Present-Day "Dreams And Visions"

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Hidden In Him

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What gifts are you seeking?

Personal.
And what is the true motive for wanting these particular gifts.

To fulfill my calling.
What gifts do you already have, or experienced, even once?

Again that's a little personal. Not that I don't wish to talk about it, but that's just a bit more of my business than I care to be discussing on an open forum atm.
Before coming to Christ, grace was unmerited favor, for He died for us while we were yet sinners. Get that? Yet sinners? After repentance we received the gift of the Holy Spirit that turns grace into the power of God to no longer be a slave to sin.

Yes, but you don't believe that grace continues to operate in the life of a believer even after they get saved?
 
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VictoryinJesus

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I think we are all on a journey from being born again as spiritual children to maturing into spiritual adults. I think nearly all Christians are carnal when they first come to Christ, hence the deplorable state that a lot of the New Testament congregations were in. But grace is there, helping us in our weakness. If carnal Christians were not saved, you would have Paul and the other NT writers writing to a whole LOT of unsaved people.

Makes me think of: 1 Corinthians 8:9-12 But take heed lest by any means this liberty of yours become a stumblingblock to them that are weak. [10] For if any man see thee which hast knowledge sit at meat in the idol's temple, shall not the conscience of him which is weak be emboldened to eat those things which are offered to idols; [11] And through thy knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died? [12] But when ye sin so against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, ye sin against Christ.

Concerning the meat...when they needed milk being fed as babes in Christ. “Babes” newborns. Consider also when Christ told even His disciples He had many things to tell them but they were not able to bear it yet. To nurture and edify babes to become mature and grown up in Christ so they are able to bear ...is His will, is it not?
 
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CharismaticLady

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Personal.
As in Mark 16:17-18? Yes, those are part of the armor of God.

To fulfill my calling.

How do you know what your calling is?

Again that's a little personal. Not that I don't wish to talk about it, but that's just a bit more of my business than I care to be discussing on an open forum atm.

I don't see it that way. So many people (Cessationists) believe they don't exist, so to validate they do by operating in them is to the glory of God, not self.

Yes, but you don't believe that grace continues to operate in the life of a believer even after they get saved?

The power of God? Are you kidding? Did you know that the Gifts of the Spirit are also called grace gifts, Charisma gifts, and power gifts.
 

VictoryinJesus

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Wait for what? What He tells you to pray (a rhema).


John 15:7
7 If you abide in Me, and My words (rhemas) abide in you, you will ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you.

”a rhema”
John 8:37-38 I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you. [38] I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.
 
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Hidden In Him

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Nah, different stuff. And stop digging, LoL.
Yes, those are part of the armor of God.

? Long discussion, but I disagree.
How do you know what your calling is?

I just know...

My
, but we are digging today. I feel like somehow I've been taken over to the psychologist's couch. :)
I don't see it that way. So many people (Cessationists) believe they don't exist, so to validate they do by operating in them is to the glory of God, not self.

Yeah, but I've been there, done that and don't feel like it again right now.
The power of God? Are you kidding? Did you know that the Gifts of the Spirit are also called grace gifts, Charisma gifts, and power gifts.

If course. But I was talking specifically about grace regarding our sins, i.e. "if we sin, we have an Advocate with the Father."
 

CharismaticLady

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”a rhema”
John 8:37-38 I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you. [38] I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.

That is because the Pharisees who he was talking to will not abide in Him. You must be abiding in Christ. That is the number one criteria.
 
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Hidden In Him

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Exactly. Carnal Christians do not see it that way and why they are apathetic towards sin in general.

Then we are defining "carnal Christians" differently. I regard several of the Christian congregations that Paul was writing to as carnal, especially the Corinthians and the Galatians. He said they were carnal himself. But they were not so carnal that they were no longer seeking to obey God and continue walking the path. If anything, they were too zealous, and their zeal was being misdirected. The Corinthians were zealous to "BE" somebody in leadership, so they were in division with one another, and the Galatians were getting duped into keeping Jewish law, which in turn was likewise causing them to "bite and devour" one another.

Were they unsaved? No.

There are, however, some Christians who are so carnal that they are indeed not even saved. You must make a distinction between the two. Those Paul was writing to were not unsaved people or he would have addressed them far differently.
 

VictoryinJesus

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If you are mostly abiding in Jesus, then He will prune those areas of poor fruit off of you. But start waiting on God and tell Him you only want His will in your life. Then listen. If you have a habit of praying amiss, then stop praying your own will, and start praising God instead. And thank Him all day long whenever you see anything "good."

here is the problem. Prayer is always against my will or it is amiss. The passage concerning being in subjection to the Father of spirits that you may live. God contrast fathers after the world who correct their children to go headlong running in to obtain a world of iniquity and death...correcting after their own pleasure which is to obtain the very thing God wants His children to come out of and be removed from. The Father of spirits corrects for His children’s profit in bringing them out not driving them back in. He corrects to bring His children out of flesh into spirit that they may live. As the verses say “train up a child in the way they should go and they will not depart from the way”. It is God who trains a child to not depart from Him(that way being Christ) but instead to depart from evil. It is God the Father who does not provoke His children to wrath but instead brings His children out from under the wrath upon that which is perishing. @CharismaticLady you say your prayers align with the Fathers always and I’m not here to call you a liar but find it hard to believe when only God knows what is needed to bring a child out from a world of iniquity hence being in subjection to the Father that you may live. As I mentioned Mary...to align with God would have aligned in prayer for her son to be delivered and lifted up. Maybe Mary did but surely it was against her will in the flesh in wanting more time with her Son and not wanting to bear what was going to unfold before Lions. To align with God over my family and children and grandchildren is submitting to: those who seek God are of a broken and contrite heart...that is a hard saying. Blessing is ...praying for one to come out of the world which is perishing...not pushing them to obtain it....another hard saying. If those are the things God tells you to pray and you obey and align...then yes I’m sure He does give you what you ask for.
 

