Pretrib fallacies

[GeneZ]

Lol. You obviously have a lot to hide. I totally understand. It goes with having zero Scripture to support your doctrine. Your avoidance supports my thesis. No Pretrib can address or rebut it.

If you had Scripture you would give it. But you have nothing.

The strongest Pretrib traits are avoidance and ad hominem.

It is more like someone getting in your face and shouting at you with garlic breath.
No desire to hold a discussion.
Not meaning that he has nothing to say.

 

[GeneZ]

You didn't really answer the question.

Can you take this gift if the Father doesn't give you the ability?


John 6:65 And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”

That granting is accomplished by the God giving the power of God's enabling grace.

If God does not grant the grace?
No one could come to Him.

For grace suppresses the flesh so the soul may decide for itself.

 

[WPM]

Jesus says in Matthew 24:35-41: “Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

He was speaking about how his words will not pass away.


Again... He was referring to how his words will not pass away.

You are really a problem here.
And may end up making this forum a place to be avoided if your ways are allowed to continue.

You butcher the text and refuse to quote the whole context in order to justify your error. That sums up Pretrib. The words of Jesus demolish what you have been taught.

Jesus says in Matthew 24:35-41: “Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming [Gr. parousia] of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming [Gr. parousia] of the Son of man be. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.”

What is "that day" that Jesus refers to here in His teaching?

There is only one answer: the day He just spoke about – the day and hour when "heaven and earth shall pass away." Hello! This couldn’t be clearer. What is more, this "day and hour" when "heaven and earth shall pass away" is confirmed here by Jesus as "the coming of the Son of man." This straightforward teaching totally demolishes the Pretrib scenario.

Jesus then mentions two days in history to show us what His one final climactic return will look like. There is no suggestion of 2 raptures in Jesus teaching. That belongs to your Left Behind novels. That is invented nonsense. The word rapture is not even in the Bible - in the original or the English. Pretribs force it in there to support their error.

• How many wicked survived in Noah's day?
• How many wicked survived in Sodom?

After all, this is the actual subject that Christ is speaking of.

In both of these examples, all the elect were immediately and totally rescued and all the wicked were immediately and totally destroyed. So will it be when He appears.

 

[WPM]

It is more like someone getting in your face and shouting at you with garlic breath.
No desire to hold a discussion.
Not meaning that he has nothing to say.

1. Where is the rapture "for believers" in Scripture?
2. Where is the rapture "for unbelievers" in Scripture?
3. Where is the rapture "for believers" in Revelation?
4. Where is the rapture "for unbelievers" in Revelation?

 

[GeneZ]

You butcher the text and refuse to quote the whole context in order to justify your error. That sums up Pretrib. The words of Jesus demolish what you have been taught.

Jesus says in Matthew 24:35-41: “Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming [Gr. parousia] of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming [Gr. parousia] of the Son of man be. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.”

What is "that day" that Jesus refers to here in His teaching?

There is only one answer: the day He just spoke about – the day and hour when "heaven and earth shall pass away." Hello! This couldn’t be clearer. What is more, this "day and hour" when "heaven and earth shall pass away" is confirmed here by Jesus as "the coming of the Son of man." This straightforward teaching totally demolishes the Pretrib scenario.

Jesus then mentions two days in history to show us what His one final climactic return will look like. There is no suggestion of 2 raptures in Jesus teaching. That belongs to your Left Behind novels. That is invented nonsense. The word rapture is not even in the Bible - in the original or the English. Pretribs force it in there to support their error.

• How many wicked survived in Noah's day?
• How many wicked survived in Sodom?

After all, this is the actual subject that Christ is speaking of.

In both of these examples, all the elect were immediately and totally rescued and all the wicked were immediately and totally destroyed. So will it be when He appears.

I have had enough of you.

Bye! IGNORE

 

[WPM]

I have had enough of you.

Bye! IGNORE

Another one bites the dust!

Pretribs have no answer to the words of Christ and Scripture.

 

[WPM]

Op Note

It is clear that Pretribbers have no answer to the climactic coming of Christ scriptural arguments presented. They are manifestly watertight. This is nothing new. The Scriptures are crystal clear on the subject. I demonstrated in the Op: "Whatever angle you look up Pretrib, it is contradictory and self-defeating. Many of its main arguments are petty, ridiculous and nonsensical!"

