PRETRIB RAPTURE ANCIENT ROOTS

[marks]

Waiting on you @marks

Do you believe the words of Christ in John 10:7-16
a.) two folds
b.) One Shepherd/Christ
c.) the two folds are brought together in One Flock by Christ
d.) all who hear the Voice of Christ and follow Him are His sheep

Remember . . . "sheep" and "goats" are used as a simile to describe Jesus' actions as He gathers the nations together, and separates them "Like a shepherd separating the sheep and goats".

When we look past the simile, to what Jesus is saying, we see that He's gathered the nations, and is separating them into two groups, those who cared for the needs of Jesus' brothers, and those who did not.

To those who were found to have done these works, they are brought into the kingdom. Those who lack these works are sent to punishment.

Do you believe the words of Jesus in John 3:16? That whosoever believe in Him will not perish? You ask if I believe Jesus' words in various places. Certainly I believe Jesus, just as in John 3:16. But these verses don't change the content of Jesus' prophecy.

This is what I'm trying to impress upon you. You often speak of believing Jesus' words and rightly so. Now I insist you believe Jesus in these passages also.

Much love!

 

[David in NJ]

You aren't answering my questions. Do you want to look like you are responding to me even though you haven't responded?

This is clear narrative prophecy. It's not rocket science. If you understand the prophecy you shouldn't have trouble answering these simple questions.

Jesus comes and gathers the chosen, which is Israel. Then He gathers the nations, and judges them according to whether they cared for the needs of the Jews or not.

Clear narrative prophecy.

If you think this isn't correct, then answer me, who are the sheep? And why are they gathered separately? Why are they mixed with the goats? Why are they judged righteous according to their works?

If you are not able to give clear and succint answers such as I have done, isn't it a possibility that you haven't actually understood it?

There is no shame in making a mistake, the only shame I see is if you refuse to let it go once discovered.

Much love!

Jesus comes and gathers the chosen, which is Israel. Then He gathers the nations, and judges them according to whether they cared for the needs of the Jews or not.

Post this scripture for just as i do for you so that we do not misunderstand each other - thank you

 

[marks]

Where did JESUS supposedly distinguish a separate group of saved people who are chosen but not His sheep?

You continue to reply but not answer. That speaks volumes, you know! This is Jesus' prophecy. That the chosen will be gathered, and later, the nations will be gathered, to be separated and either received into the kingdom or sent away.

Trying to make this out like something I'm making up is a straight up denial of Jesus' word. He is the one who said this. Not me. Jesus. Believe Him.

Much love!

 

[David in NJ]

Remember . . . "sheep" and "goats" are used as a simile to describe Jesus' actions as He gathers the nations together, and separates them "Like a shepherd separating the sheep and goats".

When we look past the simile, to what Jesus is saying, we see that He's gathered the nations, and is separating them into two groups, those who cared for the needs of Jesus' brothers, and those who did not.

To those who were found to have done these works, they are brought into the kingdom. Those who lack these works are sent to punishment.

Do you believe the words of Jesus in John 3:16? That whosoever believe in Him will not perish? You ask if I believe Jesus' words in various places. Certainly I believe Jesus, just as in John 3:16. But these verses don't change the content of Jesus' prophecy.

This is what I'm trying to impress upon you. You often speak of believing Jesus' words and rightly so. Now I insist you believe Jesus in these passages also.

Much love!

Please post the scripture where JESUS says "those who cared for the needs of Jesus' brothers, and those who did not."

 

[David in NJ]

You continue to reply but not answer. That speaks volumes, you know! This is Jesus' prophecy. That the chosen will be gathered, and later, the nations will be gathered, to be separated and either received into the kingdom or sent away.

Trying to make this out like something I'm making up is a straight up denial of Jesus' word. He is the one who said this. Not me. Jesus. Believe Him.

Much love!

If you post the scripture so that i know exactly where you are deriving your synopsis, then i can review and answer = thank you

 

[marks]

Post this scripture for just as i do for you so that we do not misunderstand each other - thank you

Matthew 24:29-31 KJV
29) Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30) And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31) And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Matthew 25:31-46 KJV
31) When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32) And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33) And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34) Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35) For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36) Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37) Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38) When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39) Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40) And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41) Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42) For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43) I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44) Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45) Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46) And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Who are the elect (chosen)? Who are the sheep? And who are the goats? Why are the sheep gathered separately from the elect? And why are the sheep mixed with the goats when they are gathered?

If you would attempt to answer these questions you will find your view untenable. That is, if you believe Jesus' prophecy in Matthew 25. Many say it's parable, or metaphor, or the same as the great white thone judgment. But it's not, it's simple narrative prophecy just like the others that say the same things.

