Proof that Jesus is God

[robert derrick]

You are a mocker but I am not a Jehovaite. I am a unitarian Christian.

Jehovaites cannot be Christians, except in name only. They cannot worship Jesus while Jesus is a created being and not the Creator God.

You are mocked, because you deserve mocking by man and God (Prov 1:26)

Jehovaite.

 

[robert derrick]

You see? The Living Word which is Jesus Christ of Nazareth is the same Living Word that is and was and is to come, that is Jesus' Father AND GOD as well! This same Living Word, was, and IS Jesus Christ, Was and IS the God of the Old Covenant, but in a more "governmental structure", or as Paul said concerning the "Gift of the Holy Spirit?", "different ministrations, or "applications" of this same Living Word! EACH of these different "applications" of the Living Word, is as MUCH God, as the Father who "gives" the Gift of this same Living Word (aka Holy Spirit), as well as "Spiritual Gifts" to whomever "It/He" will for to "profit" not only that one, or ones, Spiritual maturity, but also to help (feed) others towards THEIR Spiritual maturity. As God, this same Living Word, DRAWS one TO Jesus Christ which is ALSO this SAME Living Word. Just a different "ministration", or "application", or one COULD safely discern? This SAME Living Word, ALL with different "parameters" which makes them as DISTINCTLY DIFFERENT from each other as far as IDENTITY, or Title/s, or Offices are concerned! Yet ALL having the SAME PURPOSE! And ALL BEING this SAME Living Word!

Take for example (of truth btw)
Elohim occurs 2.700 times. Its first occurrence connects it with creation, and give it its essential meaning as the Creator. It indicates His relation to mankind as His creatures (see note on 2 Chron. 18:31, where it stands in contrast with Jehovah as indicating covenant relationship). 'Elohim is God the Son, the living "WORD" with creature form to create (John 1:1. Col. 1:15-17. Rev. 3:14); and later, (note the differing minstration?) with human form to redeem (John 1:14). "Begotten of His Father before all worlds; born of His mother, in the world." In this creature form He appeared to the Patriarchs, a form not temporarily assumed. 'Elohim is indicated (as in A.V.) by ordinary small type, "God".

Another?

Jehovah. While Elohim is God as the Creator of all things, Jehovah is the same God in covenant relation to those whom He has created (Cp. 2Chron. 18:31). Jehovah means the Eternal, the Immutable One, He Who WAS, and IS, and IS TO COME. The Divine definition is given in Gen. 21:33. He is especially, therefore, the God of Israel; and the God of those who are redeemed, and are thus now "in Christ". We can say "My God," but not "My Jehovah", for Jehovah is "MY God."

Jehovah is indicated (as in A.V.) by small capital letters, "LORD"' and by "GOD" when it occurs in combination with Adonai, in which case LORD GOD = Adonai Jehovah. The name Jehovah is combined with ten other words, which form what are known as "the Jehovah Titles." in the Hebrew Canon (Ap. 1). All are noted in the margin, in all their occurrences:--

1. JEHOVAH-JIREH = Jehovah will see, or provide. Gen. 22:14.
2. JEHOVAH-ROPHEKA = Jehovah that healeth thee. Ex. 15:26.
3. JEHOVAH-NISSI = Jehovah my banner. Ex. 17:15.
4. JEHOVAH-MeKADDISHKEM = Jehovah that doth sanctify you. Ex. 31:13. Lev. 20:8; 21:8; 22:32. Ezek. 20:12.
5. JEHOVAH-SHALOM = Jehovah [send] peace. Judg. 6:24.
6. JEHOVAH-ZeBA'OTH = Jehovah of hosts. 1Sam. 1:3, and frequently.
7. JEHOVAH-ZIDKENU = Jehovah our righteousness. Jer. 23:6; 33:16.
8. JEHOVAH-SHAMMAH = Jehovah is there. Ezek. 48:35.
9. JEHOVAH-ELYON = Jehovah most high. Ps. 7:17; 47:2; 97:9.
10. JEHOVAH-RO'I = Jehovah my Shepherd. Ps. 23:1.

Jah (Yah) is Jehovah in a special sense and relation. Jehovah as having BECOME our Salvation (first occ. Ex. 15:2), He Who IS, and WAS, and IS TO COME. It occurs 49 times. Jah is Jehovah in a special sense and relation. Jehovah as having BECOME our Salvation (first occ. Ex. 15:2), He Who IS, and WAS, and IS TO COME. It occurs 49 times. Compare Psalm 68. 4, 18.

EL is essentially the Almighty, though the word is never so rendered (see below, "Shaddai"). EL is Elohim in all His strength and power. It is rendered "God" as Elohim is, but El is God the Omnipotent. Elohim is God the Creator putting His omnipotence into operation. Eloah (see below) is God Who wills and orders all, and Who is to be the one object of the worship of His people. El is the God Who knows all (first occ. Gen. 14:18:22) and sees all (Gen. 16:13) and that performeth all things for His people (Ps. 57:2); and in Whom all the Divine attributes are concentrated.
El is indicated in older KJV's by type in large capital letters, thus: "GOD." It is sometimes transliterated in proper names Immanue-'el, Beth-'el, &c., where it is translated,

Eloah is Elohim, Who is to be worshipped. Eloah is God in connection with His Will rather than His power. The first occurrence associates this name with worship (Deut. 32:15, 17). Hence it is the title used whenever the contrast (latent or expressed) is with false gods or idols. Eloah is essentially "the living God" in contrast to inanimate idols. Eloah is rendered "God", but in older KJV's is indicated it by type thus: (in fanciful calligraphic type) GOD.

