Preterism is Wrong

[Waiting on him]

Just asking about people who continue to say Jesus Christ is coming but die never seeing it.

Lol, this will continue for millennia to come!

 

[Waiting on him]

I've been bothered by the Olivet Discourse for many years, likely because of the influence Dispensationalist Futurism had over my thinking about it. Also, I was raised up in the Church, and was never given any real background for it, so I developed all kinds of false thinking about it.

But over the years I developed a system of interpretation that ignores all the popular views out there, but takes seriously all of the prophetic schools, being willing to separate each school into distinct and separate ideas. I found some truths in Preterism, though I'm not a Preterist. I found some truths in Futurism, and I am a Futurist. But I discarded some of the Dispensationalist elements that made *everything* about the future. And I recognized that some prophecies were historically fulfilled.

And then I began to learn what themes run through the entire Bible consistently, so that I understood biblical language properly. The Abrahamic Covenant and its specific promises became huge to me. Instead of spiritualizing "Israel" into the NT International Church, I found I could only consistently interpret OT prophecies by keeping Israel as literal Israel. So that aspect of Dispensationalism I could accept.

Finally, ignoring all of the popular views out there I took seriously exactly what Paul said, in light of the biblical language and in light of the biblical themes. It was not difficult, then, to understand the Olivet Discourse.

The O.D. was just one more prophetic reference to Israel's fall from grace and ultimate exile. Jesus said that in rejecting him the nation would be cast out of their land until they came back to God in repentance. That is exactly what the Prophets had said to Israel about the approaching Babylonian Captivity.

Luke 21, to answer your question, describes the "Great Tribulation" as a *Jewish Punishment,* and not the Antichristian Tribulation we hear so often. It is a time when Israel is set aside and loses their Kingdom to the Roman Nation, who then takes up the mantel of God's Kingdom. So while the Gospel is spread throughout the Gentile world, Israel languishes in her Diaspora.

This is exactly what Luke said:
Luke 21.20 “When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city. 22 For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written. 23 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! There will be great distress in the land and wrath against this people. 24 They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

You also state in your post that you began taking Paul seriously.

Paul said there was no longer any such thing as a gentile?

 

[Truth7t7]

No. It’s because you have a closed mind.

Pretersm is a farce, found no place in scripture

Matthew 24:15 (Daniel's AOD) Matthew 24:21(The Great Tribulation) these are future events unfulfilled

Revelation chapter 13 (The Beast) will be a future literal human man, proclaiming to be God Messuah on earth

Revelation chapter 11 will see (Two Witnesses) that will be literal prophets returned in physical bodies, that will bring literal plagues upon a literal world

 

[Truth7t7]

Lol, this will continue for millennia to come!

I Disagree, 60 million unborn being killed annually in the world (Abortion)?

Same Sex Marriage in a majority of countries in the world?

This present earth has surpassed the times of Noah and Sodom and Gomorrah

It can't be much longer and the Antichrist will take his seat in Jerusalem proclaiming to be God Messiah to the world

Jesus Christ Is My Lord, Amen!

 

[covenantee]

Your claim is "False"

The Great Tribulation seen in Luke 21 starts when Daniel's AOD takes place, this is a "Future" event unfulfilled, and it didn't take place in 70AD with Roman Armies destroying Jerusalem as you suggest, your teachings and beliefs are nothing more than standard reformed preterist eschatology

You flunked grammar.

Again.

 

[Gandalf-]

I was raised up in the Church, and was never given any real background for it, so I developed all kinds of false thinking about it.

And when exactly did you come to believe any of your false thinking had ceased exactly? LOL, sorry, I couldn't help myself, lol

I did enjoy your post though, because I do love my comedy so. Your post was like for me, to loosley paraphrase "She barks, she drools, she sleeps above her covers, ......Four Feet above her covers!" So I made some popcorn, read your post, and occasionally was What the? ...??. lol again.

But over the years I developed a system of interpretation that ignores all the popular views out there, but takes seriously all of the prophetic schools,

As well as abandoning all logic and reason. Sorry again, just having a little fun. But in truth you run back and forth quickly all over the place, and as such post a great deal, all jumbled up, that I do indeed disagree with. I felt like I was in Jumanji waiting for my map to fill in, which it never did unfortunately.

But over the years I developed a system of interpretation that ignores all the popular views out there, but takes seriously all of the prophetic schools, being willing to separate each school into distinct and separate ideas. I found some truths in Preterism, though I'm not a Preterist. I found some truths in Futurism, and I am a Futurist. But I discarded some of the Dispensationalist elements that made *everything* about the future. And I recognized that some prophecies were historically fulfilled.

