PRETRIB RAPTURE ANCIENT ROOTS

[WPM]

The lie of no rapture before Darby

I do not follow outside links, that is because they cannot be challenged or questioned. Who was before Darby, apart Edward Irving and the the Jesuits?

 

[WPM]

You got one thing right. The Church is gathered after the tribulation. THE CHURCH IS GATHERED FROM HEAVEN AFTER THE TRIBULATION.
We return with the Lord as there is also a gathering from the earth.

Mark 13
27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

Those that are gathered from the earth that get victory over the beast are singing the song of Moses as these are obviously of the twelve tribes.

Revelation 15
2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.

After the fullness of the Gentiles comes in at the pretribulation rapture, part of Israel will have its blindness removed.

There are two raptures. The Church is raptured pretrib and the 12 tribes across the earth, the seed of the woman is raptured immediately after the tribulation.........before the 7th seal one year wrath of God.

The woman, Israel, remains on earth during the wrath of God in a place of protection.

Here we go again. You seem to think, if you state an extra-biblical opinion, that makes it a fact. Well, that is not the way it works.

• Show us one Scripture that teaches that "the feasts of God are a picture of the end times"?
• Show me New Testament Scripture that teaches that “there are two harvests? The grain harvest and the fruit harvest”?
• Where is "the grain harvest" mentioned in the New Testament?
• Where is "the fruit harvest " mentioned in the New Testament?
• Where is "the barley harvest" that you have previously invented and foisted on Scripture mentioned in the New Testament?
• Where is "the wheat harvest" that you have previously invented and foisted on Scripture mentioned in the New Testament?
• Where is all this jargon about "on the Feast of Trumpets, the fall harvest feast" in the New Testament text or in any rapture passage?
• Where in the New Testament does it say “there are two raptures – grain and fruit”?
• Where does it say anywhere in Scripture that “Noah is a picture of the Pretrib rapture” and “Lot is a picture of the Jewish harvest”

Take them one at a time - if you can! Start with Number 1. Is that such a hard ask?

 

[WPM]

You got one thing right. The Church is gathered after the tribulation. THE CHURCH IS GATHERED FROM HEAVEN AFTER THE TRIBULATION.
We return with the Lord as there is also a gathering from the earth.

Mark 13
27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

Those that are gathered from the earth that get victory over the beast are singing the song of Moses as these are obviously of the twelve tribes.

Revelation 15
2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.

After the fullness of the Gentiles comes in at the pretribulation rapture, part of Israel will have its blindness removed.

There are two raptures. The Church is raptured pretrib and the 12 tribes across the earth, the seed of the woman is raptured immediately after the tribulation.........before the 7th seal one year wrath of God.

The woman, Israel, remains on earth during the wrath of God in a place of protection.

There is one coming of Jesus Christ. He is coming "with" and "for" His saints at the one time. This is not separated by some imaginary tribulation invented by the Jesuits.

Ephesians 1:10 supports this: “That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him.”

Colossians 1:20: “having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.”

When Christ comes He will bring the dead in Christ with Him. Jesus said in Matthew 24:31, of His Coming, “And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.”

Mark 13:27 enlarges slightly, saying, “And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.”

I Thessalonians 3:13 says, “To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints."

1 Thessalonians 4:14 says, “For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.”

Jude 14 similarly says, “And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints. To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.”

 

[Ronald D Milam]

The nation of Israel is not a large enough for over a billion Christians.

The gathering of the elect in Matthew 24:31 and Mark 13:27 is referring to the final gathering of the children of Israel, the Jews, out of the nations to the land of Israel. Fulfilling a promise that God made in Deuteronomy 30:1-6

No Douggg by that time (Matt. 24:31) Israel have already repented and fled into the Petra/Bozrah area, so they were gathered back unto Israel before the 70th week even starts. The Regathering started in 1948 and is ongoing. Vs. 31 is the 2nd coming when Jesus gathers the elect from the Petra/Bozrah area and wherever they are at in the world.

You are correct its not the pre trib. Resurrection, BUT REMEMBER, the Jews are the Fathers bride, they will thus not go to heaven to marry the Lamb as we do, Dan. 12:1-2 says the Holy peoples/Israel are raised at the very end. People mix up the Wheat (Israel) with the church.

