Neither faith or obedience is a "fruit of the Spirit".
propitiation by His blood, through faith
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There is the issue of what we do with pregnant rodents and roaches...what if we as unregenerate creatures are as detestable to God as they are to us? Can we blame God if He is repulsed by those who are sinful in Adam...and sets a trap that will kill the mother of the seed that might come forth, thus preventing the seed from ever coming forth, in order to prevent an infestation?
We should be thankful that the Lord has provided a way of salvation for us at all! This is the proof that He is indeed love to the highest degree...for He Himself died in order to provide salvation for people who were in His estimation rodents and roaches...Romans 5:8.
Hmm...We learn the obedience of faith by the things we suffer, just as it says Jesus did.
So faith is a learned obedience.
I've always thought faith is like a muscle that only grows larger and stronger if resistance or pressure is put against the muscle. No resistance leads to atrophy.
And we know that there is nothing more precious to us than our faith, which will come out as pure gold tried many times in fire. In fact, when we see it has grown and we are in the peace that brings, we come to agree with the testing of our faith, even in miseries.
You see some victories over the world and yourself and the devils mutterings and you just...don't complain as much at the testing of your faith. You want to grow more and more in that trust.
So faith is a learned obedience from the things we suffer. But...It is also a small seed that is a gift...
We are in a race of trust/ faith as the apostle said. We gain endurance from the running and don't stumble in our trust as often.
I just wAnt to run my face of trust. I want to trust outrageously.
So faith is a learned obedience.
I've always thought faith is like a muscle that only grows larger and stronger if resistance or pressure is put against the muscle. No resistance leads to atrophy.
And we know that there is nothing more precious to us than our faith, which will come out as pure gold tried many times in fire. In fact, when we see it has grown and we are in the peace that brings, we come to agree with the testing of our faith, even in miseries.
You see some victories over the world and yourself and the devils mutterings and you just...don't complain as much at the testing of your faith. You want to grow more and more in that trust.
So faith is a learned obedience from the things we suffer. But...It is also a small seed that is a gift...
We are in a race of trust/ faith as the apostle said. We gain endurance from the running and don't stumble in our trust as often.
I just wAnt to run my face of trust. I want to trust outrageously.
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You have it wrong. According to scriptures they are given the Holy Spirit when they place their belief, faith, trust, confidence in Jesus' work on the cross.
The children of God have the Holy Spirit and your saying they do not have Him is your lie.
Oh yes, the Christian things. You are saying a person is not a Christian unless they are doing Christian things (works). I bet you use what James said to hit everyone with works even though his writings were to the Jews under the law. The religious use it to get everyone under the Jewish law.
I am saying that anyone who places their belief, faith, trust, confidence in what God (Jesus) did for us is a child of God. The work of a person's salvation was completed on the cross. What is necessary under grace is for a person believes it.
But the religious place their belief, faith, trust and confidence in what they do, not what god has done for them.
I include the words belief, faith, trust and confidence because all of theses words describe each other and mean the same thing.
If we are seen by God as detestable rodents or roaches, why did He love us so much? "For God so loved the world..."God HATES sin, not His human creation, made in His image...but the sin in His creation. I'm not sure I am following exactly what you are saying about "God setting a trap" I know He has His plans and nothing will thwart them. And if a Christian is not thankful to the extreme that the Lord provided a way of salvation, wouldn't you say there is something amiss in their walk?
In Gods estimation, His creation as per Himself was "very good". Sin entered...
Sorry, I was just thinking about this because the house I am living in right now has both roaches and rodents...and I consider that it is not an evil thing from my perspective that I would do what it takes to exterminate them...because if we don't there will be an infestation of roaches and rodents in my house.
I am saying that if we do things like this for our human comfort, who are we to judge and blame the Lord for "exterminating" ungodly people, who are detestable to Him in that they will not be separated from their sin through His shed blood?
For I consider that God hates the sin and loves the sinner....but that He also hates the sinner inasmuch as the sinner will not be separated from his sin(s). It is not sinners that God is going to cast into the lake of fire per se, but sin itself...and if anyone is not redeemed from their sins; so that they and sin are one....well, when sin is cast into the lake of fire, they will be also...and I think that all of creation cries out for something like this to happen. Since sin is the cause of all suffering, there must come a day when all good is separated from all evil...so if one chooses to be evil, they will be in the presence of evil for all of eternity...and perhaps the only good they will experience might be the fire of God's justice/judgment on their own sin. Which, I am sure, they will interpret as evil, since they will be suffering even more (although perhaps less) because of the Lord's good judgment. Or, maybe it will be enough that there is no good where they will be in eternity, and the Lord's good judgment is simply to put them in that place with every other evil creature in existence.
We need this to happen so that heaven can truly be heavenly...because without the separation of good and evil the saints will always be in the presence of evil to a certain degree: and heaven is a place where no evil exists...there, there is only good. This is why heaven will be heaven to us...because all evil will be cast out.
In the meantime, God allows good and evil to coexist...and offers to those who are evil, redemption, because He loves them and does not want to see them perish...as soon as they have ultimately rejected Him, their only fate is to be rejected and banished to the place where only evil exists. But if anyone receives Him, they are headed for the place where there is only good; and in the meantime they/we labour for the souls that are evil in an attempt to redeem them so that they will not have to go to such a fate as where they are headed. Because God is love.
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Nancy, I believe we touched base on this a few months ago. The topic of "free will" is misunderstood. Mankind is clearly enslaved to sin and that is our very nature. Man has a will, but it is enslaved, which means it is not free. We can make choices; no one is a robot but, in our free agency we would never seek/desire God if it was not for the Holy Spirit first convicting us. If the Holy Spirit did not convict the human heart there would be no Believers in the world.
When it comes to infants / the mentally incapable I believe it is good to look at Jeremiah 19:4. The people were offering their children to idols and God said, "...they have filled this place with the blood of the innocent". I do believe 100% that we are born with a sin nature, all of us are fallen through Adam. The sin nature is there but the fruit of sin is not, infants have not committed any sin even though the nature is in them, they don't have the means to produce that fruit of evil yet. So no, I do not believe God would damn them but I do believe everyone born does have a corrupted, evil nature through the Fall - there are no innocent people. Anyone that goes to Heaven is simply there by the saving grace of God (not their own works/merit)
Why'd you have to go and make me feel all convicted?
lol!
I still can't let those pests create an infestation in my house...
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I do believe we are born into the Adamic sin nature. I believe we need to be convicted of our sin through the Holy Spirit first and foremost. John 16:8 "And when he comes, he will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment..."
We can harden our hearts or not. It is a choice as far as I am concerned. It is a hard thing to even understand Gods love for me if I allow the ""old man" to haunt me. I will run this race to the end, God willing and, I'm pretty sure He is ;)
Oh gosh, I will pray for their eradication!
I had to put up drywall under my sink as there were mice getting in there last winter, and I have 3 schnauzers!!! Lol.
Helen
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What you are presenting is a scheme of salvation based on acting like a Christian in order to become one. = salvation by hypocrisy. You must already be saved by grace before you can genuinely produce the fruits thereof.
“But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,” (Galatians 5:22)
“But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,” (Galatians 5:22)