And then I began to learn what themes run through the entire Bible consistently,

So again, that is your interpretation, that you took all of the prophetic schools seriously, basically to loosley paraphrase and combine the spirit of what I believe you were saying, in your being willing to incorporate portions of their various views together into a cohesive whole. etc.., You make a great many assumptions, which you then assume you are able to correctly put all of the pieces back together, after you had broken them apart, etc.., And you assume and adopt a great many erroneous and blatantly false ideas - which you incorrectly hide under an umbrella, so to speak, that because you have taken pieces from here and there, and therefore believe you are not only correct, but believe you are able to correctly both see and understand the bigger picture indeed.


And indeed prophecy has always at times been split, and always has had pieces which apply here, while other pieces can apply here, with some pieces having multiple applications, some litteral, while others symbolically in type. And so bits and pieces of what you say may sound reasonable here and there, but your defining of themes, and theme breaks, and parsing, etc.., etc.., etc., is often wrong. Your interpretations and conclusions are often wrong.

An example of a partial fulfillment of prophecy, in Type, to show again partially as an example of what will come to be fulfilled fully and in truth to the complete and full understanding of the prophecy as actually given occured during WW I.

Now, again, this is only a partial fulfillment in type, meaning for example, ( and as such of course is incorrect, obviously in many details - as again, it is only a Type for what is to come. )

The battle of Armageddon, being the final battle of the Antichrist and his followers, against Israel and Christ, will end before it even begins, when the Antichrist and his armies are suddenly met, and defeated by the return of Christ.

And it was so named, because the Antichrist will gather the armies of the world together at the Mound Of Megiddo, or Har ( mound ) Megiddo in Hebrew, to attempt from that rallying point to go down to Jerusalem and destroy Israel and God's plans for the last time, only to be destroyed themselves with the 2nd coming of Christ.

And so, during WW I, at one point British General Allenby ( as a Type for the Antichrist symbolically here only, ) gathered at the Mound Of Megiddo, to gather the armies / kings of the world, ( again only symbolically, as he had in fact gathered mixed representatives of the Allied armies from the world, who fought on the Allies side, ) ......to go down to Jerusalem to route those who were there in defence ( again symbolically of the same attitude of battle which will be attempted against Israel - but in Allenby's case he gathered of the Allied Armies at the Mound Of Megiddo, where he them employed his plan to have Allied planes fly over Jerusalem, to scare it's Muslim defenders at that time, who were scared, and fled, and General Allenby with his armies rode into, and took Jerusalem. )


And thus a complete fulfillment in Type ( because what is fulfilled i Type, doesn't actually fulfill a prophecy, but again only does so in Type. )

 

[Gandalf-]

No. It’s because you have a closed mind.

Thank you for the compliment. When one is convinced, and holds to said convictions, then of course they should have a closed mind on those matters. A closed mind on things one is fully convinced of is actually a good thing.

However, I do not know everything, and am therefore open minded, and am capable of being convinced of new things. Preterism is simply one area in which I am fully convinced that it is purely demonic.

And that does not mean one can not believe a prophecy is split, and therefore partially fulfilled both here, and there, and some of it can be symbolic, and or spiritual, while the other side of the split can be literal, and futurist in it's intent.

But what does that have to do with the fact that I am allowed to Believe Preterism is demonic? And if my believing that Preterism is demonic, makes me a bigot to your mind, or anyone else's then so be it. Being called names comes with the territory. And Preterism is Demonic!

 

[Randy Kluth]

You also state in your post that you began taking Paul seriously.

Paul said there was no longer any such thing as a gentile?

Well, I've *always* taken Paul seriously. I've never *not* believed in his apostolic authority. What I meant is that instead of passing over his statements as if he may have meant something I didn't understand, or instead of viewing his statements as "symbolic," I began to cling onto strong concepts that I saw were already present in the OT Scriptures as a regular biblical theme. I began to understand "where Paul was coming from," and latch onto that in the face of so many mere "opinions."

I don't know what you mean by saying Paul denied there are "Gentiles?" What he indicated is that the former division under the Law between Israel and pagan nations is no longer relevant when those other nationalities and other ethnicities become Christian. The Jew-Gentile distinction no longer holds in that sense--not that ethnicities and nationalities no longer exist!

 

[Randy Kluth]

Ok so how do we know the times of the Gentiles wasn’t fulfilled?

In the biblical sense of time for the Jewish nation to obtain fulfillment they have to pass out of the stage of Diaspora and into the stage of national restoration, "never more to be destroyed as a nation." That hasn't happened yet.

While Israel languishes in her national punishment, God is reaching out to complete the Abrahamic promise of many nations of faith by evangelizing the world. That process is nearly completed by virtue of the fact Roman Christianity has branched out across the earth in the form of "Western values."

And now, after many centuries of "Gentile Christianity," these Christian nations are going the same route that Israel did, falling into apostasy and judgment. The "Gentile Age" is coming to an end in our day, as we see Western values changed by "Progressivism" and "Liberalism." Christianity has lost its popular appeal, as citizens of these former Christian nations have acquired as taste for pagan liberties.