Elyon first occurs in Gen. 14:18 with El, and is rendered "the most high (God)". It is El and Elohim, not as the powerful Creator, but as "the possessor of heaven and earth." Hence the name is associated with Christ as the Son of "the Highest" (Luke 1:35). It is Elyon, as possessor of the earth, Who divides the nations "their inheritance". In Ps. 83:18, He is "over all the earth". The title occurs 36 times (6 x 6 or 6(squared))
Elyon is the Dispenser of God's blessings in the earth; the blessings proceeding from a Priest Who is a King upon His throne (cp. Gen. 14:18-22 with Zech. 6:13; 14:9).

Shaddai is in every instance translated "Almighty", and is indicated by small capital letters ("ALMIGHTY"). It is God (El), not as the source of strength, but of grace; not as Creator, but as the Giver. Shaddai is the All-bountiful. This title does not refer to His creative power, but to His power to supply all the needs of His people. Its first occurrence is in Gen. 17:1, and is used to show Abraham that He Who called him out to walk alone before Him could supply all his need. Even so it is the title used in 2Cor. 6:18, where we are called and led to "come out" in separation from the world. It is always used in connection with El (see above).

ALL these ARE as MUCH the Living Word as Christ Jesus is!
But? It REQUIRES "Spiritual Discernment" in order to ASCERTAIN the differences!

For it is when one doesn't? Because it seems like so much folly? IOW? How CAN this be?

Is when THIS happens!:

2 Thessalonians 2:4
Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as GOD ALONE sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

"It REQUIRES "Spiritual Discernment" in order to ASCERTAIN the differences!"

Actually I would say a little less spiritual discernment and a little more literal Scripture acceptance.

I like your quote of an antichrist apparently being one who believes in God 'alone' and exclusive; I.e. There is God the Father alone and there is no God the Son with Him.

And of course that 'God alone' is himself, antichrist. I wonder if his name sounds like 'Jehovaite'.

 

[Cooper]

Again, that is not what Scripture says

Jesus is called "the Mighty God, the Everlasting Father" and "Immanuel" (meaning "God with us"). Isaiah 9:6; Isaiah 7:14 and Matthew 1:22–23

Elsewhere Jesus is called "The Lord (Jehovah) our Righteousness," "God" and "Son of God." Jeremiah 23:6; Isaiah 40:3; Hebrews 1:8; 1 Timothy 3:16; John 10:36.

The Bible ascribes the characteristics of deity to Jesus Christ. He is described as eternal, omnipresent, omniscient, omnipotent and immutable. Isaiah 9:6; Micah 5:2; John 1:1–2; 8:58; 17:5; 24; Colossians 1:15, 17; 1 John 1:1; Revelation 1:8); omnipresent (Matthew 18:20; 28:20; John 3:13); omniscient (John 2:24, 25; 16:30; 21:17; Revelation 2:23); omnipotent (Isaiah 9:6; Philippians 3:21; Revelation 1:8; cf. John 5:17; Hebrews 1:3; Matthew 28:18) and immutable (Hebrews 1:10–12; 13:8)

Jesus Christ is equal with God the Father. He is worshiped as God. John 20:28; Acts 7:59; Hebrews 1:6; cf. Exodus 34:14 and Matthew 4:10

The Deity of Jesus | Moody Bible Institute
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[Cooper]

Again, that is not what Scripture says

Again, this is what Scripture says.

Old and New Testament Parallels of God the Father and God the Son

Exodus 3:14 - God says "I AM who I AM" - John 8:58 - Jesus says "Before Abraham was, I AM" in reference to Himself.

Deut. 4:2; 12:32 - the Lord God commands that we not add or take away from His word - Rev. 22:18-19 - Jesus so commands us not to add or take away from His word.

Deut. 32:39; 1 Sam. 2:6 - the Lord kills and makes alive again and raises up - John 5:21 - the Son raises and gives life.

Deut. 32:39 - neither is there any that can deliver out of God's hand - John 10:28 - nor shall any pluck out of Jesus' hand.

Deut. 32:43 - rejoice, ye heavens, with Him, and let all the angels of God worship Him - Heb. 1:6 - the "Him" is Jesus the Son.

2 Sam. 22:3 - God is the horn of salvation - Luke 1:68-69 - Jesus is the horn of salvation.

Psalm 19:7 - the law of the Lord is perfect - Gal. 6:2 - fulfill the law of Christ.

Psalm 24:10 - the Lord is the King of glory - 1 Cor. 2:8 - Jesus is the Lord of glory.

Psalm 45:7 - Therefore God, your God, has anointed you. God calls someone else God. This someone else is His eternally begotten Son - Heb. 1:9 - Therefore God, your God, has anointed you. cf. Heb. 1:8, 10.

Psalm 62:12 - the Lord God renders to each according to his work - Matt. 16:27; Rev. 22:12 - Jesus so renders to each according to his work.

Psalm 71:5 - the Lord God is our hope - 1 Tim. 1:1 - the Lord Jesus Christ who is our hope.

Psalm 89:27 – I will make him the first-born, the highest (“elyon” which refers to God) of the kings of the earth - John 18:36-27 – Jesus is this first-born king.

Psalm 97:9 - the Lord God is above all - John 3:31 - Jesus is above all.

Psalms 110:1 - the Lord (Yahweh) said to my Lord - Jesus = Yhwh - Acts 2:34-36 - God has made Jesus both Lord and Christ.

Psalm 148:1-2 - the angels worship the Lord God - Heb. 1:6 - the angels worship Jesus. Only God is worshiped.

Prov. 3:12 - who the Lord loves He corrects - Rev. 3:19 - who Jesus loves He corrects.

Isaiah 7:14 - a virgin will bear a Son named Emmanuel which means "God is with us" - Matt. 1:23 - this Son is Jesus Christ, God in the flesh.

