Preterism misrepresents Scripture

[Spiritual Israelite]

Matthew 28:18 (KJV) And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

What was the point you were intending to make here by quoting this verse in response to what I had said? What does this verse have to do with Jesus delivering the kingdom to the Father? Doesn't Matthew 13:40-43 show that this happens at the end of the age? It is not until then that God's people are said to shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Right now we are in the kingdom of Christ.

Colossians 1:12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: 13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Since the world known in the first century had heard the Gospel of the Kingdom, it's clear (to me at least) vs 14 is applicable to the first century disciples. But it is also necessary that the Gospel is preached "for a witness unto all nations." That could not have happened before nations existed. The mandate of Christ before leaving was "preach the Gospel to every creature" in all the world, that is Christ suffered and died and rose to life again, so repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name among ALL nations. IMO including those not yet in existence. So vs 14 IMO is applicable to all disciples from the first nation, Jerusalem, to the last nation, whatever, wherever that may be.

So, do you believe that "the end" Jesus referred to in verse 14 will come when He returns at the end of the age?

Mark 16:15 (KJV) And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

Luke 24:46-47 (KJV) And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

Although I would agree AOD was understood by the first disciples, it would also be understood to be in the Churches, for whosoever should read to understand. IOW abomination that makes desolate was not limited to Jerusalem. When the saints understand abomination that makes desolate is among the body of Christ, we too should flee to Zion.

So, do you not think that Matthew 24:15-22 related to the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple buildings in 70 AD? One of the questions Jesus was asked was regarding the timing of the destruction of the temple buildings that He had just talked about, so if He didn't answer that question in Matthew 24:15-22, then where do you think He answered that question?

 

[MatthewG]

Do you believe that Jesus will return bodily in the future?

Yes, I believe all the people who turned from non-faith to faith; and were part of the Chosen Bride back in that day, within the 40 years before Jesus was proclaimed to return, and promised also to the 7 Churches of Asia, which Jesus depicts some are okay, and some are not so okay, and they needed to change otherwise they were gonna suffer the fate of the unfaithful bride Israel which would be catastrophically destroyed in 70Ad. I believe that sometime during, and after the plagues had come about is where the church that hell would never prevail again was taken, who was known as the Bride of Christ.

Now, though I believe by faith - with no evidence at all - Jesus did return bodily, and those who were looking and turned in faith look and saw him and was part of the bride which was taken in the early century, is a subjectively believed because of the basis on the promises of the narrative, the time, the people, and contextual shreds of evidence; tend to lead me to seeing the bible as now today a guide book, in spiritual principles of newness of life being born again in Christ, when one comes to faith and continues to grow.

And just because I believe and have faith Jesus did not fail those who were promised to see him come again, doesn't make me not a believer in what the Bible states; which all needs to be considered by and through study, and of course faith, that God even exists and should be supplemented by the support of by prayer and asking God to help you as a person goes along learning and reading the narrative, and take in the contextual considerations provided through time.

(For these reasons do I believe people when they die, they are resurrected quickly, and taken upward on to the Heavenly Gates of the New Heavenly Kingdom, and some make the choice to not go in the gate and go outside the kingdom, and some do go in through the Gate, because of faith and a desire to have God in their life, and allowing Christ to be there life.)​

 

[rwb]

I disagree. A spirit and a body are two separate parts of human beings. A believer's spirit does not turn into a spiritual body when he or she dies. It's still a spirit. The person's spirit and soul go to heaven, but their body remains dead and will be resurrected when Jesus returns. Our natural bodies die and when Jesus returns He will raise them as spiritual bodies. You do believe that there will be a resurrection of the dead in Christ when He returns, right? Well, what kind of body will we have at that point, if not a spiritual body?

What is a physical, spiritual body? Mankind is made of both body, and spirit which together we are living souls. Our spirit does not cease to be spirit when our physical body dies. Paul writes there is BOTH a natural body and a spiritual body, but they are NOT the same body. Natural, physical body is literal, while spiritual non-carnal, regenerate (((body))) is figurative. Because a spirit is not of flesh, because the spirit of regenerate man has been born again of the Spirit. That which is flesh is flesh, and that which is of the Spirit is spirit. After physical death our spirit returns to God in heaven who gave it, a living (spirit) soul. We will not be a complete living soul again until the spirit is reunited with our immortal & incorruptible physical bodies resurrected from the grave.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 (KJV) Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

G4983 Body - the body (as a sound whole), used in a very wide application, literally or figuratively:—bodily, body, slave

Example: 1 Corinthians 6:19 (KJV) What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

Luke 24:39 (KJV) Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

John 3:6 (KJV) That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

1 Corinthians 15:45 (KJV) And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

We will not be resurrected a spiritual physical body. That which is physical shall always be physical, and that which is spiritual shall always be spiritual, and together living souls. We will be physically resurrected and reunited with our spirit that returns with Christ, and once again be complete living souls, with immortal & incorruptible physical bodies, and eternal spirit. Then fit for life with Christ forever on the new earth. Faithful saints shall only be a spiritual body, as are the angels of God in heaven. The earth and new earth are created for physical life, or whole life with body + spirit = living souls.