 

[Randy Kluth]

And when exactly did you come to believe any of your false thinking had ceased exactly? LOL, sorry, I couldn't help myself, lol

I didn't say I believed I had "false thinking." I said I had been programmed to read certain Scriptures a certain way that never really seemed cogent and didn't give me real satisfaction that I understood them properly.

So again, that is your interpretation, that you took all of the prophetic schools seriously, basically to loosley paraphrase and combine the spirit of what I believe you were saying, in your being willing to incorporate portions of their various views together into a cohesive whole. etc..,

Yes, you got that right. Most Christians, because they are indeed Christians, usually have at least a piece of the truth.

The battle of Armageddon, being the final battle of the Antichrist and his followers, against Israel and Christ, will end before it even begins, when the Antichrist and his armies are suddenly met, and defeated by the return of Christ.

Well yes, but the Battle of Armageddon will be preceded by Antichrist's 3.5 year reign of terror. That isn't to be taken lightly. Christians are encouraged to resist and to overcome in faith.

And thus a complete fulfillment in Type ( because what is fulfilled i Type, doesn't actually fulfill a prophecy, but again only does so in Type. )

Yes, I'm familiar with "types." But they are often used to avoid making a prophecy stick to a particular historical fulfillment, so that it loosely fits anywhere one wishes to put it. I'm now much more literal than that. I do see foreshadowings in which prophetic fulfillments typify a greater climactic fulfillment. But these foreshadowings have their own literal fulfillment in history, whereas eschatological prophecy is only fulfilled at the end of the age.

If you get over the artificiality and silliness I think we could have a decent conversation? Brothers don't try to take the mickey out of one another....

 

[Gandalf-]

My apologies, I was as you said, just being a little silly. And even said sorry to you, but was just poking a little fun at you for fun sake. I was not feeling well, and couldn't sleep, and just was in mood for a little fun, and so took out my inner Bugs Bunny, for a little walk.

However I did have a bit of a serious conversation with you as well. And it is often true we can't always get in a person's head, and sometimes miss what they were saying. We thought what they said was simple and straight forwards, ad they thought the same, however we both had a different meaning and conclusion in mind, and therefore what was said might not have been what was intended.

Now I was obviously not saying that General Allenby was the Antichrist. Nor was I discussing the entire life and career of the Antichrist. I was merely showing how prophecy fulfillment in Type, as a symbolic fulfillment to show in part what the actual fulfillment will br like, and or to foreshadow that God is reconfirming that indeed their will be a literal futurist fulfilment to come.

And so, in "Type," during WW I, British General Allenby gathered some of the various armies of the allies, ( agai symbolising the armies of the world as well in type, ) at the Mound of Megiddo, to await his ploy to have allied planes fly over Jerusalem, to scare it's defenders out, and then descended with his armies upon Jerusalem, and in fact thus successfully captured Jerusalem ---- A perfect symbolic personification of the Battle Of Armageddon, as the Antichrist [ will sell his followers as to how it will go - lying to them all along knowing full well he loses at that battle, but needs to lie to and deceive his followers, to keep any of them from repentance, and keep them all lost ] - In typological fulfillment, but in this case, the Type demonstrates how he will fool his followers to their own doom as well.

And so while by no means perfect as how the battle will really go, because if it were a perfect fulfillment in Type, then General Allenby would have had to have lost in his bid to capture Jerusalem. No it was a Perfect Fulfillment In Type from the perspective on how the Antichrist will sell the battle of Armageddon to his followers and thus likewise they will believe it to go.

And so biblical prophecy fulfilled in Type, is a mini. or partial fulfillment in Type only, to demonstrate truths or details if you will, that we may not have contemplated ourselves, but which becomes quite obvious if we think about it.

And so a partial symbolic fulfilment in Type, to show us motives and details, etc.., which we might not have contemplated, but which would have to be true - also prove that these partial symbolic fulfillments in Type, prove, again in a partial witness this time, prove that the prophecy is real, and is to come, and will be most real in it's final fulfilment to come.

And likewise Jesus's sermons and prophecy talking symbolically about the destruction of the temple of his body, use language by Jesus which sounds like a physical temple of stone, while really talking bout his body - which then makes some people angry - if anyone even suggests it could even mean in Type, the destruction of the temple in 70 AD, which in turn would be symbolic in type of the destruction of a future temple as well, which obviously could not be destroyed, until the 2nd temple was destroyed, for a new temple to have to be built so as in the future to be destroyed itself.

And so to symbolize a nearly 2,000 year temple destruction, and quickly came scattering of an unbelieving Israel, for the prophetic fulfillment of a return / reestablishing of Israel, for the sake of the end times remnant, and for the sake of the end times remnant fulfilling their end times prophetic role.