Isaiah 9:6 - the child to be born shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Isaiah 25:8 - God swallows up death in victory - 2 Tim. 1:10 - Jesus abolishes death and brings life and immortality.

Isaiah 40:8 - the Word of God shall stand forever - Matt. 24:35 - the Words of Jesus shall not pass away.

Isaiah 42:8 - God gives His glory to no other - John 17:5; Heb. 1:3 - yet Jesus has the same glory as the Father.

Isaiah 43:14 - the Lord God is redeemer - Titus 2:14 - Jesus is the redeemer.

Isaiah 44:6 - the Lord God is the first and the last - Rev. 1:17; 2:8; 22:13 - Jesus is the first and the last.

Isaiah 45:19 - I, the Lord God, did not speak in secret - John 18:20 - Jesus said "I have said nothing secretly."

Isaiah 45:23 - to God, every knee shall bow and every tongue swear. Phil. 2:10-11 - at Jesus' name every knee should bow and tongue confess.

Isaiah 48:17 - God is the Holy One - Acts 3:14 - Jesus is the Holy One.

Isaiah 60:19 - God is everlasting light - Revelation 21:23 - Jesus the Lamb is eternal light.

Jer. 17:10 - the Lord searches the hearts and repays us according to our deeds - Rev. 2:23 - Jesus searches the hearts and repays us according to our deeds.

Ezek. 1:26-28; Daniel 7:9 - God's glorious appearance - Rev. 1:13-16 - Jesus' glorious appearance.

Ezek. 34:11-31 - God the Father is the shepherd of the flock - John 10:7-29 - Jesus is the shepherd of the flock.

Ezek. 34:16 - God seeks to save that which was lost - Luke 19:10 - Jesus seeks to save that which was lost.

Ezek. 34:17 - God judges between cattle, rams and goats - Matt. 25:32 - Jesus judges and separates the goats from the sheep.

Ezek. 43:2 - God's voice was like a noise of many waters - Rev. 1:15 - Jesus' voice was like the sound of many waters.

Dan. 2:47 - the Lord is the God of gods and the Lord of Lords - Rev. 17:14 - Jesus the Lamb is the Lord of Lords.

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[amadeus]

Certainly in context of our hope of final destination of heaven, were we shall fully know as we are fully known.

But certainly not in context of plainly written Scripture that has no unclear understanding, but rather is believed or not.

Something in one denominational or even individual conclusion is clear to them or him. To the one outside of such a circle... it is seen differently in places. Who is correct, those inside or those outside? What is the circle? An individual or a group of Baptists, or Methodists, or Catholics, or Pentecostals, or perhaps some other group?

Scripture is written to be understood as a person is led by the Holy Spirit. The problem is that too many people, I believe, routinely practice quenching the Spirit of God and as a result often take on a mixture. How right can it be when it is the Holy Spirit on the one part and the logic and/or traditions of men on the other part? Sounds a bit like the way the Samaritans did it. What is God's perfect Way?

"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD." (Deut 6) "God spoke unto Moses, and said unto him, I am the LORD" (Ex 6) There is one Lord (Eph 4). "Jesus is the Lord" (I Cor 12)

The only muddying of the waters is when certain ones sneak in purposely trying to find a 'metaphor', where literal is the only option. At that time they don't like the 'black and white', but rather the murky grey. Because they don't like the faith that plainly written Scripture commands.

Certain ones sneak in...? Could it be that there is confusion within the camp as well as without? Who is sneaking in to where? Can anyone get past the Holy Spirit to muddy the waters of God's plan for anyone who really is on the Lord's side?. Who already has that perfectly flawless vision of God's plan and is following it perfectly?

The Lord our God is one Lord: Jesus is the Lord. SO simple a child can understand it. Only an unbeliever of Jesus would even attempt to say otherwise.

To humble ourselves becoming as little children is the way Jesus told us to proceed, but how many beyond the level of children in the carnal have taken or are taking his advice?

"And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them,
And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven." Matt 18:2-4

"It seemed good to me also, having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first, to write unto you in order, most excellent Theophilus, That you might know the certainty of those things, wherein you have been instructed." (Luke 1)

Why when it was written so perfectly did not the people who had access to it fail to understand and obey it perfectly? Why was a Reformation necessary [if it was necessary]? Why did those who left the primary organized church group continue to split and splinter repeatedly from then until now? Who but God alone is able to sort out the confusion? Where and what is Babylon? Certainly not authored by God!
Where should we look for the right answers? To you, or to me, or to some other man?

 

[robert derrick]

Hebrews 1 only makes sense if Jesus is God's only begotten son. Hebrews 1 (WEB):

1) God, having in the past spoken to the fathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways,

Were the prophets God? No.​

2) has at the end of these days spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, through whom also he made the worlds.

Was his son God? Likewise no. God made the universe through His son - he had Jesus perform the creation according to His design, but it was still God's creation. However, after God resurrected Jesus to life again, God has blessed Jesus with an immortal nature and He has given His creation to Jesus as an inheritance, from father to son.​

3) His Son is the radiance of his glory, the very image of his substance, and upholding all things by the word of his power, who, when he had by himself purified us of our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

Jesus now has the same divine nature as God (previously he was not immortal, which is why he was able to die for mankind). He is now sat down at God's right hand (he is not God, the Majesty on high, but he is God's 'right-hand man').​

4) having become so much better than the angels, as he has inherited a more excellent name than they have.

Jesus has now become so much better than the angels (he was better before, for he created them, but he is now much better, having become immortal, and given by God all authority and power over God's creation). Regarding Jesus' more excellent name, Philippians 2:9-11 says "Therefore God also highly exalted him, and gave to him the name which is above every name; that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, those on earth, and those under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.​

5) For to which of the angels did he say at any time, “You are my Son. Today I have become your father?” and again, “I will be to him a Father, and he will be to me a Son?”

