Waiting on him
Well-Known Member
Lol, this will continue for millennia to come!Just asking about people who continue to say Jesus Christ is coming but die never seeing it.
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Lol, this will continue for millennia to come!Just asking about people who continue to say Jesus Christ is coming but die never seeing it.
You also state in your post that you began taking Paul seriously.I've been bothered by the Olivet Discourse for many years, likely because of the influence Dispensationalist Futurism had over my thinking about it. Also, I was raised up in the Church, and was never given any real background for it, so I developed all kinds of false thinking about it.
But over the years I developed a system of interpretation that ignores all the popular views out there, but takes seriously all of the prophetic schools, being willing to separate each school into distinct and separate ideas. I found some truths in Preterism, though I'm not a Preterist. I found some truths in Futurism, and I am a Futurist. But I discarded some of the Dispensationalist elements that made *everything* about the future. And I recognized that some prophecies were historically fulfilled.
And then I began to learn what themes run through the entire Bible consistently, so that I understood biblical language properly. The Abrahamic Covenant and its specific promises became huge to me. Instead of spiritualizing "Israel" into the NT International Church, I found I could only consistently interpret OT prophecies by keeping Israel as literal Israel. So that aspect of Dispensationalism I could accept.
Finally, ignoring all of the popular views out there I took seriously exactly what Paul said, in light of the biblical language and in light of the biblical themes. It was not difficult, then, to understand the Olivet Discourse.
The O.D. was just one more prophetic reference to Israel's fall from grace and ultimate exile. Jesus said that in rejecting him the nation would be cast out of their land until they came back to God in repentance. That is exactly what the Prophets had said to Israel about the approaching Babylonian Captivity.
Luke 21, to answer your question, describes the "Great Tribulation" as a *Jewish Punishment,* and not the Antichristian Tribulation we hear so often. It is a time when Israel is set aside and loses their Kingdom to the Roman Nation, who then takes up the mantel of God's Kingdom. So while the Gospel is spread throughout the Gentile world, Israel languishes in her Diaspora.
This is exactly what Luke said:
Luke 21.20 “When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city. 22 For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written. 23 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! There will be great distress in the land and wrath against this people. 24 They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.
Pretersm is a farce, found no place in scriptureNo. It’s because you have a closed mind.
I Disagree, 60 million unborn being killed annually in the world (Abortion)?Lol, this will continue for millennia to come!
You flunked grammar.Your claim is "False"
The Great Tribulation seen in Luke 21 starts when Daniel's AOD takes place, this is a "Future" event unfulfilled, and it didn't take place in 70AD with Roman Armies destroying Jerusalem as you suggest, your teachings and beliefs are nothing more than standard reformed preterist eschatology
I was raised up in the Church, and was never given any real background for it, so I developed all kinds of false thinking about it.
But over the years I developed a system of interpretation that ignores all the popular views out there, but takes seriously all of the prophetic schools,
But over the years I developed a system of interpretation that ignores all the popular views out there, but takes seriously all of the prophetic schools, being willing to separate each school into distinct and separate ideas. I found some truths in Preterism, though I'm not a Preterist. I found some truths in Futurism, and I am a Futurist. But I discarded some of the Dispensationalist elements that made *everything* about the future. And I recognized that some prophecies were historically fulfilled.
And then I began to learn what themes run through the entire Bible consistently,
No. It’s because you have a closed mind.
Well, I've *always* taken Paul seriously. I've never *not* believed in his apostolic authority. What I meant is that instead of passing over his statements as if he may have meant something I didn't understand, or instead of viewing his statements as "symbolic," I began to cling onto strong concepts that I saw were already present in the OT Scriptures as a regular biblical theme. I began to understand "where Paul was coming from," and latch onto that in the face of so many mere "opinions."You also state in your post that you began taking Paul seriously.
Paul said there was no longer any such thing as a gentile?
In the biblical sense of time for the Jewish nation to obtain fulfillment they have to pass out of the stage of Diaspora and into the stage of national restoration, "never more to be destroyed as a nation." That hasn't happened yet.Ok so how do we know the times of the Gentiles wasn’t fulfilled?
I didn't say I believed I had "false thinking." I said I had been programmed to read certain Scriptures a certain way that never really seemed cogent and didn't give me real satisfaction that I understood them properly.And when exactly did you come to believe any of your false thinking had ceased exactly? LOL, sorry, I couldn't help myself, lol
Yes, you got that right. Most Christians, because they are indeed Christians, usually have at least a piece of the truth.So again, that is your interpretation, that you took all of the prophetic schools seriously, basically to loosley paraphrase and combine the spirit of what I believe you were saying, in your being willing to incorporate portions of their various views together into a cohesive whole. etc..,
Well yes, but the Battle of Armageddon will be preceded by Antichrist's 3.5 year reign of terror. That isn't to be taken lightly. Christians are encouraged to resist and to overcome in faith.The battle of Armageddon, being the final battle of the Antichrist and his followers, against Israel and Christ, will end before it even begins, when the Antichrist and his armies are suddenly met, and defeated by the return of Christ.