People go nuts if you suggest split / multiple-partial fulfillments, as if such would negate the main fulfillment to come. We, our bodies, are the 3rd Temple, and the physical temple of stone to come is the 4rth Temple.

And what makes Preterists Clueless on this point alone, is that the 2nd Temple needed to be destroyed, because the church is now the 3rd Temple, ....And the Temple to come for Israel to be a part of the final fulfillment of prophecy will be the 4rth temple.

Preterists are nuts, because they can't even contemplate the destruction of the 2nd temple, for the Church Age 3rd Temple, And the end of the Church Age / time of the Gentiles, 4rth Temple, for the sake of the restored end times Israel.

Restored End Times Israel is for the sake of their Faithful Witnesses, and the Remnant - Who Will Not Recognize Christ Until his Very Return When They Will Mourn For He Whom they Pierced.


Preterists Can Not See Partial As Well As In Type, And Futurist Fulfillments Because They Are Blind!

 

[Timtofly]

The battle of Armageddon, being the final battle of the Antichrist and his followers, against Israel and Christ, will end before it even begins, when the Antichrist and his armies are suddenly met, and defeated by the return of Christ.

And it was so named, because the Antichrist will gather the armies of the world together at the Mound Of Megiddo, or Har ( mound ) Megiddo in Hebrew, to attempt from that rallying point to go down to Jerusalem and destroy Israel and God's plans for the last time, only to be destroyed themselves with the 2nd coming of Christ.

And so, during WW I, at one point British General Allenby ( as a Type for the Antichrist symbolically here only, ) gathered at the Mound Of Megiddo, to gather the armies / kings of the world, ( again only
symbolically, as he had in fact gathered mixed representatives of the Allied armies from the world, who fought on the Allies side, ) ......to go down to Jerusalem to route those who were there in defence ( again symbolically of the same attitude of battle which will be attempted against Israel - but in Allenby's case he gathered of the Allied Armies at the Mound Of Megiddo, where he them employed his plan to have Allied planes fly over Jerusalem, to scare it's Muslim defenders at that time, who were scared, and fled, and General Allenby with his armies rode into, and took Jerusalem. )


And thus a complete fulfillment in Type ( because what is fulfilled i Type, doesn't actually fulfill a prophecy, but again only does so in Type. )

The Second Coming is not to Megiddo.

Jesus is not riding a white horse.

At the Second Coming, the 6th Seal, Jesus' feet touch down on the mount of Olives.

In Revelation 14:1, Jesus is standing back on mount Zion. He and the 144k are waiting until Satan's 42 months of AoD are finished before He returns on a white horse to Megiddo.

 

[Truth7t7]

The Second Coming is not to Megiddo.

Jesus is not riding a white horse.

At the Second Coming, the 6th Seal, Jesus' feet touch down on the mount of Olives.

In Revelation 14:1, Jesus is standing back on mount Zion. He and the 144k are waiting until Satan's 42 months of AoD are finished before He returns on a white horse to Megiddo.

Of course the 2nd coming will take place at Armageddon, it's (The End) It Is Done!

There is no mortal earthly time beyond the 7th vial and the words "It Is Done"

Revelation 16:16-17KJV
16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.

 

[ewq1938]

Of course the 2nd coming will take place at Armageddon, it's (The End) It Is Done!

Only the vials are done at that time.

There is no mortal earthly time beyond the 7th vial and the words "It Is Done"

Except all the unsaved mortals that were resurrected for final judgment. Also, the eternity has Earthly time forever and ever, time never ending.

 

[Timtofly]

Of course the 2nd coming will take place at Armageddon, it's (The End) It Is Done!

There is no mortal earthly time beyond the 7th vial and the words "It Is Done"

Revelation 16:16-17KJV
16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.

It is to the Mount of Olives. Zechariah 14.

Not the mount Megiddo. Or the valley of said mountain. Two different mountains, two different time tables. Armageddon only happens if Satan is allowed 42 months to set up his Babylonian empire.

We will not know until the 7th Trumpet sounds, if these last 42 months of AoD will even happen. They may not happen at all. The closer we get to the cutoff of time, the less likely they will happen.

Remember Matthew 24:22 ?

"And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened."

Those days keep getting shorter, so more of Adam's dead corruptible flesh are experiencing the second birth. Soon all those who would have chosen beheading over the mark will have made their choice now, instead of later. But if God says there is still one left to decide, then Satan will get 42 months to allow for that decision. Remember Abraham's deal with God over Sodom? The prayers of the redeemed currently on earth are doing just that.

But for the elects sake those days are shortened. For Abraham's sake Sodom would have been spared. The point was that God could not find 10 righteous, and that is where Abraham stopped in his request.