Only Jesus is God's only-begotten son. Jesus was begotten as God's firstborn son of his new creation (of which we are also begotten at our baptism) at his baptism, when as recorded in Matthew 3:17, Behold, a voice out of the heavens said, “This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased.”​

6) When he again brings in the firstborn into the world he says, “Let all the angels of God worship him.”

Jesus was the firstborn of all God's creation (Colossians 1:15). It is now right, according to God, for all angels and all men to worship Jesus, as well as worshiping God.​

7) Of the angels he says, “Who makes his angels winds, and his servants a flame of fire.”
8) But of the Son he says, “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever. The scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your Kingdom.
9) You have loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, your God, has anointed you with the oil of gladness above your fellows.”

God refers to Jesus as a god - 'god' means a mighty one. Jesus is truly a mighty one, but God is still his god. God has annointed Jesus with more gladness (exultation, exceeding triumphant joy) than anyone else.​

10) And, “You, Lord, in the beginning, laid the foundation of the earth. The heavens are the works of your hands.

God confirms again that He had Jesus create the universe.​

11) They will perish, but you continue. They all will grow old like a garment does.

The universe will decay over time, but Jesus won't.​

12) You will roll them up like a mantle, and they will be changed; but you are the same. Your years will not fail.”

For Jesus is now immortal, like God is.​

13) But which of the angels has he told at any time, “Sit at my right hand, until I make your enemies the footstool of your feet?”

Only Jesus sits at God's right hand, while God overcomes Jesus' enemies (alhough He may use Jesus to overcome them).​

14) Aren’t they all serving spirits, sent out to do service for the sake of those who will inherit salvation?

1 John 4:9 (WEB):
9) By this God’s love was revealed in us, that God has sent his one and only Son into the world that we might live through him.
10) In this is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son as the atoning sacrifice for our sins.
11) Beloved, if God loved us in this way, we also ought to love one another.
12) No one has seen God at any time. If we love one another, God remains in us, and his love has been perfected in us.
13) By this we know that we remain in him and he in us, because he has given us of his Spirit.
14) We have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son as the Savior of the world.
15) Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God remains in him, and he in God.

Very good, I think I see your main point.

Hebrews 1 is all about rebuking the worshipping of angels (Col 2), which many unitarian Jews of that day and Jehovaites of today do, by making Jesus a created being, and not the Lord God Messiah.

Heb 1 tells us He was not just an angel, nor even just a little better than the angels, as an archangel. Neither was He somewhere in between God and an archangel (there is no Scripture for that). Rather he was so much better than the angels in that He, the Son, was called God by God: "Unto the Son he says, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever."

So that God commands the angels to worship the Son (1:6), because He is God; otherwise God Himself has commanded His angles to worship a created being and not God only. Which of course is certainly contrary to Scripture, but not to Jehovaite mysticism.

So, not only should we not be worshipping an angel called 'Jehovah' by the Jehovaites, but in fact we and all the angels should worship God the Son, Who's throne is forever and forever.

And since the Son's throne is forever and forever at the time of Psalms 45:6, then His throne was forever and forever, before God brought His Firstbegotten in the world. Heb 1 confirms that the God of David was Jesus the Son, the God whom David prophesied would come into the world, the Messiah.

(As Sherlock would say, this is all fairly elementary, as the First Principles of Christ must be, so that babes should easily understand and confirm (Heb 5). But try go telling that to a really grown Jehovaite, who has grown so great and large in his own mind, that he has fallen away from the Vine by his own weightiness...On second thought, don't bother. He'd just bring in some more Apollyonic Greek)

 

[robert derrick]

Something in one denominational or even individual conclusion is clear to them or him. To the one outside of such a circle... it is seen differently in places. Who is correct, those inside or those outside? What is the circle? An individual or a group of Baptists, or Methodists, or Catholics, or Pentecostals, or perhaps some other group?

Scripture is written to be understood as a person is led by the Holy Spirit. The problem is that too many people, I believe, routinely practice quenching the Spirit of God and as a result often take on a mixture. How right can it be when it is the Holy Spirit on the one part and the logic and/or traditions of men on the other part? Sounds a bit like the way the Samaritans did it. What is God's perfect Way?


Certain ones sneak in...? Could it be that there is confusion within the camp as well as without? Who is sneaking in to where? Can anyone get past the Holy Spirit to muddy the waters of God's plan for anyone who really is on the Lord's side?. Who already has that perfectly flawless vision of God's plan and is following it perfectly?


To humble ourselves becoming as little children is the way Jesus told us to proceed, but how many beyond the level of children in the carnal have taken or are taking his advice?

"And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them,
And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven." Matt 18:2-4



Why when it was written so perfectly did not the people who had access to it fail to understand and obey it perfectly? Why was a Reformation necessary [if it was necessary]? Why did those who left the primary organized church group continue to split and splinter repeatedly from then until now? Who but God alone is able to sort out the confusion? Where and what is Babylon? Certainly not authored by God!
Where should we look for the right answers? To you, or to me, or to some other man?

Who is correct? The Word of the Lord. How do we know what is His correct Word? What is written in His Word.

You appear to be preaching an open relativism of ALL Scripture. Any Scripture can mean what anyone thinks based on his or her reasoning, or spiritual enlightenment, and each is valid in 'their own way'.

It may sound good and generous and brotherly; however, it is not true concerning Scripture. When the plain simple meaning of what is exactly written is disputed or changed by intellectualized argument, then the 'discussion' is at an end. The Bible is NOT the relatively, symbolic, and figurative Word of God.