Yes, I'm familiar with "types." But they are often used to avoid making a prophecy stick to a particular historical fulfillment, so that it loosely fits anywhere one wishes to put it. I'm now much more literal than that. I do see foreshadowings in which prophetic fulfillments typify a greater climactic fulfillment. But these foreshadowings have their own literal fulfillment in history, whereas eschatological prophecy is only fulfilled at the end of the age.And thus a complete fulfillment in Type ( because what is fulfilled i Type, doesn't actually fulfill a prophecy, but again only does so in Type. )
The battle of Armageddon, being the final battle of the Antichrist and his followers, against Israel and Christ, will end before it even begins, when the Antichrist and his armies are suddenly met, and defeated by the return of Christ.
And it was so named, because the Antichrist will gather the armies of the world together at the Mound Of Megiddo, or Har ( mound ) Megiddo in Hebrew, to attempt from that rallying point to go down to Jerusalem and destroy Israel and God's plans for the last time, only to be destroyed themselves with the 2nd coming of Christ.
And so, during WW I, at one point British General Allenby ( as a Type for the Antichrist symbolically here only, ) gathered at the Mound Of Megiddo, to gather the armies / kings of the world, ( again only
symbolically, as he had in fact gathered mixed representatives of the Allied armies from the world, who fought on the Allies side, ) ......to go down to Jerusalem to route those who were there in defence ( again symbolically of the same attitude of battle which will be attempted against Israel - but in Allenby's case he gathered of the Allied Armies at the Mound Of Megiddo, where he them employed his plan to have Allied planes fly over Jerusalem, to scare it's Muslim defenders at that time, who were scared, and fled, and General Allenby with his armies rode into, and took Jerusalem. )
And thus a complete fulfillment in Type ( because what is fulfilled i Type, doesn't actually fulfill a prophecy, but again only does so in Type. )
Of course the 2nd coming will take place at Armageddon, it's (The End) It Is Done!The Second Coming is not to Megiddo.
Jesus is not riding a white horse.
At the Second Coming, the 6th Seal, Jesus' feet touch down on the mount of Olives.
In Revelation 14:1, Jesus is standing back on mount Zion. He and the 144k are waiting until Satan's 42 months of AoD are finished before He returns on a white horse to Megiddo.
Of course the 2nd coming will take place at Armageddon, it's (The End) It Is Done!
There is no mortal earthly time beyond the 7th vial and the words "It Is Done"
It is to the Mount of Olives. Zechariah 14.Of course the 2nd coming will take place at Armageddon, it's (The End) It Is Done!
There is no mortal earthly time beyond the 7th vial and the words "It Is Done"
Revelation 16:16-17KJV
16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
Enjoyed your post- I’m not sure about the numbers and the age of the earth but its very interesting and I appreciate your explanation of the Hebrew and Greek- I read about Preterism and they make a good case until they get to Revelation- It doesn’t fit Revelation at allThe NT gospel authors used a ratio of about 60% of the Septuagint Greek, and about 40% of the Hebrew OT, with a few slightly different Greek, and even at least one instant in Matthew where he created his own translation of a text that has no parallel in any written version of the OT. The NT authors were given by God, to be able to apply the technique tat updated the Midrash that had already been applied to the Septuagint.
And so apart from Midrash updates, or older standard texts, God still split prophecies from a psalm about David, in which David himself wrote said psalm, which had split material about David, and Christ's first coming both, and God was responsible for other split OT Prophecies split over being first and second coming passages about Christ.
And especially based on the Septuagint, and the Dead Sea Scrolls, etc.., 2nd Temple Judaism had many split beliefs, including some sound, to various degrees, and not, what the coming of the Messiah will mean. ut some of those Jews were wrong,and likewise came to believe they had been replaced. They were all over the place in interpretation, and part of it was likewise due to prophecy, including in Isaiah, of the partial hardening of Israel, for those who refused to accept Jesus as the Messiah.
And likewise ( with me purposefully using a one year overlap for convenience sake, ) God created Metanarratives within the Bible, including one in which the seven days of creation had a symbolic metanarrative narrative. So God created such symbolic metanarratives such as from the creation as so understood to be in 4004 B.C. to 2004 B.C. to symbolically represent the first two days. And from 2004 to 4 B.C, to symbolically represent the next two days, and from 4 B.C. to 1996 A.D. to represent the next two days, so that six days had passed symbolically. And then God gives us a dual use symbolic stretch, in which the final 7th day symbolically represented two days, or two thousand years, representing the Day of the Lord, in the Already and Not yet Paradigm, stretching forwards from 70 A.D. to 2070 A.D. for the symbolic potential Day of the Lord extending in partial to full fulfilment from 70 A.D. to 2070 A.D.
And likewise God even used that same 1,000 years of the 7th day, to symbolically look backwards to a long period of time mankind believes to be true. And so that day symbolically goes back to 4.6 Billion years ago. Mankind has 46 chromosomes, thus symbolically going back to 4.6 billion years ago. The word for Adam meaning man equals 45 in Hebrew, but 46 in Greek, meaning going back symbolically 4.6 billion years ago. And the 120 commandments have the first 4 about God, and the final six about mankind, thus symbolically also referring back 4.6 billion years ago, etc.., etc., etc.,
So for 2,000 years we have been in the last day. And we as the Church, in the Church Age, or the Time of the Gentiles are the 3rd Temple of God, until the Great Apostacy causes the Church to be rejected next in the fulfillment of final end times prophecy, at which time Israel will rebuild the physical 4th Temple and finish fulfilling God's end times prophecy, including the final 144,000 end times saints.