Pretribber after Pretribber have reinforced this thesis in their responses. None can address the Op. None can consequently refute the Op. So all we see is constant ad hominem, avoidance, and running. @GeneZ is latest to hit and run. Sadly, the vulgarity of his language is unbecoming of a Christian.

Here is the bottom line: Pretrib has no prooftext. Pretribbers cannot provide one single passage in the whole of God's Word that teaches a rapture of the Church, followed by a 7 years tribulation (or any extended tribulation period), followed by 3rd coming. That is because it does not exist. It is a man-made doctrine that belongs in the Pretrib novels.

 

[GeneZ]

1. Where is the rapture "for believers" in Scripture?
2. Where is the rapture "for unbelievers" in Scripture?
3. Where is the rapture "for believers" in Revelation?
4. Where is the rapture "for unbelievers" in Revelation?

Why do you want to know?
Don't you already know?
So why ask?

Or do you want to just test how well you can dominate over another?

 

[Taken]

IMO Jesus reaps the land (Revelation Greek γη = land):

και εβαλεν ό καθημενος επι της νεφελης το δρεπανον αυτου επι την γην και εθερισθη η γη

"So he who sat upon the cloud swing his sickel upon the land, and the land was reaped.," (Revelation 14:16).

There was no concept of planet earth in Biblical times.

In Brief…

After Christ the Lord Jesus descends to the clouds and Has Redeemed His Church ..
ie. Called His Church up to Him…
ie. The Rapture.

Then…After the 7 seals are Opened, in Heaven, by the Lamb of God.

Then …After the 7 Trumps of the Holy Angels.

Then… Does The Lord Jesus appear (on a White Cloud, in the Likeness as the Son of man,
And … UNSEEN with Him is His Angels and Christs Church…

And then IS the Earth, reaped…Gathering together,
They upon the Earth, Having Made their Allegiance To Satan, and Received His Mark,
That They be Separated (From All the UN-Marked)…and Sent TO the Hell.

Then…
An Angelic Battle…

Then…
Satan his angels, cast to Hell.

Then…
Great destruction increased…
UN-Marked men ON Earth, deciding THEIR Belief.

Mortals without Belief, Killed, Soul Sent to Hell.

Mortals with Belief, Killed, God Saves.

Mortals with Belief, Not Killed, Repopulate the Earth, outside (the Promised Land)…

Christ the Lord Jesus, Returns to Earth, With His Angels, With His Glorified Church…
And Claims His “inheritance”…
The Promised Land…His Kingdom.
The Throne…Jerusalem seat of Governance.
And…
The “Unmarked” Believing Mortals…begin building, towns, cities, nations, establish governments, appoint kings, live, reproduce, die…expand across the world…
…subject to the rule of the King of kings…
Christ King Jesus and His Authority over All kings of the world…

1,000 year, span…
Some Mortals Will, Become sav-ED, Some Will Not…

Ending the 1.000 years…
Then More Major Events…

There was no concept of planet earth in Biblical times.

Disagree.

2 kings:
[5] And he put down the idolatrous priests, whom the kings of Judah had ordained to burn incense in the high places in the cities of Judah, and in the places round about Jerusalem; them also that burned incense unto Baal, to the sun, and to the moon, and to the planets, and to all the host of heaven.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Taken]

You didn't really answer the question.

Can you take this gift if the Father doesn't give you the ability?

No. A man can NOT TAKE what he IS NOT OFFERED.

John 6:65 And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”

Not ALL men Are Offered…Salvation Through Christ Jesus.

Salvation Through Christ Jesus, Requires …. The “IF”… the man Believes In Jesus…
IS The Christ.

So what About the men, who Believe
In their Heart…
* IN God;
* Believe Jesus Existed;
* But Did/Do Not Believe Jesus IS the Christ?

God shall Save.

1 Thes. 4:
[14] For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Taken]

@WPM

• Show me the rapture of the Church in Rev?

Rev does not teach the Rapture.

• Show me the rapture of the Church in the rest of Scripture?

Rest of Scripture?
There is no more rest, continuing Scripture After Revelations.

Did you mean to be specific and ASK where Does Scripture Teach The Rapture of the Church?

That IS taught IN 1 Thes 4:
[15] For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
[16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
[17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

• Where is the rapture "for believers" in Scripture?

Doesn’t exist.
Rapture applies to Heartful Converted IN Christ Believers.