 

[RLT63]

The NT gospel authors used a ratio of about 60% of the Septuagint Greek, and about 40% of the Hebrew OT, with a few slightly different Greek, and even at least one instant in Matthew where he created his own translation of a text that has no parallel in any written version of the OT. The NT authors were given by God, to be able to apply the technique tat updated the Midrash that had already been applied to the Septuagint.

And so apart from Midrash updates, or older standard texts, God still split prophecies from a psalm about David, in which David himself wrote said psalm, which had split material about David, and Christ's first coming both, and God was responsible for other split OT Prophecies split over being first and second coming passages about Christ.

And especially based on the Septuagint, and the Dead Sea Scrolls, etc.., 2nd Temple Judaism had many split beliefs, including some sound, to various degrees, and not, what the coming of the Messiah will mean. ut some of those Jews were wrong,and likewise came to believe they had been replaced. They were all over the place in interpretation, and part of it was likewise due to prophecy, including in Isaiah, of the partial hardening of Israel, for those who refused to accept Jesus as the Messiah.

And likewise ( with me purposefully using a one year overlap for convenience sake, ) God created Metanarratives within the Bible, including one in which the seven days of creation had a symbolic metanarrative narrative. So God created such symbolic metanarratives such as from the creation as so understood to be in 4004 B.C. to 2004 B.C. to symbolically represent the first two days. And from 2004 to 4 B.C, to symbolically represent the next two days, and from 4 B.C. to 1996 A.D. to represent the next two days, so that six days had passed symbolically. And then God gives us a dual use symbolic stretch, in which the final 7th day symbolically represented two days, or two thousand years, representing the Day of the Lord, in the Already and Not yet Paradigm, stretching forwards from 70 A.D. to 2070 A.D. for the symbolic potential Day of the Lord extending in partial to full fulfilment from 70 A.D. to 2070 A.D.

And likewise God even used that same 1,000 years of the 7th day, to symbolically look backwards to a long period of time mankind believes to be true. And so that day symbolically goes back to 4.6 Billion years ago. Mankind has 46 chromosomes, thus symbolically going back to 4.6 billion years ago. The word for Adam meaning man equals 45 in Hebrew, but 46 in Greek, meaning going back symbolically 4.6 billion years ago. And the 120 commandments have the first 4 about God, and the final six about mankind, thus symbolically also referring back 4.6 billion years ago, etc.., etc., etc.,

So for 2,000 years we have been in the last day. And we as the Church, in the Church Age, or the Time of the Gentiles are the 3rd Temple of God, until the Great Apostacy causes the Church to be rejected next in the fulfillment of final end times prophecy, at which time Israel will rebuild the physical 4th Temple and finish fulfilling God's end times prophecy, including the final 144,000 end times saints.

Preterists of every stripe either have to take all unfulfilled biblical prophecy which was left unfulfilled, no matter how much future, or how much of a worldwide event it was to be, to have to have been fulfilled in Jerusalem only, all by 70 AD, or newer versions of Preterism to claim, well some of the universal and worldwide fulfillment occured by the complete fall of the Roman empire?

Well that's all nute. The linguistic or textual context, all refutes the insanity of every form of Preterism, in my book, or in the book of anyone who is spiritually sane in my opinion. There is no point in parsing Biblical Greek with a Preterist, because they will concede nothing, but their interpretation of all biblical prophetic passages is insane to me.

Daniel 7:12 alone, after the initial passage of the beast kingdoms leading to the 1st coming / advent of Christ, where Dn 7: continues to cornicle to the very end at judgement day, and the beast was defeated, and burned, but in Dan 7:12 as for the rest of the beasts their dominion was taken away, but an extension of life was granted them for a time and seasons ( look it up in the hebrew, ) and from Dan 13: and on the 2nd coming of Christ and judgement is discussed in more detail, and then it goes into more on the 4rth beast again, much like Revelation which has repeating sections, modeled after how Daniel 7: jumps in time too.

But however one chooses to interpret Daniel, and Revelation, Preterists cram all of this, and all other OT prophetic passages on the Day of the Lord, as all having occurred in 70 AD in Jerusalem, or some shortly after at the fall of the Roman Empire? That's all just nuts.

And their NT are all crazy as well. Of course we, the Church, is the 3rd Temple, but the Jews will be grafted back in, and build the4th Temple, and complete the fulfilment of all remaining end times prophecy. And the Day of the Lord, and in that Day, is a split 2,000 split partial and full fulfilment in a futurist interpretation. Preterism is apparently the end times great apostacy, coming eventually for the entire apostate end times great falling away apostacy itself.

Don. K Preston is a massive heretic, ad while a clever enemy of the truth, as mny such clever enemies exist, he clearly is one. I have listened to everything he says / teaches, and he converts no one who are sound at all.