Preterists of every stripe either have to take all unfulfilled biblical prophecy which was left unfulfilled, no matter how much future, or how much of a worldwide event it was to be, to have to have been fulfilled in Jerusalem only, all by 70 AD, or newer versions of Preterism to claim, well some of the universal and worldwide fulfillment occured by the complete fall of the Roman empire?
Well that's all nute. The linguistic or textual context, all refutes the insanity of every form of Preterism, in my book, or in the book of anyone who is spiritually sane in my opinion. There is no point in parsing Biblical Greek with a Preterist, because they will concede nothing, but their interpretation of all biblical prophetic passages is insane to me.
Daniel 7:12 alone, after the initial passage of the beast kingdoms leading to the 1st coming / advent of Christ, where Dn 7: continues to cornicle to the very end at judgement day, and the beast was defeated, and burned, but in Dan 7:12 as for the rest of the beasts their dominion was taken away, but an extension of life was granted them for a time and seasons ( look it up in the hebrew, ) and from Dan 13: and on the 2nd coming of Christ and judgement is discussed in more detail, and then it goes into more on the 4rth beast again, much like Revelation which has repeating sections, modeled after how Daniel 7: jumps in time too.
But however one chooses to interpret Daniel, and Revelation, Preterists cram all of this, and all other OT prophetic passages on the Day of the Lord, as all having occurred in 70 AD in Jerusalem, or some shortly after at the fall of the Roman Empire? That's all just nuts.
And their NT are all crazy as well. Of course we, the Church, is the 3rd Temple, but the Jews will be grafted back in, and build the4th Temple, and complete the fulfilment of all remaining end times prophecy. And the Day of the Lord, and in that Day, is a split 2,000 split partial and full fulfilment in a futurist interpretation. Preterism is apparently the end times great apostacy, coming eventually for the entire apostate end times great falling away apostacy itself.
Don. K Preston is a massive heretic, ad while a clever enemy of the truth, as mny such clever enemies exist, he clearly is one. I have listened to everything he says / teaches, and he converts no one who are sound at all.
Thanks again
and God Bless,
Mike
I own more than a few of the modern monograph series books on the gospels alone, and they are very well versed / researched on many new testament facts including statistics of OT version quotations, etc..,Enjoyed your post- I’m not sure about the numbers and the age of the earth but its very interesting and I appreciate your explanation of the Hebrew and Greek- I read about Preterism and they make a good case until they get to Revelation- It doesn’t fit Revelation at all
But to likewise answer you on the age of the earth, God again, as the bible clearly so states that Jesus bsically can not openly state the truth, the understanding of which is given to those who are willing to believe, and thus basically based on the strength of one's faith. Just as Habakkuk 2:4 in the 600's BC even states, in the 2nd half of the verse ".....But the righteous shall live by his faith," because righteousness is based on our faith.Enjoyed your post- I’m not sure about the numbers and the age of the earth but its very interesting and I appreciate your explanation of the Hebrew and Greek- I read about Preterism and they make a good case until they get to Revelation- It doesn’t fit Revelation at all
Now as to answer you on the age of the earth, this study of mine, is symbolically available by God, thru faith, and for faith, if within our own wrestling match with God, we need to approach such questions, to test the strength of our faith indeed. I never doubted God's word on such things, and merely strived to study to prove such things for others.Enjoyed your post- I’m not sure about the numbers and the age of the earth but its very interesting and I appreciate your explanation of the Hebrew and Greek- I read about Preterism and they make a good case until they get to Revelation- It doesn’t fit Revelation at all
Now that we see that we deal with so much nonsense, including the space alien nonsense, to the world of gnosticism and kabbalah, as an internal but highly deadly incorporeal reality of wrath, as per Isaiah 29:, 9:20, 49:26, etc.., etc.., etc.., which is also witnessed very heavily by rock and roll and heavy metal, and even Hollywood, and Novels, etc.., ----We can see that God witnesses in innocence, for those who refuse to rebel and waken, as is so called, into gnostic and or kabbalistic realms of wrath and punishment, but which also allow from remnants of believers to be rescued thru, for their repentance and faith, as per Isaiah revealing such remnants being rescued for having faith, we see that God both reveals as per his covenant by day, and covenant by night, as per Jeremiah, but also of Christ warning in the gospels to be of the day, and not of the night, for night comes, when no man will be able to work ( for night will capture / neutralize ones ability to produce true works, when gnosticism and the kabbalah, etc.., take over the world.Enjoyed your post- I’m not sure about the numbers and the age of the earth but its very interesting and I appreciate your explanation of the Hebrew and Greek- I read about Preterism and they make a good case until they get to Revelation- It doesn’t fit Revelation at all