Preterism misrepresents Scripture

[covenantee]

I'm a bit surprised that you wouldn't already know how I interpret those verses since I've commented on them so many times in the past. But, anyway, I apply them to the destruction of Jerusalem. Why do you ask?

Matthew 24
14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

So, just to reconfirm, you apply verses 15 and 16 to the destruction of Jerusalem, but apply verse 14 to the Second Coming?

 

[MatthewG]

From my own thoughts, if I say "There is a thousand keys on this key chain, but there is only 80", maybe a thousand years can be seen as the same thing; and to take in context that the Revelation was written to a group of people in Asia minor is very specific, especially with things that would shorty come to pass.

You can quote all kinds of scriptures and try to find signs for the end times today, but the only end time is the end time of your life and your last breathe given.

When looking at scripture the Last days started at Pentecost, and I wonder if this is also the time of the binding of satan for a time; so that the Gospel could reach the 'whole world' that they knew.

Another thought is that, people tend to misread and represent the bible if they have little studied and looked more into their studies.

Like Hell for example, is done away with according to the Bible.
Like Satan being done away with, according to Revelation, from John the beloved, though some believe that Revelation shouldn't even be in the bible at all, as well as some other apostles letters.

That is why it is up to the individual to seek out, what is true, and what would best represent the story of Christ?

Is it we need to get right with him before he comes back? - Faith takes care of that, but are we the ones promised to be come and got?

It would be more understandable to get your relationship with God right before leaving this world, no doubt; but it is only through Christ that truth comes from, and one one has to believe was raised from the dead, if they have been given that information to decide about.

The Resurrection, and the 'second coming' as they call it, happened all with-in the first century, and that is why people die today, its okay to say they are raised again, either in heavenly kingdom, or outside of it, and that is just going with scripture and the overall notion that leads a person by the spirit to carry forth Gods love to others.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

We should be focusing on the greatest problem. The lesser problem is a distractive diversion.

No one is forcing you to take part in this thread. Everyone can decide for themselves what they think is worth discussing or not.

 

[covenantee]

No one is forcing you to take part in this thread. Everyone can decide for themselves what they think is worth discussing or not.

No disagreement there.

 

[rwb]

What does being "spiritually resurrected to heaven" mean? I understand the concept of our spirits and souls going to heaven when we die, but what does being "spiritually resurrected to heaven" mean? A resurrection involves going from being dead to alive. The spirits/souls of physically dead saints don't get resurrected since they never die.

Good point! In truth we are spiritually resurrected while physically alive. Which is, "And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;" (Eph 2:1). Since in life we have been made spiritually alive, it is true our spirit then shall never die. That's why Paul says, " It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body." When faithful saints die, our spirit that never dies, ascends alive to heaven a "spiritual body."

And are you somehow missing that Paul indicates that the dead in Christ would be resurrected "when he comes"? What do you think he meant by that? To me, he's clearly talking about the second coming of Christ. That is when the dead will be raised. They are not resurrected in any way, shape or form immediately after death.

Our dead bodies will be resurrected when Christ comes again. When He returns, He brings with Him the spirits of all who have physically died who are now with Him in heaven. (1Th 4:14) These saints who died before Christ became the firstfruits of the dead, could not spiritually ascend to heaven until Christ defeated the grave they were being held captive in. (Eph 4:8-10)

Adam brought death to man. Christ brought resurrection to man, becoming the first resurrection of the dead. According to John in Rev man MUST have part in the first resurrection for them to overcome the second death. The saints died before Christ became the first resurrection (firstfruits of the dead), if Christ had not been resurrected Paul says, "Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished" (vs 18).

But they have not perished because the dead has been raised up. Paul says that which is sown in not quickened, except it die. These saints that died before Christ became the first resurrection were spiritually quickened even though they had already physically died. They were 'quickened' in the same way we, who, in life were once dead in trespasses and sins must also be quickened. Our spirits made alive through His Spirit in us. The word 'quickened' is always used when referring to receiving spirit life through Christ's Spirit in us.

Paul goes to great lengths to show the body (spiritual) raised up is not the body (natural) that shall be. At this point the dead raised up is but a bare grain that shall become wheat (complete again when reunited with immortal flesh). But until then God gives a body (spiritual) that pleases Him, and to every seed His (Christ's) own body (Spirit life). Paul then says there are celestial as well as terrestrial bodies. The physical body is sown in corruption and shall be raised in incorruption (when the last trump sounds). Sown in dishonor, raised in glory, sown in weakness, raised in power, sown a natural body, raised a spiritual body. Not resurrected, which our natural, physical body that shall be when the last trump sounds. Since there is both a natural (physical/flesh) body and a spiritual (celestial/heavenly) body, the natural body is not resurrected when sown in death, the body that is spiritual (our eternal spirit) is raised then. And we will be as celestial, heavenly beings with the Lord in heaven a spiritual body without mortal/corruptible flesh and blood. Just as in life we have borne the image of natural man of flesh, so too in death we shall be bear the image of the heavenly in the Kingdom of God in heaven with our Lord.

