon (if Armageddon was a literal place on earth) will be killed. Do you?
Everyone. Do you understand that Jesus reigns now over "all principality and power and might and dominion, and every name that is named"?
Ephesians 1:19 and what is the exceeding greatness of His power toward us who believe, according to the working of His mighty power 20 which He worked in Christ when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places, 21 far above all principality and power and might and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in that which is to come.
22 And He put all things under His feet, and gave Him to be head over all things to the church,
Since we sit with Him spiritually in heavenly places now, we share in His authority over all things.
Ephesians 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved ), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
Romans 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law 13 (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified; 14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, 15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) 16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.
How are you concluding that Romans 2:15 could be talking about unbelievers entering the millennium? I'm not seeing that there at all. Jesus said that "He who is not with me is against me" (Matthew 12:30). He always placed people in two groups. Everyone is either saved or lost. Sheep or goats. Wheat or tares. Righteous or wicked. And so on. There is no third group that are unbelievers and not saved but will be allowed to survive His return.
2 Thessalonians 1:7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
What unbelievers doesn't fit the description of "those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ"? None. Jesus will be taking vengeance on all unbelievers when He returns.
How does 1 Cor 7:14 support your theory that unbelievers will populate the millennium? I'm not seeing that at all. As for Zechariah 14:16, what is your interpretation of that? Do you believe in the reinstatement of animal sacrifices which is what would happen if Zechariah 14 related to the return of Christ and was taken literally?
How do you think that Isaiah 66:19 supports your view? Didn't Jesus say the end will come once the gospel has been preached in all the world to all nations (Matthew 24:14)? So, He will return at that point, right? How does that line up with your understanding of Isaiah 66:19?
We are priests unto God right now and are on the earth right now.
Revelation 1:5 and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler over the kings of the earth. To Him who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood, 6 and has made us kings and priests to His God and Father, to Him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.
You need to be able to reconcile your view with passages like Matthew 25:31-46, 2 Thess 1:7-10 and 2 Peter 3:10-12 and it's clear to me that this cannot be done with the Premil view.
I'd definitely expect it to be an Islamic army, the
We can and do. But everything relates to what's happening on Earth. If this is the period prior to the coming of the Lord, then there will be signs. Many of those are in scripture. Some assign them to the past, and may miss out on what God is saying. Some may believe it won't happen, for me, it COULD be close and I find it interesting the descendants of Ishmael and Esau appear to be throwing off the yoke. Gen 27.39,40
So, to be clear, you equate "all people, free and slave, small and great" to an Islamic army? It would be a very strange way of referring to an Islamic army as "all people, free and slave, small and great". Do people who are slaves and people who are small (in significance) sound like people who are part of an army?
Yep a bit like World War 1, Word War 2, Vietnam, Afghanistan, Iraq.
Most of us weren't there. Who was killed, Kings, Generals, Soldiers. This is a family battle, which family, the family of Abraham,Isaac and Jacob.
You seem to have missed my point. I'm not sure how carefully you are reading my posts. The text in Revelation 19:17-18 references "all people, slave and free, small and great". You are saying you expect me to believe that slaves and those who are small in significance take part in war? No, they do not. You seem to not want to acknowledge that more than just "kings, generals, soldiers" are referenced in that text.
Its been that way since the beginning of time. If you employed you probably are a slave, but think not. Illusion. If we ain't Kings, Generals, a few mighty, riders and horses, slaves all that's left.
You are just not getting the point.
Revelation 19:17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in the midst of heaven, “Come and gather together for the [a]supper of the great God, 18 that you may eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, both small and great.”
Notice that the kings, captains, mighty men, etc. are mentioned separately from "all people, free and slave, both small and great". So, John is saying it includes those who would be considered great but expands beyond just them.
You know I'm an Amillennialist, right? Do you know what Amillennialists believe? After all unbelievers are destroyed, then the judgment will occur, as described in Matthew 25:31-46 and Revelation 20:11-15. Believers will inherit eternal life in the kingdom prepared for us from the foundation of the world at that time in the new heavens and new earth (Matt 25:31-34,46, Rev 21:1-5) and unbelievers will be cast into everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels (also called the lake of fire) for everlasting punishment (Matt 25:41,46, Rev 20:15).
I’m a little confused by the framing of the OP, especially since you acknowledged at the end that not all Premillennialists believe the sheep enter the millennium in a mortal state. Given that, does it still stand that Premillennialism contradicts 1 Corinthians 15:50-54, especially if some Premillennialists hold to a view where the righteous sheep enter the millennium in an immortal state?
I think the way you initially framed the argument, suggesting that all Premillennialists hold this view, creates a bit of a misunderstanding. If we’re talking about some Premils, then that’s fine, but it seems misleading to present it as a contradiction with Premillennialism in general. Why not just say from the get go “Some Premils” instead of painting with such a broad brush? That way, the critique would be more accurate and wouldn’t give the false impression that this is the mainstream view among all Premillennialists.
Jesus taught us heaven and earth pass away, at His second coming.
He also told us we will be like angels in the resurrection of the dead, i.e. no marriage, means no babies.
God told us the former things pass away, as does Paul
1 Cor 7
29 But this I say, brethren, the time is short, so that from now on even those who have wives should be as though they had none, 30 those who weep as though they did not weep, those who rejoice as though they did not rejoice, those who buy as though they did not possess, 31 and those who use this world as not misusing it. For the form of this world is passing away.
Matthew 24
32 “Now learn this parable from the fig tree: When its branch has already become tender and puts forth leaves, you know that summer is near. 33 So you also, when you see all these things, know that [e]it is near—at the doors! 34 Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away.
No One Knows the Day or Hour
36 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of [f]heaven, but My Father only. 37 But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 38 For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39 and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 40 Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left. 42 Watch therefore, for you do not know what [g]hour your Lord is coming. 43 But know this, that if the master of the house had known what [h]hour the thief would come, he would have watched and not allowed his house to be broken into. 44 Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.Luk 21
The Coming of the Son of Man
25 “And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring; 26 men’s hearts failing them from fear and the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth, for the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 27 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28 Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near.”The Parable of the Fig Tree
29 Then He spoke to them a parable: “Look at the fig tree, and all the trees. 30 When they are already budding, you see and know for yourselves that summer is now near. 31 So you also, when you see these things happening, know that the kingdom of God is near. 32 Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all things take place. 33 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away.Rev 21
Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. 2 Then I, [a]John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God. 4 And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.”
5 Then He who sat on the throne said, “Behold, I make all things new.” And He said to me, “Write, for these words are true and faithful.”
6 And He said to me, “It[c] is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely to him who thirsts. 7 He who overcomes [d]shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son. 8 But the cowardly, [e]unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”
The UNBELEIVING go into the Lake that burns with fire. Means they are not going to be around with the saints, after the resurrection and judgment.
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