Otherwise Paul would never be able to command that we rebuke, exhort, or even avoid them that are unruly, because they are not holding to the doctrine of Christ. (Titus 1) How can anyone correct another in Scripture, if all Scripture is relative to the 'inspiration' of the individual believer. We would be compelled to seriously consider what anyone thinks, just because they think it, or have managed to come up with some sort of 'careful study' that contradicts what is plainly written.

I.e. according to your freelance mentality, unless I am mistaken by your meaning, you yourself would never be able to state definitively what 'thus saith the Lord' from Scripture, nor rebuke them that are wresting, mishandling, or corrupting the Word of Life. Which is exactly what the apostles did, along with others such as Stephen (who got killed for it) (Acts 6), and Apollos who was mighty in the Scriptures (Acts 18), and we likewise are exhorted to do the same, that the Word of God might be made clear and known distinctly to all hearers.

Ex: And the Word was God, and still is God. Agree? Disagree? Don't know?

 

[robert derrick]

this is what I clearly wrote, "Which means that Jesus Christ IS The ACTIVE Creator of the entire universe!" Not that Jesus was ever created.

I ACTIVELY agree. Good job.

 

[tigger 2]

Heb. 1:8 in the King James Version (AV or KJV) is rendered:

“But unto the son he saith, thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.”

Since “he saith” and the second “is” (found after “righteousness”) in the above verse are not actually found in the original manuscripts and have been added by the KJV translators, they are found in italics in most printings of the KJV.

But more importantly (as a quick glance into any interlinear Greek-English New Testament will show) the first “is” (found after “God”) in the above verse is also not in the original manuscripts but has been added by some modern translators.

Yes, literally the original NT Greek manuscripts read: “Toward but the son the throne of you the god into the age of the age.”

The NAB (St. Joseph ed.,1970) goes on to explain, however, that others have translated this verse as, “Your throne is the throne of God” and refers us to 1 Chron. 29:23 “where Solomon’s throne is referred to as the throne of the LORD [YHWH].”

Now we’re getting closer to the most likely intention of Heb. 1:8. There is good evidence that the proper translation of Heb. 1:8 (as well as Ps. 45:6) should be “your throne is God forever” or “God is your throne forever.”

For one thing, the definite article (“the”) is used in the NT Greek with “God” in this scripture. Not even John (who does, rarely, use theos for Jesus) uses theos with the definite article for anyone except the Only True God - the Father. - See the DEF study.

Also, if we look at some respected trinitarian authorities, we also see a preference for the “God is thy throne” rendering.

Oxford professor and famous trinitarian Bible translator, Dr. James Moffatt, has been described as “probably the greatest biblical scholar of our day.” His respected Bible translation renders Heb. 1:8 as:

“God is thy throne for ever and ever.”

University of Cambridge professor and noted New Testament language scholar, Dr. C. F. D. Moule writes that Heb. 1:8 may be “construed so as to mean Thy throne is God” - p. 32, An Idiom Book of New Testament Greek, Cambridge University Press, 1990 printing.

An American Translation (Smith-Goodspeed), renders it: “God is your throne....”

And The Bible in Living English (Byington) reads: “God is your throne....”

The Message reads: “Your throne is God’s throne….”

NSB - God is your throne

Mace - "God is thy throne….”

Twentieth Century Translation - ‘God is thy throne….’

Dr. Barclay, in his translation of the New Testament, has also rendered Hebrews 1:8 as : “God is your throne for ever and ever.”

The American Standard Version (ASV), the Revised Standard Version (RSV), the New Revised Standard Version (NRSV), and The New English Bible (NEB) have provided alternate readings to the traditional trinitarian rendering of the KJV at Hebrews 1:8. These alternate readings (found in footnotes) agree with Dr. Moffatt’s, Dr. Barclay’s, Smith-Goodspeed’s, Byington’s, and the New World Translation’s renderings of this scripture (“God is your throne”).

To insist on the translation of Heb. 1:8 as a trinity proof is incredibly poor.

 

[amadeus]

Who is correct? The Word of the Lord. How do we know what is His correct Word? What is written in His Word.

"And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.
Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God." Matt 4:6-7

Why is it that Jesus rebuked Satan when Satan quoted the Scriptures? Was it not also written as per what Satan quoted from the 91st psalm?

You appear to be preaching an open relativism of ALL Scripture. Any Scripture can mean what anyone thinks based on his or her reasoning, or spiritual enlightenment, and each is valid in 'their own way'.

No, God's Word is absolute, but God alone is able to understand it and apply it always correctly. When a person quotes the scripture while walking his own carnality, it will not be the Living Word of God. It will like Nehushtan!

It may sound good and generous and brotherly; however, it is not true concerning Scripture. When the plain simple meaning of what is exactly written is disputed or changed by intellectualized argument, then the 'discussion' is at an end. The Bible is NOT the relatively, symbolic, and figurative Word of God.

The Bible unopened or unread presents no Life to anyone. The Life is presented when the contents are quickened to a person. Only the Holy Spirit quickens it in a man. Consider also the atheists well versed in the scriptures to contend against Christians. He may know the Bible without knowing God. His scriptural quotations are dead!

"[God]Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life." II Cor 3:6

Otherwise Paul would never be able to command that we rebuke, exhort, or even avoid them that are unruly, because they are not holding to the doctrine of Christ. (Titus 1) How can anyone correct another in Scripture, if all Scripture is relative to the 'inspiration' of the individual believer. We would be compelled to seriously consider what anyone thinks, just because they think it, or have managed to come up with some sort of 'careful study' that contradicts what is plainly written.

Not from careful study does God's truth come to a man but by the Holy Ghost!