1 Corinthians 15:35-50 (KJV) But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die: And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain: But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body. All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds. There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory. So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

While I, of course, agree with you on how someone has part in the first resurrection, that is simply not what Paul is talking about in 1 Corinthians 15. Again, he's talking about something that will happen "when he comes" (1 Cor 15:22), which is a reference to when Jesus comes again in the future.

In life we have already been made alive (quickened) by His Spirit when we were spiritually dead in trespasses and sins. In this we have partaken of the resurrection life of Christ, the 'first resurrection', and can NEVER again spiritually die. If we will not be made alive again in any sense until the last trump sounds why does Christ say, "He who lives and believes in Me shall NEVER die"? At His coming when the last trump sounds our dead physical body too shall be resurrected to stand in life again. But when we are "in Christ" our spirit, through His Spirit in us will never die, that's what it means to have "eternal life" in Christ. We will have immortal & incorruptible life when our body too is resurrected from the grave when the last trump sounds.

1 Corinthians 15:22 (KJV) For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

 

[rwb]

Had to divide up my response into two posts because of going over the character limit.

He has not yet delivered up the kingdom to God the Father and has not yet put down all rule, authority and power. He does not do that until He comes and destroys His enemies at the end of the age. It is not until then at the end of the age that believers will "shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father" (Matthew 13:43).

I appreciate you taking the time to further explain your view to me, but I'm afraid I still disagree with it.

Matthew 28:18 (KJV) And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

 

[WPM]

From my own thoughts, if I say "There is a thousand keys on this key chain, but there is only 80", maybe a thousand years can be seen as the same thing; and to take in context that the Revelation was written to a group of people in Asia minor is very specific, especially with things that would shorty come to pass.

You can quote all kinds of scriptures and try to find signs for the end times today, but the only end time is the end time of your life and your last breathe given.

When looking at scripture the Last days started at Pentecost, and I wonder if this is also the time of the binding of satan for a time; so that the Gospel could reach the 'whole world' that they knew.

It might be better if you consult with Scripture before always writing your beliefs. The last days started with Christ not at Pentecost. The thousand years began at the first resurrection of Christ and continue until the general resurrection/judgment in Rev 20. These are real events. The have or will literally occur. You are going to have to stop explaining Scripture away, just because it exposes your error.

 

[rwb]

Where does Jesus indicate that the sign of His coming "was His Spirit in them" within the Olivet Discourse? Surely, He would have specifically explained that the giving of "His Spirit" was the sign of His coming if that was the case. Yet, I don't see that He said that anywhere.

Before Christ departed, He breathed on them saying, "Receive ye the Holy Ghost".

John 20:22 (KJV) And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

What they did not have, or even know they would have is POWER from on high when the Spirit is sent to be IN them at Pentecost.

Acts 2:4 (KJV) And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

Acts 2:16-18 (KJV) But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:

 

[rwb]

I understand that He promised to come to them through His Spirit and we know that happened on the day of Pentecost. But, the Olivet Discourse is not about that. The word "come" in verse 18 of that passage is not parousia, by the way.

I agree. I will come to you is translated from "érchomai" which means - to come or go (in a great variety of applications, literally and figuratively):— accompany or appear.

 

[rwb]

1 Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Paul referred here to "the coming of the Lord" and the word "coming" is translated from the Greek word parousia there. You say His parousia refers to the nearness/coming through His Spirit. But, in this passage it refers to the time when He "shall descend from heaven with a shout" at which point "the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air". Do you think this passage is talking about Him coming through His Spirit and not a reference to His bodily second coming?

His coming/nearness/presence 'parousia' is through His Spirit in us and shall be Christ again physically with us when He comes again.

 

[rwb]

We should be focusing on the greatest problem. The lesser problem is a distractive diversion.

I love to study Scripture, it brings me great comfort! So whatever doctrine is being discussed, it seems we eventually discover that no doctrine of Scripture is isolated, all doctrine must be seen as a cohesive whole. Discussing one doctrine will almost always invariably lead to the others. Just my 2 cents.

 

[rwb]

No disagreement there.

With your understanding of Biblical doctrines you bring much insight to every discussion you participate in.

 

[covenantee]

With your understanding of Biblical doctrines you bring much insight to every discussion you participate in.