Much love!

 

[David in NJ]

Matthew 24:29-31 KJV
29) Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30) And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31) And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Matthew 25:31-46 KJV
31) When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32) And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33) And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34) Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35) For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36) Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37) Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38) When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39) Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40) And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41) Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42) For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43) I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44) Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45) Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46) And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Who are the elect (chosen)? Who are the sheep? And who are the goats? Why are the sheep gathered separately from the elect? And why are the sheep mixed with the goats when they are gathered?

If you would attempt to answer these questions you will find your view untenable. That is, if you believe Jesus' prophecy in Matthew 25. Many say it's parable, or metaphor, or the same as the great white thone judgment. But it's not, it's simple narrative prophecy just like the others that say the same things.

Much love!

AWESOME TRUTH

Jew and Gentile are combined in one word = "the nations"

Only those Jews & Gentiles who are His sheep are placed at His Right Hand

The goats are the Jews & Gentiles who did not obey the Gospel that they may be saved = they are placed on His left

JESUS Says: "Whoever does the will of My Father in Heaven is the SAME as My brother and sister and mother" = Matt 12:50

Jews & Gentiles who obey CHRIST are the ones who are nurturing others in CHRIST = Matthew 25:35-40

 

[Douggg]

It seems to me that because the post-trib view that Matthew 24:31 is the resurrection/rapture..... that view pinpoints the resurrection/rapture to a specific day.

Which to me conflicts with Jesus saying no man knows the day nor hour of Matthew 24:36.

Matthew 24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

So since we are currently in a pre-70th week time status, the rapture could happen pre-70th week.

Should the rapture not take place as the 70th week begins, then we should continue to watch - as the resurrection/rapture is even closer.

My point is - don't be so dogmatic. The key is to watch, be prepared, Matthew 24:44

Perhaps I should call that the "watch rapture view".

 

[David in NJ]

It seems to me that because the post-trib view that Matthew 24:31 is the resurrection/rapture..... that view pinpoints the resurrection/rapture to a specific day.

Which to me conflicts with Jesus saying no man knows the day nor hour of Matthew 24:36.

Matthew 24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

So since we are currently in a pre-70th week time status, the rapture could happen pre-70th week.

Should the rapture not take place as the 70th week begins, then we should continue to watch - as the resurrection/rapture is even closer.

My point is - don't be so dogmatic. The key is to watch, be prepared, Matthew 24:44

Perhaps I should call that the "watch rapture view".

What day do you think Matt 24:31 pinpoints?

 

[Douggg]

What day do you think Matt 24:31 pinpoints?

The day of Jesus's return.

 

[David in NJ]

The day of Jesus's return.

When is that?

Can you pinpoint that day from Matthew 24:31

 

[Douggg]

When is that?

Can you pinpoint that day from Matthew 24:31

If you are asking can I produce a calendar day, such as, September 30, 2033..... then "no" I can not.

Can I pinpoint that as far as at the end of the 70th week, then that day is the day of Jesus's return.

Please read my thread I just made on the "watch rapture view".

 

[David in NJ]

If you are asking can I produce a calendar day, such as, September 30, 2033..... then "no" I can not.

Can I pinpoint that as far as at the end of the 70th week, then that day is the day of Jesus's return.

Please read my thread I just made on the "watch rapture view".

JESUS died in the 70th week

 

[Douggg]

JESUS died in the 70th week

Jesus will return at the end of the 70th week, right ?

 

[David in NJ]

Jesus will return at the end of the 70th week, right ?

the 70th week is all about JESUS from His first coming to His 2nd Coming

It also includes the man of sin who will be destroyed at His 2nd Coming

 

[The Light]

I've given this some thought, and I don't think this is describing the rapture.

Personally, I think the rapture may likely occur during the Gog/Magog invasion of Israel, at the great earthquake that is mentioned in Ezekiel 38 and Revelation 7, in both places followed by a rain of fire upon the earth.

Much love!

To me there is no doubt that this is a rapture. Rise up my love and come away. This the rapture of the dead in Christ. This is a secret rapture. He standeth behind our wall and looketh forth at the windows, showing himself through the lattice. This occurs in the spring as winter is past and the flowers apear and the birds begin singing. No earthquake as the voice of the turtle dove is heard in the land.

Song of Solomon 2
8 The voice of my beloved! behold, he cometh leaping upon the mountains, skipping upon the hills.

9 My beloved is like a roe or a young hart: behold, he standeth behind our wall, he looketh forth at the windows, shewing himself through the lattice.

