Preterism misrepresents Scripture

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Spiritual Israelite

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View attachment 34908 Just share ; it is obvious a time was coming and it was near then. But some say nope. Subjective between you and God @Spiritual Israelite im not gonna argue symanticswith you. No desire.
What exactly was near at that time? Do you read the first few verses but then ignore this:

Revelation 1:19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;

Clearly, John did not just write about things that would happen soon, but rather he wrote about things that had happened in the past, were happening at the time, and that would happen from that time on. He did not only write about things that were soon to happen. That is a false teaching.
 

MatthewG

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You have no proof, yet you somehow learned it from the Bible? The Bible never teaches that Jesus came bodily already in the past.


Jesus did not return bodily at that time.


I make no apologies for calling out your doctrine for what it is (notice I'm talking about your doctrine here, not you personally). It's a false doctrine that is far from the truth. You should ask God for wisdom on this (James 1:5-7).

View attachment 34908 Just share ; it is obvious a time was coming and it was near then. But some say nope. Subjective between you and God @Spiritual Israelite im not gonna argue symanticswith you. No desire.

View attachment 34909all should know.

Dates are debated.


Faith we believe God exists however we dont know; its the same thing with the destruction of Jerusalm if that was promised and the writers were expressing his return, and there is no proof but the destruction.

Best guess, Jesus came and got the church changed in the twinkling of an eye.
 

MatthewG

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You can call it whatever you want man.


What are you waiting for? @Spiritual Israelite there is alot more than chapter 1.

Apostles lied to the people waiting and telling to be ready and watch i guess, if the Wrath of God wasnt coming.
 

MatthewG

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Revelation is such a horrifying yet encouraging book, a beautiful work of art that all should take time to read out loud to themselves. And examine and research about.

Good luck!
And God bless.
 

Spiritual Israelite

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You can call it whatever you want man.
Okay, man. I will.

What are you waiting for? @Spiritual Israelite there is alot more than chapter 1.

Apostles lied to the people waiting and telling to be ready and watch i guess, if the Wrath of God wasnt coming.
There is a difference between the wrath of God that came against unbelieving Jews in 70 AD and the wrath that will come down upon all unbelievers on the earth when Jesus returns in the future. You are not differentiating between the two events for whatever reason. How did you come to believe what you do? Have you ever asked God for wisdom like James said we should do in James 1:5-7?
 

MatthewG

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Okay, man. I will.


There is a difference between the wrath of God that came against unbelieving Jews in 70 AD and the wrath that will come down upon all unbelievers on the earth when Jesus returns in the future. You are not differentiating between the two events for whatever reason. How did you come to believe what you do? Have you ever asked God for wisdom like James said we should do in James 1:5-7?

Why or when do you expect Jesus to return today?

My expectation = DEATH a day and hour i dont know.

Just like faith in the day and hour when the bride was taken i dont know but trust jesus and the apostles were not lying to the bride of Christ in that day.

Jamed 1:5-7 pertains to patience. Wisdom to be patient in difficult times.
 

MatthewG

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Just to clarify just because the first church bride of Christ was taken,


Doesnt mean that fruit stopped being produced.

People still become part of the body of Christ today; its just not like it was when the end of the age of the first christians had ended with the destruction of the material religion in isreal.

Your name is spiritual isrealite - you are part of the body of Christ and your hope should be going after this life to be with God in the kingdom of God due to love and faith.

@Spiritual Israelite
 

MatthewG

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Ive heard so many times in my life you never ask God for patiences cause he will bring forth something that will be challenging yet we have a scripture that pertains to asking him.

People are so funny.
 

Spiritual Israelite

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Why or when do you expect Jesus to return today?
I don't understand your question. I don't expect Jesus to return today, though I believe He could.

My expectation = DEATH a day and hour i dont know.
What are you talking about? You are equating death with His return? I can't understand what you're saying.

Just like faith in the day and hour when the bride was taken i dont know but trust jesus and the apostles were not lying to the bride of Christ in that day.
Again, I don't know what you're talking about. You need to learn how to be more specific. Use scripture to back up your claims.

Jamed 1:5-7 pertains to patience. Wisdom to be patient in difficult times.
No, it pertains to wisdom in general. You can ask God for wisdom to understand the things we're talking about. If you believe and don't doubt, then God will give it to you.
 

MatthewG

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I don't understand your question. I don't expect Jesus to return today, though I believe He could.