"But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you." John 14:26

A man who has never received the Holy Ghost or is quenching the Spirit of God that he has received so that he is walking in and following his own spirit will speak a dead message even though he is quoting the scriptures.

I.e. according to your freelance mentality, unless I am mistaken by your meaning, you yourself would never be able to state definitively what 'thus saith the Lord' from Scripture, nor rebuke them that are wresting, mishandling, or corrupting the Word of Life. Which is exactly what the apostles did, along with others such as Stephen (who got killed for it) (Acts 6), and Apollos who was mighty in the Scriptures (Acts 18), and we likewise are exhorted to do the same, that the Word of God might be made clear and known distinctly to all hearers.

Ex: And the Word was God, and still is God. Agree? Disagree? Don't know?

If I were always in the Spirit and following the Spirit of God in my actions and my word, I would never err. When I look away from God as when Peter looked away from the face of Jesus I will also begin to sink...and need His help.

Do we all always keep our eyes on the Lord? If we do not will we not stumble and fall in our blindness? We need to always be looking at the Light. We should also want to always be the Light not hiding it under a bushel or burying it in the earth.

 

[ByGraceThroughFaith]

Heb. 1:8 in the King James Version (AV or KJV) is rendered:

“But unto the son he saith, thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.”

Since “he saith” and the second “is” (found after “righteousness”) in the above verse are not actually found in the original manuscripts and have been added by the KJV translators, they are found in italics in most printings of the KJV.

But more importantly (as a quick glance into any interlinear Greek-English New Testament will show) the first “is” (found after “God”) in the above verse is also not in the original manuscripts but has been added by some modern translators.

Yes, literally the original NT Greek manuscripts read: “Toward but the son the throne of you the god into the age of the age.”

The NAB (St. Joseph ed.,1970) goes on to explain, however, that others have translated this verse as, “Your throne is the throne of God” and refers us to 1 Chron. 29:23 “where Solomon’s throne is referred to as the throne of the LORD [YHWH].”

Now we’re getting closer to the most likely intention of Heb. 1:8. There is good evidence that the proper translation of Heb. 1:8 (as well as Ps. 45:6) should be “your throne is God forever” or “God is your throne forever.”

For one thing, the definite article (“the”) is used in the NT Greek with “God” in this scripture. Not even John (who does, rarely, use theos for Jesus) uses theos with the definite article for anyone except the Only True God - the Father. - See the DEF study.

Also, if we look at some respected trinitarian authorities, we also see a preference for the “God is thy throne” rendering.

Oxford professor and famous trinitarian Bible translator, Dr. James Moffatt, has been described as “probably the greatest biblical scholar of our day.” His respected Bible translation renders Heb. 1:8 as:

“God is thy throne for ever and ever.”

University of Cambridge professor and noted New Testament language scholar, Dr. C. F. D. Moule writes that Heb. 1:8 may be “construed so as to mean Thy throne is God” - p. 32, An Idiom Book of New Testament Greek, Cambridge University Press, 1990 printing.

An American Translation (Smith-Goodspeed), renders it: “God is your throne....”

And The Bible in Living English (Byington) reads: “God is your throne....”

The Message reads: “Your throne is God’s throne….”

NSB - God is your throne

Mace - "God is thy throne….”

Twentieth Century Translation - ‘God is thy throne….’

Dr. Barclay, in his translation of the New Testament, has also rendered Hebrews 1:8 as : “God is your throne for ever and ever.”

The American Standard Version (ASV), the Revised Standard Version (RSV), the New Revised Standard Version (NRSV), and The New English Bible (NEB) have provided alternate readings to the traditional trinitarian rendering of the KJV at Hebrews 1:8. These alternate readings (found in footnotes) agree with Dr. Moffatt’s, Dr. Barclay’s, Smith-Goodspeed’s, Byington’s, and the New World Translation’s renderings of this scripture (“God is your throne”).

To insist on the translation of Heb. 1:8 as a trinity proof is incredibly poor.

You understand Hebrew or Greek

 

[Wrangler]

Old and New Testament Parallels of God the Father and God the Son

You are reading into the parallels. Do you suppose every time someone in the Bible said "I am" it means they are God?

 

[robert derrick]

Heb. 1:8 in the King James Version (AV or KJV) is rendered:

“But unto the son he saith, thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.”

Since “he saith” and the second “is” (found after “righteousness”) in the above verse are not actually found in the original manuscripts and have been added by the KJV translators, they are found in italics in most printings of the KJV.

But more importantly (as a quick glance into any interlinear Greek-English New Testament will show) the first “is” (found after “God”) in the above verse is also not in the original manuscripts but has been added by some modern translators.

Yes, literally the original NT Greek manuscripts read: “Toward but the son the throne of you the god into the age of the age.”

The NAB (St. Joseph ed.,1970) goes on to explain, however, that others have translated this verse as, “Your throne is the throne of God” and refers us to 1 Chron. 29:23 “where Solomon’s throne is referred to as the throne of the LORD [YHWH].”

Now we’re getting closer to the most likely intention of Heb. 1:8. There is good evidence that the proper translation of Heb. 1:8 (as well as Ps. 45:6) should be “your throne is God forever” or “God is your throne forever.”

For one thing, the definite article (“the”) is used in the NT Greek with “God” in this scripture. Not even John (who does, rarely, use theos for Jesus) uses theos with the definite article for anyone except the Only True God - the Father. - See the DEF study.

Also, if we look at some respected trinitarian authorities, we also see a preference for the “God is thy throne” rendering.

Oxford professor and famous trinitarian Bible translator, Dr. James Moffatt, has been described as “probably the greatest biblical scholar of our day.” His respected Bible translation renders Heb. 1:8 as:

“God is thy throne for ever and ever.”