 

[rwb]

Yes, of course. But, what I think you're missing is that he indicated that the natural body is also mortal, corruptible, dishonorable and weak, while the spiritual body is also immortal, incorruptible, glorious and powerful. According to Paul we will not be changed and have our immortal bodies until the last trumpet sounds and it hasn't sounded yet. It will sound when Jesus comes. That event is referenced by Paul in 1 Cor 15:22-23.

Yes, our natural, physical bodies are mortal and corruptible, dishonorable and weak. Which is why our physical bodies must be resurrected immortal & incorruptible. But the spirit in man, without the Spirit of Christ will die with the physical bodies that shall be cast into the lake of fire, which is the second death. But the spirit in man that has been born again by Christ's Spirit in us is eternal and shall never die. Being kept by the power of the Spirit in them until being reunited with our bodies of immortal and incorruptible flesh.

Ephesians 1:13-14 (KJV) In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Paul says the body sown in death is natural, of the earth, earthy and bears the image of the first Adam. This is the physical body that dies and returns to the earth and is sown in corruption, dishonor, weakness and natural or of the earth, as Adam was. When the natural body dies our spirit is raised a spiritual body. The spiritual body raised is as the heavenly, like Christ NOT sown in the earth in corruption, dishonor, and weakness, because the spiritual is not physical, and through Christ's Spirit our spirit NEVER dies, because the life we receive through Christ's Spirit in us is ETERNAL. It is only the physical part of those of faith that is sown in corruption, and shall be resurrected in incorruption, sown in dishonor, raised in glory, sown in weakness, raised in power, sown natural man. When the last trump sounds natural/physical man with his/her reunited eternal spirit shall again be a complete living soul. But before the last trump sounds our spirit departs our physical, dead body and ascends (is raised) to heaven a spiritual body to wait for the Kingdom of God in heaven to be complete when the last trump sounds.

1 Corinthians 15:42-44 (KJV) So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

 

[rwb]

You lost me here. First you said "sown a natural body, RAISED a spiritual body", but then you say "not resurrected"? What does "raised" mean if not resurrected then?

A bare grain is how Paul describes being raised a spiritual body. Just as a grain or seed must grow to maturity before it becomes wheat, so too after our natural physical body dies, we become spiritual, and will not be a complete living soul again until our spirit and our body is returned to one body + spirit = living soul. Our spirit when indwelt with the Spirit from Christ NEVER dies, so our spirit doesn't have to be resurrected because it never dies. The natural body dies and must be resurrected to life, that's why our spirit is raised a spiritual body because the Spirit of Christ in us, assures our spirit shall continue to be alive in heaven even though our body is dead and buried.

 

[rwb]

So, do you believe that "the end" Jesus referred to in verse 14 will come when He returns at the end of the age?

I don't believe Christ was referring to the end of the world, but the end of life for those who endure until they die. This is not limited to first century disciples, but applicable to disciples in every age.

Matthew 24:13-14 (KJV) But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

So, do you not think that Matthew 24:15-22 related to the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple buildings in 70 AD? One of the questions Jesus was asked was regarding the timing of the destruction of the temple buildings that He had just talked about, so if He didn't answer that question in Matthew 24:15-22, then where do you think He answered that question?

Yes, for them and to be an example for disciples in every age. I don't believe Christ ever gave an answer for when the destruction He said would come. He only said it would and it did in AD 70.

 

[WPM]

A bare grain is how Paul describes being raised a spiritual body. Just as a grain or seed must grow to maturity before it becomes wheat, so too after our natural physical body dies, we become spiritual, and will not be a complete living soul again until our spirit and our body is returned to one body + spirit = living soul. Our spirit when indwelt with the Spirit from Christ NEVER dies, so our spirit doesn't have to be resurrected because it never dies. The natural body dies and must be resurrected to life, that's why our spirit is raised a spiritual body because the Spirit of Christ in us, assures our spirit shall continue to be alive in heaven even though our body is dead and buried.

You are totally contradicting everything you previously said. There is no resurrection that occurs when we die. Our never-dying spirit returns to God who gave it for the redeemed to reign in Christ until physical resurrection on the last day at the second coming.

 

[WPM]

I don't know what you mean by "Mosaic Age".

Here's what I said in post 124:

God spiritually destroyed OT Israel at Calvary.
God physically destroyed OT Israel at the destruction of Jerusalem.

Here's what you said in post 129:

I am not disputing that.

Please define physical Israel at the time of AD70

 

[covenantee]

Yes. I explained before how the things spoken about in Bible prophecy aren't always in chronological order. That is clearly the case in other prophecies like what we see in the book of Daniel and the book of Revelation, for example. Not sure if you saw that post or not.