Thanks again

and God Bless,

Mike

Enjoyed your post- I’m not sure about the numbers and the age of the earth but its very interesting and I appreciate your explanation of the Hebrew and Greek- I read about Preterism and they make a good case until they get to Revelation- It doesn’t fit Revelation at all

 

[Gandalf-]

Enjoyed your post- I’m not sure about the numbers and the age of the earth but its very interesting and I appreciate your explanation of the Hebrew and Greek- I read about Preterism and they make a good case until they get to Revelation- It doesn’t fit Revelation at all

I own more than a few of the modern monograph series books on the gospels alone, and they are very well versed / researched on many new testament facts including statistics of OT version quotations, etc..,

These monographs are not cheap, but if you are lucky you may find some in the $48 dollar range, up to the $100+, $200+, and even $300+ dollar range. They are often written by very informed authors and experts in their respective gospel fields, etc..., working from their own universities, etc.., and often in a limited printing from their own university press, etc.., and to thus break even, because of their very limited printing quantities, have to be, and quite often are very expensive.'

That's funny you also mentioned the age of the Earth as well. I can clearly see that God uses multiple levels of justifiable deniability, for believers, and non believers both. God has made, and requires we all wrestle with God, as Jacob did as well, symbolically for our sake, because part of salvation is to demonstrate the strength or weakness of our faith, and thus commitment of faith, to in poart answer the philosophical implications of the devils initial rebellion, where he can create all the lies he wants, but not only lacking such authority to do so, what if we all likewise break away, and demand we all should be equal as gods ourselves. What if everyone demands such equality of authority, which of course we are not entitled to, but say we did, and God granted a universe where we are all equal in power, can you imagine the chaos and endless wars over our own petty desires, and self aggrandizing co-rule? God is answering questions we can not even conceive exist, to answer, thru our own wrestling match to prove the depth of love, when we struggle and wrestle, to prove which ones of us, and to what degree, realize God is Love. God is both Holy, and is Love, and is providing self proving answers of self overindulgent self worth and overindulgent of self love, where sin makes us all over dependent upon our own self aggrandizements, etc..,

 

[Gandalf-]

Enjoyed your post- I’m not sure about the numbers and the age of the earth but its very interesting and I appreciate your explanation of the Hebrew and Greek- I read about Preterism and they make a good case until they get to Revelation- It doesn’t fit Revelation at all

But to likewise answer you on the age of the earth, God again, as the bible clearly so states that Jesus bsically can not openly state the truth, the understanding of which is given to those who are willing to believe, and thus basically based on the strength of one's faith. Just as Habakkuk 2:4 in the 600's BC even states, in the 2nd half of the verse ".....But the righteous shall live by his faith," because righteousness is based on our faith.

Now God has always been the author of the "Periscope," or unit of study, as to which how to apply the defining context of a biblical text, even though in our own cleverness our scholars think we / they have invented the periscope themselves. And as seen over time, where non believing arguments grow stronger, God still keeps involved in strengthening our tools of study towards stronger beliefs as well. God has told us of the powerful delusions He will give the lost over too, for not believing the truth, and instead for believing the lie istead, etc.., So they are given over to partial hardenings, so as to still be able to repent and believe, such as in their ancient lien theorists nonsense. I truly can make very short work of their ancient alien nonsense, and evolution nonsense as well.

But over time God has granted us more powerful witness thru study tools, such as the eventual addition of the division and defining oif, and numbering of bible verse and chapter divisions, to concordances to lexicons, and commentaries, etc.., to better understand the actual periscopes, or units of study God created, including over time the possibility of better biblical language word study, to the better understanding of God's Metanarratives, etc.., as well.

God had created the Metanarrative use in the bible, to witness to the eventual and gradual witness to the hidden, and future ( within the scriptures, ) witness to the Royal and Kingly Messiah in Christ Jesus, in which God came in the form of the Son, as per 1 Corinthians 1: as a stumbling block as well for those who refuse to believe.

And likewise I see God's Metanarratives such as on defending the Bible and creation both. And as such God gave us a six day creation, around 4004 BC, or thereabouts, a 4.6 billion year old creation for appearance sake as well. Then one merely has to ask and look for God's planned appearance of both only a 6,000 year old creation, and the witness to a possible 4.6 billion year old creation witness as well?

God has promised strong delusions in relation to what an unbelieving world will believe, as well as that being a partial hardening, if they repent and believe, as well as a strengthening of belief, for those who believe. So how has God provided for these multiple Metanarrative witnesses and beliefs? Because they truly are there indeed!

 

[Gandalf-]

Enjoyed your post- I’m not sure about the numbers and the age of the earth but its very interesting and I appreciate your explanation of the Hebrew and Greek- I read about Preterism and they make a good case until they get to Revelation- It doesn’t fit Revelation at all

Now as to answer you on the age of the earth, this study of mine, is symbolically available by God, thru faith, and for faith, if within our own wrestling match with God, we need to approach such questions, to test the strength of our faith indeed. I never doubted God's word on such things, and merely strived to study to prove such things for others.