University of Cambridge professor and noted New Testament language scholar, Dr. C. F. D. Moule writes that Heb. 1:8 may be “construed so as to mean Thy throne is God” - p. 32, An Idiom Book of New Testament Greek, Cambridge University Press, 1990 printing.

An American Translation (Smith-Goodspeed), renders it: “God is your throne....”

And The Bible in Living English (Byington) reads: “God is your throne....”

The Message reads: “Your throne is God’s throne….”

NSB - God is your throne

Mace - "God is thy throne….”

Twentieth Century Translation - ‘God is thy throne….’

Dr. Barclay, in his translation of the New Testament, has also rendered Hebrews 1:8 as : “God is your throne for ever and ever.”

The American Standard Version (ASV), the Revised Standard Version (RSV), the New Revised Standard Version (NRSV), and The New English Bible (NEB) have provided alternate readings to the traditional trinitarian rendering of the KJV at Hebrews 1:8. These alternate readings (found in footnotes) agree with Dr. Moffatt’s, Dr. Barclay’s, Smith-Goodspeed’s, Byington’s, and the New World Translation’s renderings of this scripture (“God is your throne”).

To insist on the translation of Heb. 1:8 as a trinity proof is incredibly poor.

Man! I missed again!! I can't just catch a break here!! Arghhhh! My incredibly poor soul!!!

I maybe just need to go ahead and admit that the Bible I have, and any other Bible you Jehovinians don't agree with, is just junk. I mean, being filled with so many verses, that really just don't really exist at all!!! Who woulda thunk it??!!

Ok, so while I bone up on my greekness, do you Jehovaites have like an officially approved Jehovaite Bible? Hey, a simple manuscript on how to properly determine which Scriptures are only figurative, or should be jettisoned altogether as illigit??

Because then I TOO, after much careful study and learning of the system, I too could become a proper Jehovaite! and when I see some slacker quoting some Scripture that either doesn't exist or is being to literal, then I MYSELF will be able to refute them and learn them and proselytize them into the true kingdom of Jehovaiternity!!

I mean, you're beginning to wear me down here! with all your same endlessly forceful refutes on how Scripture just isn't what it appears to be!! It may just come to the point, where it is more convenient to just to be rid of this whole worshipping of Jesus stuff!

Well, if I actually do flip, or flip out, then I will be coming to you for that J-approved 'Bible' or that J-approved 'manuscript', and learn properly how to worship the uncreated Jehovah, rather than the created Jesus...

Nah. Forget it. Just kidding. Worshipping the Lord Jesus is best. You guys go on doing whatever it is you do with the title "Jehovah' in the secrecy of your own closets, or the privacy of your toilets. Ok, ok. A little too far there. The privacy of your 'bathrooms'.

 

[Wrangler]

And so you are saying that Jesus being the beginning, does not mean that Jesus began in the beginning

Isaiah also said he was in the beginning and these other claims of deity. Does not make him God, right? This is because this is what prophets, including Jesus, do; they speak the words of God. Does not make them God.

Who has performed and done this,
calling the generations from the beginning?
I, the Lord, the first,
and with the last; I am he.
Isaiah 41:4

so that you may know and believe me
and understand that I am he.
Before me no god was formed,
nor will there be one after me.
Isaiah 43:10

 

[robert derrick]

"And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.
Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God." Matt 4:6-7

Why is it that Jesus rebuked Satan when Satan quoted the Scriptures? Was it not also written as per what Satan quoted from the 91st psalm?


No, God's Word is absolute, but God alone is able to understand it and apply it always correctly. When a person quotes the scripture while walking his own carnality, it will not be the Living Word of God. It will like Nehushtan!


The Bible unopened or unread presents no Life to anyone. The Life is presented when the contents are quickened to a person. Only the Holy Spirit quickens it in a man. Consider also the atheists well versed in the scriptures to contend against Christians. He may know the Bible without knowing God. His scriptural quotations are dead!

"[God]Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life." II Cor 3:6


Not from careful study does God's truth come to a man but by the Holy Ghost!

"But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you." John 14:26

A man who has never received the Holy Ghost or is quenching the Spirit of God that he has received so that he is walking in and following his own spirit will speak a dead message even though he is quoting the scriptures.


If I were always in the Spirit and following the Spirit of God in my actions and my word, I would never err. When I look away from God as when Peter looked away from the face of Jesus I will also begin to sink...and need His help.

Do we all always keep our eyes on the Lord? If we do not will we not stumble and fall in our blindness? We need to always be looking at the Light. We should also want to always be the Light not hiding it under a bushel or burying it in the earth.

Ok, fair enough. No one is perfect on earth, and no one is perfect in understanding doctrine of Christ by Scripture, and only by the mind of the Spirit may we know the truth thereof and be made truly free.

So, how about this. If we are indeed being led by the Spirit, then we will indeed be understanding God's Word even as He wrote it. So that if His Scriptures conflict with what we decree or say or teach, then we are being carnally minded and in error.

Which further means, we are well able to demonstrate by Scripture such carnal error occurring. I.e. we can do what Paul commanded and rebuke them sharply by Scripture that they may be sound in the faith, even as others may do so with ourselves when we err (Titus 1).

I.e. there are people and sects and groups called Christian who are just plain wrong according to the Scriptures.

'God alone is able to understand it and apply it always correctly...'

"having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first." (Luke 1)

'Not from careful study does God's truth come to a man but by the Holy Ghost!'