• Where is the rapture "for unbelievers" in Scripture?

Doesn’t Exist.
Rapture applies to Heartful Believers IN the Lord God, Converted by Christ Jesus, Thus being Made members of Christs Church.

• Where is the rapture "for believers" in Revelation?

Doesn’t Exist.
The Rapture is Accomplished, Before the Revelations Revealing Effects of the Tribulations to be Sent Down from Heaven.

• Where is the rapture "for unbelievers" in Revelation?

Doesn’t Exist.

Rapture applies to the converted IN Christ the lord Jesus.

You make BOLD Whiny accusations…
Then you Ask absurd questions about Spiritual Events…
Without Ever giving by Your Word the Slightest indication …
That you have the slightest Clue of What Scriptural Words mean or the Purpose of foretold prophetic, Spiritual Events, and Who and Why such Spiritual Events ARE applicable to Some and Not Others.

You want to SEE the WORD …RAPTURE IN Scripture?
It Doesn’t Exist in primarily English Transliterations…

The MEANING of the Word existed in the Greek translation…Harpazo…
Meaning…caught up, snatched quickly, Taken, Claimed, Removed, Delivered, BY the Power of The Lord….TO the Lord.

Then to the Latin translation…Rapio’/ Rapur’
Meaning …caught up, snatched quickly, Taken, Claimed, Removed, Delivered, BY the Power of the Lord…TO the Lord.

Then to English translation…Rapture
Meaning…caught up, snatched quickly Taken, Claimed, Removed, Delivered, BY the Power of the Lord…TO the Lord.

If you do not bother to learn the history of Transliteration of Scripture to Other Languages…
Learn What Words mean…
Learn Who particular ACTS apply TO…WHEN and WHY…
And make ZERO declaration of “your OWN” Standing / Beliefs…

Why do you think to yourself you are clever in asking Silly Carnal Minded Questions …Regarding Spiritual Events… and think you will Receive an Answer your Carnal Mind will understand?

Scripture IS a Book of “KNOWLEDGE”…
Your freewill to Believe it or Not… Period.

It is men Who Freely Chose to Believe the “KNOWLEDGE”… AND
Confess to Their God…
OR
To Gods Advocate Christ Lord Jesus…
Their Heartful Belief…

*** AND… Then…
From Their God…
OR
Gods Advocate Christ Lord Jesus…
Does such Individual Begin RECEIVING…
From Their God, Gods Advocate Christ Lord Jesus…
The “UNDERSTANDING” of Gods “KNOWLEDGE”.

You present yourself…being Without “Knowledge and without Understanding”…
While wagging your tongue in accusations and demands … that someone should have the capacity of The Lord Gods Role… To Give you Understanding.

Learn the Knowledge First.
You decide to Believe it or not.
Only the Lord God…Gives understanding of Spiritual Things….and Only to Those, who heartfully Believe.

 

[William Barton]

1. Where is the rapture "for believers" in Scripture?
2. Where is the rapture "for unbelievers" in Scripture?
3. Where is the rapture "for believers" in Revelation?
4. Where is the rapture "for unbelievers" in Revelation?

The rapture for unbelievers is consignment to hell until the end of the millennium.

 

[WPM]

Why do you want to know?
Don't you already know?
So why ask?

Or do you want to just test how well you can dominate over another?

I honestly do not know what you believe. Clearly you are Pretrib. But there is such a diverse array of Pretrib views out there today that are opposed to each other that it is hard to grasp what each individual Pretribber holds to. That is why I ask. Before I engage with a Pretrib poster i strive to ascertain what they hold and where they base their position.

Back in 2000 when I started to engage online most Pretribbers believed that Revelation 4:1 was the rapture, Revelation 4-19 was a 7-years trib and Revelation 19 is a 3rd coming of Christ. Today Pretribbers are all over the place. Most Pretribbers see the absurdity of the Rev 4:1 argument. I think the reason many Pretribbers shifted was because of the success of the Posttrib argument exposing the fallacy of the Revelation 4:1 argument.

This is why I ask:

1. Where is the rapture "for believers" in Scripture?
2. Where is the rapture "for unbelievers" in Scripture?
3. Where is the rapture "for believers" in Revelation?
4. Where is the rapture "for unbelievers" in Revelation?