What are you talking about? You are equating death with His return? I can't understand what you're saying.


Again, I don't know what you're talking about. You need to learn how to be more specific. Use scripture to back up your claims.


No, it pertains to wisdom in general. You can ask God for wisdom to understand the things we're talking about. If you believe and don't doubt, then God will give it to you.
You dont always have to use scripture; when you go by the spirit.

Im not sure what it is you have a problem with other than I dont expect to see Jesus in the clouds for now today…

I do equate with return in death because when people die what happens in my belief in faith is people go forward to go and see God to be judged; and then given their spiritual body.

Will we meet Jesus? Perhaps so; I hope so, in faith; even to go feast with Abraham, Isacc, and Jacob in the new Spiritual Kingdom in Heaven with its inner inside of the kingdom and outside for those who are unfaithful.

Idk what you are even talking about because all that has been heard is what i believe is a lie.

Are you an authority that say you can only believe the way you see things? If that is the case who gives you that authority?
 
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rwb

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You say "Exactly!" and then proceed to disagree with what I said? I'm completely baffled. Paul said that the natural body is raised a spiritual body. You, on the other hand, said the spirit is raised a spiritual body. How are you not seeing that you said something different than what Paul said?

We're going to have to just agree to disagree on this. We're nowhere near on the same page on this. Oh well. It happens. Not reasonable to think we will agree on everything. But, we're just spinning our wheels at this point when it comes to this topic and I don't have the desire to continue doing that.

I said exactly to your posting of vs 44, "it is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body." Paul makes no mention of a bodily resurrection when our body physically dies and is sown in its natural, physical, corrupt, mortal self. When our body is sown after natural physical death, it is raised a spiritual body, not a physical, immortal & incorruptible one that shall be. According to Paul that raised a spiritual body shall be at that moment as are the heavenly/celestial bodies, like the angels of God, the image of the heavenly as the second man, the Lord from heaven. The physical body sown natural will not be resurrected immortal & incorruptible until the last trump sounds.

I'm saying exactly what Paul says, how can you not see what Paul said?
 

Spiritual Israelite

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You dont always have to use scripture; when you go by the spirit.

Im not sure what it is you have a problem with other than I dont expect to see Jesus in the clouds for now today…
Let me spell it out to you then. I have a problem with the idea that Jesus has already come bodily and will not come bodily in the future. The resurrection of the dead won't happen until He comes in the future, so I have a problem with the idea that the resurrection of the dead already occurred, also.

I do equate with return in death because when people die what happens in my belief in faith is people go forward to go and see God to be judged; and then given their spiritual body.

Will we meet Jesus? Perhaps so; I hope so, in faith; even to go feast with Abraham, Isacc, and Jacob in the new Spiritual Kingdom in Heaven with its inner inside of the kingdom and outside for those who are unfaithful.
I think it's sad that you don't know if you will meet Jesus or not. Anyone who has a personal relationship with Him will meet Him! Do you not have the hope described here:

1 John 3:1 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

Idk what you are even talking about because all that has been heard is what i believe is a lie.

Are you an authority that say you can only believe the way you see things? If that is the case who gives you that authority?
You can choose to believe what I'm saying or not. I believe I get my understanding from scripture and from the Holy Spirit. I would assume we all believe that? Yet, we don't all agree. So, some of us are mistaken, obviously. Ask God to show you if you are mistaken or not.
 

MatthewG

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Im okay with what i said; your no authority, @Spiritual Israelite.

You have your own issues and that is something that is an inner issue you gotta work with God about; sir.

God bless and hope all things are going well for you in your life
 

MatthewG

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We all gotta die some day.

What is that like…

I have no idea but hopeful the transfer from here to there is fast.

And all one can do is hope in faith;

Ya know?

Faith, hope, and Love with love being the greatest.

Goodnight.
 

Spiritual Israelite

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I said exactly to your posting of vs 44, "it is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body."
You said in post #389 "When the natural body dies our spirit is raised a spiritual body.". That is different than saying our natural body will be raised a spiritual body, as Paul indicated. If you continue reading through verse 54, you can see that what Paul was saying is that our natural body will be changed into a spiritual body that is immortal and incorruptible. And it will be glorious and powerful as well, according to verse 43.

Paul makes no mention of a bodily resurrection when our body physically dies and is sown in its natural, physical, corrupt, mortal self.
And I have made no mention of such a thing, either.