"Study to shew thyself approved to God" (2 Tim 2)

I'm thinking maybe we need to be just a little bit less on the spiritual side of understanding, and a little more relying on the study side of faith. That way, we know what the Bible plainly says, and we know when someone is plainly wrong. And we don't have to bend over backwards to accommodate everyone's let pet theories about God and His Word, even if it does sound and look pleasing to others. (Gal 1:10)

I for one dearly love when someone corrects me soundly by Scriptural proofs with the proper sense thereof (Nehem 8). I just don't suffer childish fools that could really care less about what the Bible actually says as written, and more about what they proudly think they can convince others the Bible says though not written nor written that way.

You know, like the Jehovaites.

 

[Wrangler]

If we are indeed being led by the Spirit, then we will indeed be understanding God's Word even as He wrote it.

Hebrews 4:12 come to mind. That we might be guided by the Spirit to understand God's word differently and that explains, in part, the proliferation of denominations.

There is a quote from St Augustine on this I'll dig up later when I have time.

 

[ByGraceThroughFaith]

Heb. 1:8 in the King James Version (AV or KJV) is rendered:

“But unto the son he saith, thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.”

Since “he saith” and the second “is” (found after “righteousness”) in the above verse are not actually found in the original manuscripts and have been added by the KJV translators, they are found in italics in most printings of the KJV.

But more importantly (as a quick glance into any interlinear Greek-English New Testament will show) the first “is” (found after “God”) in the above verse is also not in the original manuscripts but has been added by some modern translators.

Yes, literally the original NT Greek manuscripts read: “Toward but the son the throne of you the god into the age of the age.”

The NAB (St. Joseph ed.,1970) goes on to explain, however, that others have translated this verse as, “Your throne is the throne of God” and refers us to 1 Chron. 29:23 “where Solomon’s throne is referred to as the throne of the LORD [YHWH].”

Now we’re getting closer to the most likely intention of Heb. 1:8. There is good evidence that the proper translation of Heb. 1:8 (as well as Ps. 45:6) should be “your throne is God forever” or “God is your throne forever.”

For one thing, the definite article (“the”) is used in the NT Greek with “God” in this scripture. Not even John (who does, rarely, use theos for Jesus) uses theos with the definite article for anyone except the Only True God - the Father. - See the DEF study.

Also, if we look at some respected trinitarian authorities, we also see a preference for the “God is thy throne” rendering.

Oxford professor and famous trinitarian Bible translator, Dr. James Moffatt, has been described as “probably the greatest biblical scholar of our day.” His respected Bible translation renders Heb. 1:8 as:

“God is thy throne for ever and ever.”

University of Cambridge professor and noted New Testament language scholar, Dr. C. F. D. Moule writes that Heb. 1:8 may be “construed so as to mean Thy throne is God” - p. 32, An Idiom Book of New Testament Greek, Cambridge University Press, 1990 printing.

An American Translation (Smith-Goodspeed), renders it: “God is your throne....”

And The Bible in Living English (Byington) reads: “God is your throne....”

The Message reads: “Your throne is God’s throne….”

NSB - God is your throne

Mace - "God is thy throne….”

Twentieth Century Translation - ‘God is thy throne….’

Dr. Barclay, in his translation of the New Testament, has also rendered Hebrews 1:8 as : “God is your throne for ever and ever.”

The American Standard Version (ASV), the Revised Standard Version (RSV), the New Revised Standard Version (NRSV), and The New English Bible (NEB) have provided alternate readings to the traditional trinitarian rendering of the KJV at Hebrews 1:8. These alternate readings (found in footnotes) agree with Dr. Moffatt’s, Dr. Barclay’s, Smith-Goodspeed’s, Byington’s, and the New World Translation’s renderings of this scripture (“God is your throne”).

To insist on the translation of Heb. 1:8 as a trinity proof is incredibly poor.

The Greek here is: "προς δε τον υιον ο θρονος σου ο θεος εις τον αιωνα του αιωνος", where "ο θεος", is the nominative for the vocative, in address, which is the Father addressing Jesus Christ: "Your Throne O God...".

This reading is from the Emphatic Diaglott, published by the Jehovahs Wintesses:



Notice the English under the Greek: "Concerning but the son; The throne of thee the God"; And the in right hand: "But to the Son, Thy THRONE, O GOD". Clear Deity of Jesus Christ.

In the Greek Interlinear also published by the Watchtower:



Note the literal English from the Greek: "toward but the Son, The throne of you the God", which is addressed directly to Jesus as GOD!

Then there is the New Testament by Dr Noyes, who was a Unitarian, who denied that Jesus Christ is GOD:



"but of the Son: 'Thy throne, O God". Clear testimony to the Deity of Jesus Christ!

 

[robert derrick]

"Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he." (Is 41)

I was wondering why the Jehovite masters of Scriptural expulsion did so with Rev 1:11, and here it is!

They couldn't have Jesus in Rev 1 directly speaking of Himself as Jehovah in Isaiah 41!! Clear now. But then, why leave Rev 22:13, where Jesus repeats Himself? That's been a bit of a puzzle too. I mean, are they like allotted only so many expulsions of Scripture a day? Or in a given week? Maybe I'll need to realy try and get hold of the J-Handbook, where the rules of Scripture expulsion and figurativity are clearly defined.

"...that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour." (Is 43)

So, I am He is I am the Lord that is the first with the last, that is the first and the last: The Lord Jesus in Rev 1. No wait, that's been expulsed, I meant in Rev 22. There, that's better. (I have got to try and keep up with Jehovinian expulsions of Scripture)

 

[Cooper]

You are reading into the parallels. Do you suppose every time someone in the Bible said "I am" it means they are God?

Are you having a laugh?
.

 

[Wrangler]

Are you having a laugh?
.

Yes because the man is God thesis is not in Scripture. The reliance on duality is clear when one considers Jesus said he was sent. Who has authority to send God on a mission?

The answer is laughable as it distorts language, such as a bring sends themselves on a mission.