 

[Ronald D Milam]

Post tribulation rapture adherents have about 10 or 15 talking points.
.
One of their talking points is, that John Darby invented the pre-tribulation rapture doctrine. They have other similar talking points that have absolutely nothing to do with the Bible, and absolutely nothing to do with doctrine, but they look back to these ancient Dead men, that the Catholic Church was formed after, who had tremendous error.
Error so Bad that Irenaous had to write a book called ,"against heresies", of these dead ancients.
Postrib rapture adherents, have as their main building block of the post tribulation rapture doctrine , ancient Dead men with limited revelation.

....oh and yes Darby is not in the bible.
That word appears in CATHOLIC anti pretrib talking points.

Hmmmmm
Sounds like the modern postribbers.
Consistent they are.

It is such an IGNORANT ARGUMENT to boot. No one had bibles until the printing press per se so they were all stuck listening to other men's POV. Paul wrote letters unto the church and CLEARLY SHOWS a pre trib. Rapture. They make an ignorant lazy argument because we destroy all of their talking points with facts.

 

[WPM]

No Douggg by that time (Matt. 24:31) Israel have already repented and fled into the Petra/Bozrah area, so they were gathered back unto Israel before the 70th week even starts. The Regathering started in 1948 and is ongoing. Vs. 31 is the 2nd coming when Jesus gathers the elect from the Petra/Bozrah area and wherever they are at in the world.

You are correct its not the pre trib. Resurrection, BUT REMEMBER, the Jews are the Fathers bride, they will thus not go to heaven to marry the Lamb as we do, Dan. 12:1-2 says the Holy peoples/Israel are raised at the very end. People mix up the Wheat (Israel) with the church.

Anyone that has engaged with Pretribbers on forums like this will know that they cannot furnish us with one single proof text to support their teaching. They cannot show you where in Scripture teaches a rapture of the Church, followed by seven-year tribulation, followed by a third coming of the Lord. That is because it does not exist. It is a man-made doctrine. They seem incapable of recognizing that there is only one final future coming of the Lord. That event will see Jesus coming literally, physically and visibly "with" and "for" His people. Multiple Scripture proves that He will rescue all His elect and then destroy all the wicked. This is shown to be the end!

 

[WPM]

This video discusses the pretrib rapture views and debunks the notion it originated with Darby.

How about actually showing us any Scripture that teaches a rapture of the Church followed by a 7 years trib followed by a 3rd coming, instead of always voicing personal opinions?

 

[rebuilder 454]

How about actually showing us any Scripture that teaches a rapture of the Church followed by a 7 years trib followed by a 3rd coming, instead of always voicing personal opinions?

Been there done that.
Pay attention.
Truth hidden in plain sight.
I can do your request ( for about the 100th time)
But you will not listen, nor are you will to investigate.
I can show the impossibility of your position.
The building blocks of the pretrib rapture.
And the out and out lies of false doctrine.

 

[WPM]

Been there done that.
Pay attention.
Truth hidden in plain sight.
I can do your request ( for about the 100th time)
But you will not listen, nor are you will to investigate.
I can show the impossibility of your position.
The building blocks of the pretrib rapture.
And the out and out lies of false doctrine.

LOL. You have nothing. You are promoting an extra-biblical Jesuit invention.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Just post us a real postrib verse.
Stop attacking people's faith and character.
Try and open a bible and go step by step in your one or 2 verses to convince us inferior believers.
( of some postrib rapture)

You were shown Matthew 24:29-31 which has Jesus returning immediately AFTER the TRIBULATION of those days at which point the elect will be gathered, which shows His coming and the rapture is post-trib, and you just dismissed that. You obviously will dismiss any argument made to prove post-trib no matter how explicit the text is because you just believe whatever you want to believe.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Been there done that.
Pay attention.
Truth hidden in plain sight.
I can do your request ( for about the 100th time)
But you will not listen, nor are you will to investigate.
I can show the impossibility of your position.
The building blocks of the pretrib rapture.
And the out and out lies of false doctrine.

You are completely incapable of refuting post-trib. You've proven that many times. Your arguments are always incoherent.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

There is one coming of Jesus Christ. He is coming "with" and "for" His saints at the one time. This is not separated by some imaginary tribulation invented by the Jesuits.