Thanks, bro. As does yourself, SI, WPM, et al.

 

[rwb]

Matthew 24
14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

So, just to reconfirm, you apply verses 15 and 16 to the destruction of Jerusalem, but apply verse 14 to the Second Coming?

Since the world known in the first century had heard the Gospel of the Kingdom, it's clear (to me at least) vs 14 is applicable to the first century disciples. But it is also necessary that the Gospel is preached "for a witness unto all nations." That could not have happened before nations existed. The mandate of Christ before leaving was "preach the Gospel to every creature" in all the world, that is Christ suffered and died and rose to life again, so repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name among ALL nations. IMO including those not yet in existence. So vs 14 IMO is applicable to all disciples from the first nation, Jerusalem, to the last nation, whatever, wherever that may be.

Mark 16:15 (KJV) And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

Luke 24:46-47 (KJV) And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

Although I would agree AOD was understood by the first disciples, it would also be understood to be in the Churches, for whosoever should read to understand. IOW abomination that makes desolate was not limited to Jerusalem. When the saints understand abomination that makes desolate is among the body of Christ, we too should flee to Zion.

 

[MatthewG]

It might be better if you consult with Scripture before always writing your beliefs. The last days started with Christ not at Pentecost. The thousand years began at the first resurrection of Christ and continue until the general resurrection/judgment in Rev 20. These are real events. The have or will literally occur. You are going to have to stop explaining Scripture away, just because it exposes your error.

If you say so. There is no problem with anything that has been said. People just stick to what they believe in their heart about certain subjects; sometimes it can be so bad; that even proclaiming faith in Jesus Christ and that God raised him back from the dead is not enough for people especially if they do not 'believe' in a certain exact way a person believes one needs to believe; or even think.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Matthew 24
14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

So, just to reconfirm, you apply verses 15 and 16 to the destruction of Jerusalem, but apply verse 14 to the Second Coming?

Yes. I explained before how the things spoken about in Bible prophecy aren't always in chronological order. That is clearly the case in other prophecies like what we see in the book of Daniel and the book of Revelation, for example. Not sure if you saw that post or not.

I believe Jesus started talking about things related to His coming and the end of the age, pivoted to talking about things related to the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple buildings, then went back to talking about things related to His coming and the end of the age for the rest of the Olivet Discourse.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Before Christ departed, He breathed on them saying, "Receive ye the Holy Ghost".

John 20:22 (KJV) And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

What they did not have, or even know they would have is POWER from on high when the Spirit is sent to be IN them at Pentecost.

Acts 2:4 (KJV) And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

Acts 2:16-18 (KJV) But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:

Remember, we're talking about the Olivet Discourse. If the sign of His coming was the receiving of the Holy Spirit then why did Jesus not mention that in the Olivet Discourse?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Another thought is that, people tend to misread and represent the bible if they have little studied and looked more into their studies.

Like Hell for example, is done away with according to the Bible.
Like Satan being done away with, according to Revelation, from John the beloved, though some believe that Revelation shouldn't even be in the bible at all, as well as some other apostles letters.

That is why it is up to the individual to seek out, what is true, and what would best represent the story of Christ?

Is it we need to get right with him before he comes back? - Faith takes care of that, but are we the ones promised to be come and got?

It would be more understandable to get your relationship with God right before leaving this world, no doubt; but it is only through Christ that truth comes from, and one one has to believe was raised from the dead, if they have been given that information to decide about.

The Resurrection, and the 'second coming' as they call it, happened all with-in the first century, and that is why people die today, its okay to say they are raised again, either in heavenly kingdom, or outside of it, and that is just going with scripture and the overall notion that leads a person by the spirit to carry forth Gods love to others.

Do you believe that Jesus will return bodily in the future?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

His coming/nearness/presence 'parousia' is through His Spirit in us and shall be Christ again physically with us when He comes again.

The word "parousia" is never associated with His Spirit being in us and instead always refers to His future bodily coming. So, I don't know why you're trying to claim that the word "parousia" has something to do with His Spirit coming to dwell in us.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Good point! In truth we are spiritually resurrected while physically alive. Which is, "And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;" (Eph 2:1). Since in life we have been made spiritually alive, it is true our spirit then shall never die. That's why Paul says, " It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body." When faithful saints die, our spirit that never dies, ascends alive to heaven a "spiritual body."

I disagree. A spirit and a body are two separate parts of human beings. A believer's spirit does not turn into a spiritual body when he or she dies. It's still a spirit. The person's spirit and soul go to heaven, but their body remains dead and will be resurrected when Jesus returns. Our natural bodies die and when Jesus returns He will raise them as spiritual bodies. You do believe that there will be a resurrection of the dead in Christ when He returns, right? Well, what kind of body will we have at that point, if not a spiritual body?