Back in 1985 when I became a Christian, I began to study all such things very hard indeed. And I remember one book I purchased from a Jesus Book And Gift, very early on, was the book "The Rebirth Of Music," on how the devil was originally the Anointed Cherub Who Covers," in Ezekiel 26: - 28:, and who was apparently the music director in heaven before his fall. I had played guitar myself for 10 years before becoming a Christian myself, classic Rock to Heavy Metal, from Led Zeppelin to Black Sabbath, and suddenly when I became a Christian, so much suddenly clicked for me. And likewise I was able to see sets of witness, including symbolic, or supportive witnesses as well

So within six months I picked up an Interlinear Hebrew Greek English Bible, and began in earnest to mainly study the OT in Hebrew, and did some work in NT Greek as well. And pattern recognition was my primary focus of study, to see what the narratives the rock and roll and occult worlds were creating / twisting, as well as looking for the narratives God was creating as well. And I saw God was creating ( managing both, ) to control all knowledge basically in the way of managing how one could repent from the overly complicated nonsense required for all the ancient space aliens, etc., required to back their ultimate theories and beliefs, etc..,

So in the beginning God created the very cryptic and compact Genesis narrative first, and the eventual and gradual continuation of said narratives over a great deal of time, in the vast array of OT books to come, with most such continuing narratives ad knowledge coming from the OT prophets first, and so on.

****So on the creation, to give and control multiple narratives, which all lead home to Christ in the end, or such things as the Kabbalah to space aliens, et.., for those who refuse to believe, and of which in due course have to become increasingly complicated, and eventually easily taken apart by applying faith, logic, reasoning, and applying Occam's Razor, etc.., etc.., etc..,

Take Erich Von Daniken and other Ancient Alien Theorists, and ll of their nonsense. At first Erich Von Daniken theorized that what he read in the OT about visions of God, involving Fire, and the presence of God involving fire and pillars of smoke, etc.., all have to be ancient alien spacecraft, etc..,? Well this is purey very silly nonsense, and nothing more! I love and follow Science, and science fiction, having grown up on the original Star Trek, etc.., And Erich Von Daniken is just simply puzzle factory nuts, lol

Even if one lacks faith, and doesn't believe, Erich Von Daniken is simply nuts. He has all of these alleged ancient space aliens, showing up, in their tiny little spacecraft, and generating massive columns of fire and smoke in doing so? Is he nuts? Does he have any idea how bulky, heavy, and the sheer volume of liquid chemical fuels would have to be that they would have to carry to fly around via chemical combustion to fly around with fire and smoke from said chemical combustion? There is no way they would be able to carry the said volume of fuel they would need to go hopping the stars, lol or even fit such amounts of said fuel in their alleged tiny little spacecraft.

They are indeed the lying demonic glamour of the delusions in the heavenlies God has promised would occur. They certainly would not be able to carry saud quantities of said, dangerous by the way, liquid fuels to make such trips. Nor would they be able to maneuver as so claimed by the very best evidence we have. I have seen the best of such footage, and it is demonic glamour and sheer nonsense otherwise. I have seen the best of such recorded visual evidence, where these small alleged alien space craft from a stop suddenly speed off at a 45 degree angle for some distance, accelerating from zero to mach 10 or better, virtually almost instantly, then instantly stopping, and doing it all over again, at a 45 degree angle in a different direction, and then doing so all over again, before speeding off and going stealth, or jumping into and thru some wormhole? It's pure nonsense. And such high G Force insane virtually instant sudden accelerations, sudden stops, and sudden accelerations again, would liquify the internal organs of any biological beings in existence. I figured the G Force generated velocities required to so suddenly go from zero to mach 10 or better, would require velocities at least 20 times faster than the muzzle velocities of our fasted sniper rifles at 5,000 feet per second / per second, and kill any biological being that had to endure that. They would require Inertial Dampening Technology well beyond anything we could even imagine. And some of the brightest theoretical physicists we have, have looked at such footage, and more, and said the same things, that that would liquify their internal organs as well

Then there are the accounts of space aliens walking right thru the walls of an alleged abductees house, and then taking them back thru the same said walls to their very space craft? To walk thru walls as Christ could, would mean they would be having to walk thru higher dimensions of Hyper Space, where they could fold the very fabric of our lower dimensional non hyper-space reality. Again nonsense. They would have to have very powerful cold nuclear fusion reactors to generate not only their ion pulse propulsion,not to mention the energy they would need to generate their anti gravity waves, and the energy to create collapsible, navigable, and sustainable wormholes, generate unheard of inertial dampening energy waves? and traverse hyperspace higher dimension, not to mention have whatever other technologies we have not, or can not even conceive of.