 

[WPM]

The rapture for unbelievers is consignment to hell until the end of the millennium.

Where does it teach that in God's Word? When does that happen?

 

[WPM]

@WPM

• Show me the rapture of the Church in Rev?

Rev does not teach the Rapture.

• Show me the rapture of the Church in the rest of Scripture?

Rest of Scripture?
There is no more rest, continuing Scripture After Revelations.

Did you mean to be specific and ASK where Does Scripture Teach The Rapture of the Church?

That IS taught IN 1 Thes 4:
[15] For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
[16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
[17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

• Where is the rapture "for believers" in Scripture?

Doesn’t exist.
Rapture applies to Heartful Converted IN Christ Believers.

• Where is the rapture "for unbelievers" in Scripture?

Doesn’t Exist.
Rapture applies to Heartful Believers IN the Lord God, Converted by Christ Jesus, Thus being Made members of Christs Church.

• Where is the rapture "for believers" in Revelation?

Doesn’t Exist.
The Rapture is Accomplished, Before the Revelations Revealing Effects of the Tribulations to be Sent Down from Heaven.

• Where is the rapture "for unbelievers" in Revelation?

Doesn’t Exist.

Rapture applies to the converted IN Christ the lord Jesus.

You make BOLD Whiny accusations…
Then you Ask absurd questions about Spiritual Events…
Without Ever giving by Your Word the Slightest indication …
That you have the slightest Clue of What Scriptural Words mean or the Purpose of foretold prophetic, Spiritual Events, and Who and Why such Spiritual Events ARE applicable to Some and Not Others.

You want to SEE the WORD …RAPTURE IN Scripture?
It Doesn’t Exist in primarily English Transliterations…

The MEANING of the Word existed in the Greek translation…Harpazo…
Meaning…caught up, snatched quickly, Taken, Claimed, Removed, Delivered, BY the Power of The Lord….TO the Lord.

Then to the Latin translation…Rapio’/ Rapur’
Meaning …caught up, snatched quickly, Taken, Claimed, Removed, Delivered, BY the Power of the Lord…TO the Lord.

Then to English translation…Rapture
Meaning…caught up, snatched quickly Taken, Claimed, Removed, Delivered, BY the Power of the Lord…TO the Lord.

If you do not bother to learn the history of Transliteration of Scripture to Other Languages…
Learn What Words mean…
Learn Who particular ACTS apply TO…WHEN and WHY…
And make ZERO declaration of “your OWN” Standing / Beliefs…

Why do you think to yourself you are clever in asking Silly Carnal Minded Questions …Regarding Spiritual Events… and think you will Receive an Answer your Carnal Mind will understand?

Scripture IS a Book of “KNOWLEDGE”…
Your freewill to Believe it or Not… Period.

It is men Who Freely Chose to Believe the “KNOWLEDGE”… AND
Confess to Their God…
OR
To Gods Advocate Christ Lord Jesus…
Their Heartful Belief…

*** AND… Then…
From Their God…
OR
Gods Advocate Christ Lord Jesus…
Does such Individual Begin RECEIVING…
From Their God, Gods Advocate Christ Lord Jesus…
The “UNDERSTANDING” of Gods “KNOWLEDGE”.

You present yourself…being Without “Knowledge and without Understanding”…
While wagging your tongue in accusations and demands … that someone should have the capacity of The Lord Gods Role… To Give you Understanding.

Learn the Knowledge First.
You decide to Believe it or not.
Only the Lord God…Gives understanding of Spiritual Things….and Only to Those, who heartfully Believe.

Thank you for at least explaining that there is no Pretrib rapture in Revelation. So, now that we know that, it seems like 1 Thessalonians 4 is your only rapture Scripture in the whole of the Bible. Are you admitting you have no corroboration for your opinion of 1 Thessalonians 4 in the rest of the Bible (including Revelation)? Thanks for the clarification!

Where is a tribulation period mentioned after the rapture in 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17

 

[CrowCross]

That granting is accomplished by the God giving the power of God's enabling grace.

If God does not grant the grace?
No one could come to Him.

For grace suppresses the flesh so the soul may decide for itself.

It's all the Trinitarian Godhead at work...and zero % us.

 

[William Barton]

1. Where is the rapture "for believers" in Scripture?
2. Where is the rapture "for unbelievers" in Scripture?
3. Where is the rapture "for believers" in Revelation?
4. Where is the rapture "for unbelievers" in Revelation?