10 My beloved spake, and said unto me, Rise up, my love, my fair one, and come away.

11 For, lo, the winter is past, the rain is over and gone;

12 The flowers appear on the earth; the time of the singing of birds is come, and the voice of the turtle is heard in our land;

There is a change of season. Now the tender grapes give a good smell and the fig tree has put forth figs. Again there is a rise up and come away. The Lord returns for the alive that remained. This rapture also is secret as He is in the clefts of the rocks, in the secret places of the stairs.

Song of Solomon 2
13 The fig tree putteth forth her green figs, and the vines with the tender grape give a good smell. Arise, my love, my fair one, and come away.

14 O my dove, that art in the clefts of the rock, in the secret places of the stairs, let me see thy countenance, let me hear thy voice; for sweet is thy voice, and thy countenance is comely.

The Lord comes for His bride. He comes first in the spring which is the barley harvest. He returns at the end of summer for the wheat harvest. Barley and wheat make up the grain harvest.

There is yet another harvest, the fruit harvest seen here.

Revelation 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

 

[The Light]

Personally, I think the rapture may likely occur during the Gog/Magog invasion of Israel, at the great earthquake that is mentioned in Ezekiel 38 and Revelation 7, in both places followed by a rain of fire upon the earth.

Much love!

I believe you mean Revelation 6, not 7.

You mentioned earthquakes being a sign that the dead are raised. And I agree. But I do not think there is an earthquake at the time the dead in Christ are raised. That said, the earthquake at the 6th seal is the tribulation dead that are raised when Jesus sends His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth.

This is the second rapture that happens just before the wrath of God. That is why there is a great multitude in heaven in Revelation 7.

 

[The Light]

Jesus said that if the days were not cut short, no flesh would survive. Everyone would be dead. But for the sake of the chosen, they have been cut short.

Much love!

That is not what scripture means. It does not mean that no flesh would survive and everyone on the earth would be dead.

The tribulation is when Christians are killed for their faith. If the great tribulation is not cut short there would be no flesh alive caught up in the rapture at the 6th seal. The Church is in heaven before the great tribulation. God turn his attention to the Jews. There are 144,000 frist fruits of the 12 tribes. That means there will be a harvest or rapture of the 12 tribes. If the great tribulation is not cut short when the Christians are being killed, there would be no believers caught up in the flesh unto salvation. All would have to come out of the graves.

The fig tree has two harvests.

Hosea 9
10 I found Israel like grapes in the wilderness; I saw your fathers as the firstripe in the fig tree at her first time: but they went to Baalpeor, and separated themselves unto that shame; and their abominations were according as they loved.

The fathers of Israel were supposed to be the first fruits of the first harvest of the fig tree. But they served Baalpeor and were found as wild grapes. The Gentiles become the first harvest.

What do the Jews say when they realize they have missed the first harvest?

Jeremiah 8
20 The harvest is past, the summer is ended, and we are not saved.

There are two raptures. There are two harvests of the fig tree. Jacob had two brides. Days of Noah and Days of Lot. The Lord His comes for the Church at the first harvest and the Lord sends His angels at the second harvest. One rapture at the trump of God or voice of God and one rapture at the last trump blown on the feast of trumpets.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Your exact words were addressed.
No spin no twisting.

The part about the postrib banner is well known fact.
Every postribber put the ancients as their number 2 foundation stone.
Number 1 is DARBY DARBY DARBY!!!!!

Run for the hills!!!!
Darby Booger man chasing them with a darby bible.

Just another bonus to cheer you guys up.
I know failing my challenge for a postrib rapture verse must be depressing.

...and they are back.
Posting verses that say after the trib angels gather saints In heaven

That gets transposed magically to Jesus gathers saints on earth.

Pooof; magic wand has invented their beloved postrib rapture.

No debate.
Hands down fail.
...and they high five each other laying in ashes
Lol

 

[rebuilder 454]

I only interpret as God's Word says, like the heavens being rolled up like a scroll...

Rev 6:14
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
KJV

Ps 102:25-26
25 Of old hast Thou laid the foundation of the earth: and the heavens are the work of Thy hands.
26 They shall perish, but Thou shalt endure: yea, all of them shall wax old like a garment; as a vesture shalt Thou change them, and they shall be changed:
KJV

Isa 34:4
4 And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree.
KJV

Heb 1:10-12
10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of Thine hands:
11 They shall perish; but Thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;
12 And as a vesture shalt Thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but Thou art the same, and Thy years shall not fail.
KJV

2 Peter 3:10
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
KJV

You talking about that bible that has the setting for the rapture as pretrib?

You talking about those posrtibs that do not know the tares are burned in the lof?

That Lof that is AFTER THE MIL.

you don't have much to celebrate do you?
Cherry picker doctrines are everywhere.
That's about all I see with your efforts.