Space Aliens visiting us is pure nonsense based on our understanding of science, based on the said evidence collected. The evidence we have actually defies the laws of physics we have. And we would have to rewrite our laws f physics, for the evidence we think we have, to be true.

 

[Gandalf-]

Enjoyed your post- I’m not sure about the numbers and the age of the earth but its very interesting and I appreciate your explanation of the Hebrew and Greek- I read about Preterism and they make a good case until they get to Revelation- It doesn’t fit Revelation at all

Now that we see that we deal with so much nonsense, including the space alien nonsense, to the world of gnosticism and kabbalah, as an internal but highly deadly incorporeal reality of wrath, as per Isaiah 29:, 9:20, 49:26, etc.., etc.., etc.., which is also witnessed very heavily by rock and roll and heavy metal, and even Hollywood, and Novels, etc.., ----We can see that God witnesses in innocence, for those who refuse to rebel and waken, as is so called, into gnostic and or kabbalistic realms of wrath and punishment, but which also allow from remnants of believers to be rescued thru, for their repentance and faith, as per Isaiah revealing such remnants being rescued for having faith, we see that God both reveals as per his covenant by day, and covenant by night, as per Jeremiah, but also of Christ warning in the gospels to be of the day, and not of the night, for night comes, when no man will be able to work ( for night will capture / neutralize ones ability to produce true works, when gnosticism and the kabbalah, etc.., take over the world.

And so in Symbolic and Type witness, God gives witness hinting at, that God is well aware of the fact that He has created a reality, in which the earth / moon system appears to be 4.6 billion years old. But this witness, witnesses symbolically in such a manner which likewise also applies some of their new age math as well as biblical math reasoning, to show God is witnessing on how He is well aware of both systems of witnessing on the creation.

****In Isaiah 14: in talking about the devil, and his rebellion in heaven, and his "5 - I Will Statements" of his very rebellion itself, how he so states how he will ascend to heaven, and how he will raise his throne above the stars of God, and how he will sit on the mount of assembly, etc.., and how he will make himself like the Most High,

The Hebrew word, Eretz, which means world, and earth, is used for the heavens or underworld in this passage, thus extending the meanings of the word to mean, earth, world, underworld, heavens, cosmos, etc..

And so in the very first verse of the Genesis 1: creation account, it can be interpreted and read in a way we refuse to consider or even conceiver, ----Where it can read. in the beginning God created the Heavens and the Cosmos, - Ad again thus can drill down in order of meaning from Cosmos, Underworld, Solar System, World, Earth., Biblical Hebrew is an extremely Pregnant Language, in which single Hebrew words can have up to ver 100+ to over 150+ meanings. And not only can it's words have so many meanings, it's prefixes as well are so much more than simple articles with meanings such as and, the, in, by, etc.., and it's prefixes can even be phrases, and prepositional phrases, etc..,

And so Genesis 1: can be indeed drilling down in order of magnitude and saying - In the beginning god created the Heavens and the Cosmos, and the Solar System became formless and void, etc.., etc.., etc.., until it starts talking about the earth, in discussing the earth / moon / solar system, in terms of the whole creation account. And on the 4rth day it is well know the Hebrew word used there for the creation of the earth and moon, actually has a range of meaning including appointed, so it says God appointed the greater and lesser lights of the sun and moon, so that God did not create the sun and moon on the 4rth day, but symbolically appointed them together, when God created the earth moon system, by allowing the moon to collide with the earth, and create the earth / moon, and thus the earth / moon / solar system. And to support this, I had in the past looked at the OT celestial references to the constellations, and parts of the constellations, and where Orion was mentioned it was mentioned with the "Hammered Bracelet," or the Asteroid Belt.

And so with the cosmological creation / and appointments given, God describes from the creation of the heavens, to the Cosmos, to the Solar System, and the Creation / Appointments within the solar system, of the Earth / Moon / Solar System.


And now to the hints of 4 & 6, and 4.6, etc.., we have 1) Adam in the OT values at 45, but 46 in the NT Greek = 4.6, ..... 2) The Human race / mankind has 46 Chromosomes = 4.6, ....3) of the 10 commandments, the 1st 4 are about God and the things of God, and the following 6 are about mankind and our relationship with God in how we treat others, etc.., = 4.6, ....4) Genesis consists of 50 chapters, but with a symbolic structure where the 1st 11 chapters are clearly understood to be a symbolic unit, ......With genesis containing 4 such symbolic units of 11 chapters, or 4 said units of 11, giving us the 1st 44 chapters, followed by the final 6 stand alone chapters, or again 4.6

So all of these symbolic 4.6 witness units symbolically witness to the apparent 4.6 billion year old solar system, as it so appears to mankind.