I don't see anywhere in your post where you responded directly to what I said regarding the contrast being the natural body and the spiritual body. So, I will say it again here.

1 Corinthians 15:35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? 36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die: 37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain: 38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body. 39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds. 40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. 41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory. 42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: 43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: 44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

What Paul was doing here in this passage was contrasting the "natural body" that we currently have with the "spiritual body" that we will have one day. What you seem to be missing is that he was not contrasting a physical body with a spiritual body, but rather was contrasting a natural body with a spiritual body. Jesus had a spiritual body after being resurrected and, yet, He could eat food and be touched and so on. So, a spiritual body does not imply that it's completely non-physical.

So, what Paul was doing there was contrasting our current mortal, corruptible, dishonorable, weak, natural bodies with the immortal, incorruptible, glorious, powerful and spiritual bodies we will have when Jesus comes again. I highlighted the descriptions of our current bodies in red in contrast with the description of the bodies we will have in blue to show how Paul was contrasting the two in verses 42-44.

Can you please give me your thoughts on what I said here?

Our dead bodies will be resurrected when Christ comes again.

Yes, as spiritual bodies. The bodies of the dead in Christ were mortal, corruptible, dishonorable, weak and natural bodies and will be resurrected as immortal, incorruptible, glorious, powerful and spiritual bodies.

When He returns, He brings with Him the spirits of all who have physically died who are now with Him in heaven. (1Th 4:14) These saints who died before Christ became the firstfruits of the dead, could not spiritually ascend to heaven until Christ defeated the grave they were being held captive in. (Eph 4:8-10)

It's interesting that you referred to their spirits here and not their spiritual bodies. You believe they will already have spiritual bodies at that point, right? So, why do you say He will bring with Him from heaven the spirits of those who have physically died?

Adam brought death to man. Christ brought resurrection to man, becoming the first resurrection of the dead. According to John in Rev man MUST have part in the first resurrection for them to overcome the second death.

Yes, of course. The thing I have pointed out to Premils several times in the past is that it is spiritually having part in Christ's resurrection (the first resurrection) that allows us to avoid the second death, not our bodily resurrection. So, that says a lot about what Revelation 20:6 is actually saying and how the timing of it should be understood. From the Premil perspective, one must be bodily resurrected in order to have part in the first resurrection and avoid the second death. But, what was necessary to occur to avoid the second death occurs already well before the bodily resurrection of the dead occurs.

The saints died before Christ became the first resurrection (firstfruits of the dead), if Christ had not been resurrected Paul says, "Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished" (vs 18).

But they have not perished because the dead has been raised up. Paul says that which is sown in not quickened, except it die. These saints that died before Christ became the first resurrection were spiritually quickened even though they had already physically died. They were 'quickened' in the same way we, who, in life were once dead in trespasses and sins must also be quickened. Our spirits made alive through His Spirit in us. The word 'quickened' is always used when referring to receiving spirit life through Christ's Spirit in us.

Yes, I don't deny any of this, but what Paul was talking about in 1 Cor 15:20-23 was people all being resurrected at the same time which will be when Christ comes. I feel that you are missing that. He was talking about the same future event there as he wrote about later in 1 Cor 15:51-52 and that he wrote about in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17. All of the dead in Christ will be raised at the same time when Jesus comes from heaven. That is what 1 Cor 15:20-23 is about.

Paul goes to great lengths to show the body (spiritual) raised up is not the body (natural) that shall be.

Yes, of course. But, what I think you're missing is that he indicated that the natural body is also mortal, corruptible, dishonorable and weak, while the spiritual body is also immortal, incorruptible, glorious and powerful. According to Paul we will not be changed and have our immortal bodies until the last trumpet sounds and it hasn't sounded yet. It will sound when Jesus comes. That event is referenced by Paul in 1 Cor 15:22-23.

At this point the dead raised up is but a bare grain that shall become wheat (complete again when reunited with immortal flesh). But until then God gives a body (spiritual) that pleases Him, and to every seed His (Christ's) own body (Spirit life). Paul then says there are celestial as well as terrestrial bodies. The physical body is sown in corruption and shall be raised in incorruption (when the last trump sounds). Sown in dishonor, raised in glory, sown in weakness, raised in power, sown a natural body, raised a spiritual body. Not resurrected, which our natural, physical body that shall be when the last trump sounds.

You lost me here. First you said "sown a natural body, RAISED a spiritual body", but then you say "not resurrected"? What does "raised" mean if not resurrected then?