I believe Jesus started talking about things related to His coming and the end of the age, pivoted to talking about things related to the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple buildings, then went back to talking about things related to His coming and the end of the age for the rest of the Olivet Discourse.

There is a single but significant word appearing as the third word in verse 15. Undoubtedly you've heard the timeless little Bible study adage "If you see a 'therefore', you gotta find out what it is there for."

Here are some of Strong's definitions of "therefore":

1. οὖν a conjunction indicating that something follows from another necessarily;

2. Hence, it is used in drawing a conclusion and in connecting sentences together logically, then, therefore, accordingly, consequently, these things being so

3. with other conjunction οὖν, so then, Latinhincigitur, in Paul; see ἄρα, 5. εἰ οὖν, if then (where what has just been said and proved is carried over to prove something else)

4. HELPS Word-studies
3767 oún (a conjunction) – therefore, now then, accordingly so. 3767 (oún) occurs 526 times in the NT and is typically translated "therefore" which means, "By extension, here's how the dots connect."

If verse 14 is the Second Coming, but verse 15 is the DoJ, then verse 14 fails to satisfy any of these definitions of "therefore":

1. οὖν a conjunction indicating that something follows from another necessarily;
If verse 14 is the Second Coming, then verse 15 as the DoJ cannot and does not follow from verse 14.

2. Hence, it is used in drawing a conclusion and in connecting sentences together logically, then, therefore, accordingly, consequently, these things being so
If verse 14 is the Second Coming, then verse 15 as the DoJ is not a conclusion that can be drawn from verse 14.

3. with other conjunction οὖν, so then, Latinhincigitur, in Paul; see ἄρα, 5. εἰ οὖν, if then (where what has just been said and proved is carried over to prove something else)
If verse 14 is the Second Coming, then verse 15 as the DoJ is not proven by verse 14.

4. HELPS Word-studies
3767 oún (a conjunction) – therefore, now then, accordingly so. 3767 (oún) occurs 526 times in the NT and is typically translated "therefore" which means, "By extension, here's how the dots connect."
If verse 14 is the Second Coming and verse 15 is the DoJ, then there are no dots to connect because they refer to two different events.
Conversely, if both verse 14 and verse 15 are the DoJ, they are connectable dots.

Thus, the significance of a "therefore".

 

[covenantee]

Please define physical Israel at the time of AD70

The physical structures of Jerusalem, and the physical lives of its inhabitants.

 

[rwb]

You are totally contradicting everything you previously said. There is no resurrection that occurs when we die. Our never-dying spirit returns to God who gave it for the redeemed to reign in Christ until physical resurrection on the last day at the second coming.

Again, don't know what you're talking about! I said "Our spirit when indwelt with the Spirit from Christ NEVER dies, so our spirit doesn't have to be resurrected because it never dies." When our body dies our spirit, through Christ's Spirit in us leaves our mortal body and returns to God alive after death. Since our ETERNAL spirit never dies, there is no need for our spirit to be resurrected when our body dies, that's why it is a raised a spiritual body according to the Apostle Paul. To be 'raised' is as being aroused from sleeping. To be 'resurrected' is to recover life again after death.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 (KJV) Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Where and in what manner do the redeemed continue to reign with Christ until our physical resurrection when the last trump sounds? As spiritually alive (living souls) do we not got to heaven to be with Christ, where He is? Doesn't John tell us in the Revelation that he saw those who had physically died in heaven after death as living souls?

 

[WPM]

The physical structures of Jerusalem, and the physical lives of its inhabitants.

Well they both still exist. I have been there 3 different times in my life.

 

[WPM]

Well they both still exist. I have been there 3 different times in my life.

So, when did physical Israel stop referring to the physical lives of its inhabitants?

 

[covenantee]

Well they both still exist. I have been there 3 different times in my life.

Did you visit in 71AD?

Daniel 9
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

Do you not believe Daniel?

 

[WPM]

Did you visit in 71AD?

Daniel 9
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

Do you not believe Daniel?

Jerusalem was judged by God and her temple was left without one brick upon the other (as Jesus predicted) but the city was not eliminated as you are suggesting. It was left in ruins.

 

[covenantee]

Jerusalem was judged by God and her temple was left without one brick upon the other (as Jesus predicted) but the city was not eliminated as you are suggesting. It was left in ruins.

Link to the post in which I said that the city was "eliminated".

 

[WPM]

Did you visit in 71AD?

Daniel 9
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

Do you not believe Daniel?

So, when did physical Israel stop referring to the physical lives of its inhabitants?

 

[covenantee]

So, when did physical Israel stop referring to the physical lives of its inhabitants?

For you to first respond to:

Did you visit in 71AD?
Do you not believe Daniel?
Link to the post in which I said that the city was "eliminated".

 

[WPM]

For you to first respond to:

Did you visit in 71AD?
Do you not believe Daniel?
Link to the post in which I said that the city was "eliminated".

Why will you not answer my question? Why do you ask a silly question that you know the answer to? Can you not be respectful?

So, when did physical Israel stop referring to the physical lives of its inhabitants?