Ephesians 1:10 supports this: “That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him.”

Colossians 1:20: “having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.”

When Christ comes He will bring the dead in Christ with Him. Jesus said in Matthew 24:31, of His Coming, “And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.”

Mark 13:27 enlarges slightly, saying, “And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.”

I Thessalonians 3:13 says, “To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints."

1 Thessalonians 4:14 says, “For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.”

Jude 14 similarly says, “And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints. To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.”

Right. He is coming from heaven only once in the future and it will be in the same way or manner as He left earth and it will be "to bring salvation to those who are waiting to Him". Nowhere does scripture teach that He will descend from heaven twice in the future.

Acts 1:9 After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight. 10 They were looking intently up into the sky as he was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them. 11 “Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.”

Hebrews 9:27 Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, 28 so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

It is such an IGNORANT ARGUMENT to boot. No one had bibles until the printing press per se so they were all stuck listening to other men's POV. Paul wrote letters unto the church and CLEARLY SHOWS a pre trib. Rapture. They make an ignorant lazy argument because we destroy all of their talking points with facts.

Where did Paul ever teach a pre-trib rapture?

 

[WPM]

You are completely incapable of refuting post-trib. You've proven that many times. Your arguments are always incoherent.

All he has is avoidance and insults.

Welcome to Pretrib and Premil on public forums.

 

[The Light]

Here we go again. You seem to think, if you state an extra-biblical opinion, that makes it a fact. Well, that is not the way it works.

• Show us one Scripture that teaches that "the feasts of God are a picture of the end times"?
• Show me New Testament Scripture that teaches that “there are two harvests? The grain harvest and the fruit harvest”?
• Where is "the grain harvest" mentioned in the New Testament?
• Where is "the fruit harvest " mentioned in the New Testament?
• Where is "the barley harvest" that you have previously invented and foisted on Scripture mentioned in the New Testament?
• Where is "the wheat harvest" that you have previously invented and foisted on Scripture mentioned in the New Testament?
• Where is all this jargon about "on the Feast of Trumpets, the fall harvest feast" in the New Testament text or in any rapture passage?
• Where in the New Testament does it say “there are two raptures – grain and fruit”?
• Where does it say anywhere in Scripture that “Noah is a picture of the Pretrib rapture” and “Lot is a picture of the Jewish harvest”

Take them one at a time - if you can! Start with Number 1. Is that such a hard ask?

Please look for the post that has already addressed these things.

 

[The Light]

There is one coming of Jesus Christ. He is coming "with" and "for" His saints at the one time. This is not separated by some imaginary tribulation invented by the Jesuits.

Ephesians 1:10 supports this: “That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him.”

Colossians 1:20: “having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.”

When Christ comes He will bring the dead in Christ with Him. Jesus said in Matthew 24:31, of His Coming, “And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.”

Mark 13:27 enlarges slightly, saying, “And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.”

I Thessalonians 3:13 says, “To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints."

1 Thessalonians 4:14 says, “For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.”

Jude 14 similarly says, “And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints. To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.”

If there is only one coming of Jesus what do you do with this coming of Jesus for the 144,000 first fruits of the second harvest.

Revelation 14
1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:

3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

And it's laughable that you mention the Roman Church where Agustus was one of the prime creators of the doctrine you follow.

 

[The Light]

Where did Paul ever teach a pre-trib rapture?

1 Thes 4

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

If there is only one coming of Jesus what do you do with this coming of Jesus for the 144,000 first fruits of the second harvest.

Revelation 14
1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
That's
2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:

3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

And it's laughable that you mention the Roman Church where Agustus was one of the prime creators of the doctrine you follow.

Where does it say anything about a coming of Christ there? Nowhere. That's referring to souls of believers being with Jesus in heaven.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

1 Thes 4

Nope. Absolutely no mention of the rapture being pre-trib there. Try again.

 

[Douggg]

You were shown Matthew 24:29-31 which has Jesus returning immediately AFTER the TRIBULATION of those days at which point the elect will be gathered, which shows His coming and the rapture is post-trib,

Angels do not have the power the translate/change your body from corruptible to incorruptible. So Matthew 24:31 involving angels gathering is not referring to the resurrection/rapture of 1Thessalonians 4:14-18.