When our body is sown after natural physical death, it is raised a spiritual body, not a physical, immortal & incorruptible one that shall be.
I disagree. That is not how I understand what Paul said. I have already explained how I interpret what he said in 1 Corinthians 15, so I'm not going to say it again.

According to Paul that raised a spiritual body shall be at that moment as are the heavenly/celestial bodies, like the angels of God, the image of the heavenly as the second man, the Lord from heaven. The physical body sown natural will not be resurrected immortal & incorruptible until the last trump sounds.

I'm saying exactly what Paul says, how can you not see what Paul said?
You should know me better than to ask me a question like this. It doesn't deserve an answer. I, of course, do believe I am seeing what he said. I just happen to interpret what he said differently than you do.
 

Timtofly

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Are you serious? All pre-mills have that perspective because all pre-mills believe that the first resurrection refers to a mass bodily resurrection of believers. Can you name one pre-mill who does not have that perspective? Do you not have that perspective? If so, tell me your understanding of how someone has part in the first resurrection.
So you don't accept a physical resurrection? I guess that explains it then.

One does not have to be resurrected at all. Paul was never expected to be resurrected, but alive and remain at the Second Coming.

Amils don't believe in a mass bodily resurrection?

The soul enters God's permanent incorruptible physical body. That is a first resurrection. The soul does not enter another soul. The soul does not enter a spirit. If the soul leaves this current physical body, then the first resurrection is entering a different physical body. The physical body is not resurrected and changed. That body has returned to dust. It no longer exists as a physical body, even if there is a skeleton.

The first resurrection is not that old body coming out of the grave. It is the first physical body the soul enters after leaving this physical body.

The only mass body resurrection happened at the Cross. That was the only mass physical resurrection that will ever happen in history. So it cannot fit the point, another one must happen for there to be a first resurrection. Was there a "must" involved in even that first, first resurrection? Do you even accept there is a physical body involved?

The person who started this thread is not even sure if the first resurrection involves a physical body. Was Jesus born with a physical body, or was it merely spiritual and not physical? That is why I cannot fathom this doctrine that tends to divide creation into spiritual and physical attributes. Adam had a physical body that was spiritual, because it came from God. And it came from physical dirt from God. It was spiritual because it was of God, not God.

Adam lost that physical body and was given a temporal, corruptible body of death. Jesus was born with God's permanent incorruptible physical body, not Adam's dead corruptible temporal flesh. It did not have to die, to change. It was already permanent and incorruptible. It died because death was required of a Lamb sacrifice. His body did not change, but Jesus experienced the first death and first resurrection, because the soul and spirit left the physical body for 3 days as required of proof of death.

Of course we can only take God's Word for it, because they sealed the stone, and no one could see even what happened during those 3 days to that body. So destroying the clear meaning of the first birth, death, and resurrection just to make some nonsensical human theological doctrine is certainly an option. But not the only option. And no, there must not be just one option, obviously. If we could not have any other thoughts, it would never be a debate to begin with.

The first resurrection has been an ongoing phenomenon since the Cross. The blessing is realized already in Paradise. Revelation 20:4 just gives us a glimpse of that last group of souls allowed this permanent incorruptible physical body. This is not a mass bodily resurrection. This is an event where some experience the first resurrection.

Matthew 27 is the only place that declares they came out of their tombs, but it does not define the physical body they had. Most assume they all died again, but why have two first resurrections? Still no pre-mill around that I know of states they must have had a physical body to enjoy that first resurrection.

Although, do you claim they did not have a first resurrection, thereby avoiding the point altogether? Should we now say it is wrong, that people must have a physical body to have a first birth? Seems like only those claiming the second birth is the first resurrection, are those who turn creation into something it is not. The second birth and death is spiritual. That is because in our condition the spiritual and physical are divided. That does not mean it is divided for those currently in Paradise, nor ever divided for those after physical death. Just because a soul does not have a body, does not mean the physical aspects of creation cease to exist. In fact they still feel and experience a lot of physical attributes of creation. Torment is still torment either physical or spiritual, there is no separation of reality for torment.