CharismaticLady

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If anything, they were too zealous, and their zeal was being misdirected.

There is no such thing as too zealous! If you are talking about the gifts, they are irrevocable. What they mostly needed with them was instruction. Their issue was of the heart. In their heart they weren't zealous at all. They were carnal, and if they had not heeded Paul's warning, they would have been lost. Same with the Galatians.
 

CharismaticLady

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Prayer is always against my will or it is amiss.

Hmmm. What are you saying?

You see, when you abide in Jesus and wait on God to tell you what to pray, when He does, you also receive the "gift" of faith in 1 Corinthians 12. Just as in John 15:7, the word, "word" is not logos, it is rhema, it is the same in Romans 17:10! Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the rhema of God.

Look at Psalms 37
Delight yourself also in the Lord,
And He shall give you the desires of your heart. (These are not carnal desires, but His desires He puts in you that become your own. So you are never praying against your own will or praying amiss.)
5 Commit your way to the Lord,
Trust also in Him,
And He shall bring it to pass.
6 He shall bring forth your righteousness as the light,
And your justice as the noonday.
7 Rest in the Lord, and wait patiently for Him

you say your prayers align with the Fathers always and I’m not here to call you a liar but find it hard to believe when only God knows what is needed to bring a child out from a world of iniquity hence being in subjection to the Father that you may live.

For one thing He already brought me out of the world of iniquity, hasn't He you? Here again, is another area of concern, and that is our sanctification. Most preachers unbelievably teach that once we are justified of our past sins, that God starts a process of sanctification for the rest of our lives to drive sin out of our lives. The error there is that once you are cleansed of all your past sin, you are a clean and holy vessel. You ARE sanctified. And if this is true and your justification was sure, then you receive the Holy Spirit and are no longer a slave to sin, but are in the Spirit to walk therein. We become partakers of the divine nature.

Our life in the Spirit of Jesus is no longer about sin, it is about becoming more and more like Christ. Putting on His mind, and His love. Absorb 2 Peter 1. The meaning of grace after justification is the power of God. It was only unmerited favor before Christ, when He died for us when we were YET sinners. Yet implies, but no more.

2 Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord, 3 as His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue, 4 by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. (You see, sanctification has already happened.) (The "process" now is not sanctification, but glorification.

5 But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, 6 to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, 7 to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love. 8 For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins.

10 Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; 11 for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
 

VictoryinJesus

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You see, when you abide in Jesus and wait on God to tell you what to pray, when He does, you also receive the "gift" of faith in 1 Corinthians 12. Just as in John 15:7, the word, "word" is not logos, it is rhema, it is the same in Romans 17:10! Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the rhema of God.

agree Faith comes by “Hearing” the voice of God, and hearing the voice of God by the Word sent out from God. We would probably disagree though on what the gift of speaking in tongues is ...

Look at Psalms 37
Delight yourself also in the Lord,
And He shall give you the desires of your heart. (These are not carnal desires, but His desires He puts in you that become your own. So you are never praying against your own will or praying amiss.)
5 Commit your way to the Lord,
Trust also in Him,
And He shall bring it to pass.

agree they are no longer carnal desires ...so get what you are saying but, still, there is something outward which wars against that which is inward. Romans 7:22-23 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: [23] But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

James 4:5-7 Do ye think that the scripture saith in vain, The spirit that dwelleth in us lusteth to envy? [6] But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble. [7] Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.

You ARE sanctified. And if this is true and your justification was sure, then you receive the Holy Spirit and are no longer a slave to sin, but are in the Spirit to walk therein. We become partakers of the divine nature.

which brings up again: Hebrews 12:9-11 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live? [10] For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.(As you said of the divine nature) [11] Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.

Maybe you are just way far ahead ...if God tells you what to pray and answers those prayers then Amen. what a blessing to have prayers answered..wouldn’t argue against answered prayers...only Questioned who was being spoken of and glorified.
 

Helen

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So do you think those carnal "Christians" will go to heaven? Can you keep failing the temptations and tests and trials that are for building your faith?


Yes.

Wise and foolish VIRGINS etc

They are not of those who enter into the Bride of Christ realm, or the sonship realm ...but they are still "in heaven" ..they lose the reward of good and faithful servant.
Their works failed them, in carnality their flesh failed them...

There is a difference between servanthood, sonship and Bridehood.
People will argue the point and want to believe that we are all one jolly glob in heaven ...
Salvation is settled. The victory of running the race is not...

@Hidden In Him
You probably don't hold quite the same belief's as I do...but it makes for an interesting thread though. :D
 

Hidden In Him

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There is no such thing as too zealous! If you are talking about the gifts, they are irrevocable. What they mostly needed with them was instruction. Their issue was of the heart. In their heart they weren't zealous at all. They were carnal, and if they had not heeded Paul's warning, they would have been lost. Same with the Galatians.

CL, if there is no such thing as being too zealous, how do you interpret Galatians 4:17-18?

17 They zealously affect you, but not well; yea, they would exclude you, that ye might affect them.
18 But it is good to be zealously affected always in a good thing, and not only when I am present with you.