The rapture is shown in Revelation 14:4-16 (Jesus descended to a cloud). The purpose is to remove believers from the judgements about to befall the land.

It is explained in 1Thessalonians 4:16-17:

"For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the archangel's call, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And *the dead in Christ will rise first.* Then we who are alive, who are left, shall be caught up *together with them in the clouds* to meet the Lord *in the air;* and so shall we always be with the Lord."

There has always been tribulation. The rapture is prior to the *great* tribulation (Matthew 24:21).

It's in the Book!

 

[GeneZ]

IMO Jesus reaps the land (Revelation Greek γη = land):

και εβαλεν ό καθημενος επι της νεφελης το δρεπανον αυτου επι την γην και εθερισθη η γη

"So he who sat upon the cloud swung his sickle upon the *land,* and the *land* was reaped." (Revelation 14:16)

There was no concept of planet *earth* in Biblical times.

This answers that question...

bible verses about the earth being a sphere.

 

[GeneZ]

It's all the Trinitarian Godhead at work...and zero % us.

So, that means God must do our believing for us?
Hows that?

What you say does make some people feel ultra-humble.
But it is a bad witness to those with common sense.

Faith is what we choose to believe.

God gives us what we are to believe, which becomes our faith when we believe.

Here it is...

​

So then faith comes by hearing, ​

and hearing by the word of God. ​

​

Romans 10:17

The use of 'hearing' means like when someone tells us something we need to know, and we tell them...

"I hear you, brother." (I comprehend.)

It does not mean simply hearing words being said.

.......

 

[WPM]

The rapture is shown in Revelation 14:4-16 (Jesus descended to a cloud). The purpose is to remove believers from the judgements about to befall the land.

It is explained in 1Thessalonians 4:16-17:

"For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the archangel's call, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And *the dead in Christ will rise first.* Then we who are alive, who are left, shall be caught up *together with them in the clouds* to meet the Lord *in the air;* and so shall we always be with the Lord."

There has always been tribulation. The rapture is prior to the *great* tribulation (Matthew 24:21).

It's in the Book!

Revelation 14:4-16 shows the rescue of God's elect and the destruction of the wicked. I don't know how you can get your prolonged tribulation period into that. Is one of several recaps in revelation, show on the climatic return of the Lord Jesus Christ. What we are looking at is different camera views of the one game.

This symbolic closing scene in the parable of the wheat and tares of time is closely mirrored in Revelation 14:14-20, saying, “And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man (Christ), having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle. And another angel (angel 1) came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe. And he that sat on the cloud (Christ) thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped. And another angel (angel 2) came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle. And another angel (angel 3) came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe. And the angel (angel 3) thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.”

This narrative reveals a vivid account of the harvest that accompanies the second coming at the end of this age. We see “the Son of man” appearing upon “a white cloud” with “a golden crown” upon His head and “a sharp sickle” in His hand to reap that final crop “for the harvest of the earth is ripe.” As is seen in other Scripture, it is at the second coming that the wicked are finally cast “into the great winepress of the wrath of God.” The wicked will not survive this awful concluding day of destruction. We should state, the symbolism here should not be confused with Christ’s illustration of the vine in John 15. The earth is depicted as one overall symbolic ripe vine that is ready for harvesting. This is indeed “the harvest of the earth” of which the figurative sickle “thrust in” to in order to perfect the harvest.

John the Baptist testified of Christ and of the general judgment, in Matthew 3:12, saying, “he will throughly purge his floor, and (1) gather his wheat into the garner; but he will (2) katakausei up the chaff with unquenchable fire.”

The word katakakeesetai used here in the original denotes complete destruction. It means to be ‘utterly burned up’ or ‘wholly consumed’. Christ uses similar language to that of John the Baptist in our previous passage, in Matthew 13:30, when speaking of the wheat and the tares, saying, “Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to katakausei (or) ‘utterly burn up’ or ‘wholly consume’ them: but gather the wheat into my barn.” And verse 40 continues, “As therefore the tares are gathered and katakausei (or) ‘utterly burned up’ or ‘wholly consumed’ in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this age.”

Some take John’s pronouncement to be slightly different to the wheat/tares parable in that it is speaking of the visible church (or those that profess). Whilst they still relate to the wicked, John simply uses slightly different symbolism.