The second birth is still typified as a resurrection out of death, but cannot be the first resurrection, as that is physical. The second birth gives you a spiritual standing with God as a son of God. The first resurrection gives you a physical body as a son of God. Being glorified or putting on immortality, which is just a negative way of saying "life", is putting on the spirit. Putting on life is putting on the spirit. Putting on the robe of white in the 5th Seal is putting on the spirit. That is the third aspect of being (of God). The third birth, yet to happen to the church as a whole, if you may. Except it is not a birth, but way more than a resurrection. Being glorified is not the first resurrection nor the second birth. But it is what makes us whole: soul, body, and spirit.
 

rwb

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You said in post #389 "When the natural body dies our spirit is raised a spiritual body.". That is different than saying our natural body will be raised a spiritual body, as Paul indicated. If you continue reading through verse 54, you can see that what Paul was saying is that our natural body will be changed into a spiritual body that is immortal and incorruptible. And it will be glorious and powerful as well, according to verse 43.

Paul did NOT say our natural body will be raised a spiritual body! That makes no sense! We are flesh and bones with a spirit that gives our body life, or we are a living spiritual soul, that has no substance, is as a ghost or the air. The physical body is made to inhabit the earth or natural realm, and the spiritual body afterward is made to inhabit heaven or the spiritual realm of God.

First, in this life we have a natural body that has form, that has physical life through the spirit in them. Then afterward our natural physical body dies when the spirit in them departs. That which is spiritual has no form. When Christ yields up His spirit to the Father, it is written "gave up the ghost" (Mk 15:37). Christ says a spirit does not consist of flesh and bones as the disciples first saw Him after His resurrection.

1 Corinthians 15:46 (KJV) Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

Luke 24:36-39 (KJV)
And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you. But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit. And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts? Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

Up to verse 51 Paul has been teaching that death for those who physically die is NOT death for our eternal spirits. If it were Christ would not have given us assurance that death no longer has a hold on those of faith in Him. We obtained ETERNAL life the moment we believed, being born again or born from above. When Christ gave us this assurance His friend Lazarus was physically dead! So that which NEVER dies after being born again is our spirit, which will live on after physical death in heaven a spiritual body, until the Kingdom of God in heaven is complete and the seventh trumpet begins to sound that time for evangelizing the world with the Gospel shall be no longer.

1 Corinthians 15:51-54 (KJV) Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

Beginning in vs 51, Paul then speaks of what shall become of our physical bodies that are dead and buried. Paul says for those who died in Christ, their bodies too shall be raised incorruptible and put on immortality. In this we shall be as Christ is, without sin and never to die again.

Paul says are natural, physical, mortal, corruptible bodies destined to die are changed to incorruptible and immortal. It is in this manner we shall see Christ as He is and be like Him, i.e., immortal & incorruptible. Paul does not say our changed bodies will possess supernatural power that you seem to imply. The bodies raised and changed are the bodies sown, according to Paul. Therefore they shall be physical form, and through our eternal spirit that returns with Christ, they shall once more have the breath of life to once again be as man was created before sin and death through sin entered into God's creation.

The body sown is sown in weakness and shall be raised in glory. Not with glory, but IN glory of the Lord. Sown in weakness raised in power. Not with power, but IN power of the Holy Spirit in us. To God alone be all glory and power.

Revelation 5:13 (KJV) And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.
 

MatthewG

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@rwb

Have you ever considered that the spirit that God breathed into adam is simply the life giving spirit - which is irresepect to our soul? Which indirectly directly gives life to it?

Would like to hear your thoughts, thank you.
 

rwb

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@rwb

Have you ever considered that the spirit that God breathed into adam is simply the life giving spirit - which is irresepect to our soul? Which indirectly directly gives life to it?

Would like to hear your thoughts, thank you.

I'm not sure what you mean? If by "life giving spirit" you mean the Holy Spirit, I would say no, I don't believe so. The way I've come to understand the creation of man is that man was created with both an outward physical body, and the breath of life, which is the natural spirit in every man. It is the natural spirit in man that gives life to our physical body. The spirit in man controls every part of man, the brain, heart and every other organ and function of the body, as well as our emotions and without a spirit our body would be without life. Our body with the spirit (breath of life) together became a living soul. As I understand it, the physical body cannot live without a spirit. However, a spirit indwelt with the Holy Spirit from Christ has eternal life and can never die.

When speaking of spirit and soul it is difficult to make a distinction between the two. Because both identify having life. That's why both Paul and John write of life after physical death as souls or spiritual bodies. When we have life (spirit) and physical bodies, we are "living souls". But when the body of faithful saints dies, we are still living souls, but the life we have after physical death is spirit and not flesh & bones.

Hope I've explained in a way you might understand.