Protestant Apostasy Pending?

[ScottA]

Your wife may be interested in your attitude regards the 7th commandment. Are you faithful to obeying the 7th commandment , and if so, why? Because its the law, or because you love your wife? Now think about that as you contemplate the 4th commandment.

You seemed to have missed a major event in history.

The seventh day when God entered His rest was a foreshadowing of the resurrection and ascension of Jesus Christ which did occur on the first day, and is the fulfillment of mankind joining Him: "we also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead." As it is written: "For we who have believed do enter that rest, as He has said: “So I swore in My wrath, ‘They shall not enter My rest,’” although the works were finished from the foundation of the world."

 

[bbyrd009]

One is by law, the other by love...I do because I love, I don't do to earn love.

I see the above post....again...Once you find a favourite you sure do milk it for all you can get , don't you?

ah, that's a pretty old post lol, dunno

but i notice a really popular belief seems to be that since Christ fulfilled the law a believer does not even have to obey it? Of course these same ppl can be made to contradict themselves quite easily, so imo the lesson here might be to seek any personal statements you might make for obvious contradictions

BTW @bbyrd009 I'm glad you dug up some of these old threads again...I have had a good read today.

i guess i put something referring to Constantine in here, bc the thread already contained it? it was kind of on the fly tbh

 

[Helen]

but i notice a really popular belief seems to be that since Christ fulfilled the law a believer does not even have to obey it?
<snip>

Depends on what you mean here? Are you meaning the ten commandments?
Or do you mean all the other stuff, like circumcision, Sabbath worship, and those kind of laws?

If you mean the Ten...then that is covered in 1 Cor 13 .... "if I have not love it is all a tinkling symbol ..." And Jesus Great Commandment...
34 "A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another."
If we love we do fulfil all ten...because we love.....don't you think?

 

[Helen]

...our dog at first obeyed as a pup because of commands he learned..and a little fear of his owner. Now in maturity he obeys it not by command but by his slobbering total devotion.

 

[bbyrd009]

Depends on what you mean here? Are you meaning the ten commandments?
Or do you mean all the other stuff, like circumcision, Sabbath worship, and those kind of laws?

oh my, whatever will we do, it's all just sooo confusing, lol

 

[Helen]

oh my, whatever will we do, it's all just sooo confusing, lol

Isn't that the time that we haul off and start our own new denomination.

 

[bbyrd009]

If you mean the Ten...then that is covered in 1 Cor 13 .... "if I have not love it is all a tinkling symbol ..." And Jesus Great Commandment...
34 "A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another."
If we love we do fulfil all ten...because we love.....don't you think?

guess it depends what you mean there, too.

We got laws that we can get arrested for, and other laws that we can't.
Whatever you do, do it from conviction, i guess is what matters.

 

[bbyrd009]

Isn't that the time that we haul off and start our own new denomination.

prolly the best step on the way to losing denominations entirely, i guess

 

[Helen]

prolly the best step on the way to losing denominations entirely, i guess

The best thing that could happen...but sadly I was once taught..and through the experience of those underground in the communist countries...the only thing that unites the denominations is persecution...then everyone is a happy band of brothers. ( well, not so 'happy' but brothers none the less)

 

[bbyrd009]

"The story of the man named Legion has rightly puzzled readers for centuries. A little background info might lift the clouds somewhat:

The designation legion as a Roman military unit came about during the Marian reforms of 107 BC. A legion would contain around 4,500 to 5,500 legionaries (professional soldiers who were Roman citizens), divided into cohorts (480 legionaries) and cohorts consisted of centuries (80 legionaries). But the army at large consisted mainly of auxiliary cohorts (which in turn consisted of non-Roman citizens), and every Roman legion always came with a hardy helping of foreign cohorts.

By stating that his name is Legion, the demoniac is being quite specific. In modern English we like to use the word legion to indicate a myriad, but that's not what the word legion meant to the people of the first century AD (see etymology below). Back in the day, the word legion was a Roman-specific term, much like "SS" was to the Nazis or "Stasi" was to East Germany. By using the word legion (in stead of calling himself, say, Ten Cohorts) the demoniac makes a point to indicate that his demonic infection consists of "Roman citizens".

The Battle of Beth-horon

By the time the gospels began to circulate, the word legion had another specific meaning. In 66 AD, Jewish rebels destroyed Julius Caesar's legendary Legion XII Fulminata at the battle of Beth-horon (means House of Caverns..."
The amazing name Legion: meaning and etymology

 

[bbyrd009]

"...Secondly, the demoniac is not saying the same thing twice when he says, "Legion, because we are many," but gives additional information. There are quite a few ways to indicate a large number in Greek, and the demoniac uses the very common word πολυς (polus), meaning many.

But if he had specifically wanted to emphasize the hugeness of his demonic infection, he may have rather used words like μυριας (murias), meaning myriad or huge multitude, or πληθος (plethos), meaning crowd, or perhaps even αναριθμητος (anarithmetos), meaning innumerable. In stead he uses πολυς (polus), and perhaps not to indicate the huge quantity of demons inside him, but something a touch more sinister.

Roman legions were frequently named after the country they were stationed in or near (Legio I Germanica, Legio IV Macedonica, Legio IX Hispana, and so on). The word polus was also used to indicate the common people; the grey masses or hoi polloi (2 Corinthians 8:15).

The man named Legion is basically saying that he's everybody; his demonic infection consists of the general populace of the Roman Empire. He is Israel and his demonic infection is the Roman occupation..." ibid

hmm, legion comes from logos, who knew

 

[bbyrd009]

"...meaning to speak well of or to bring about lots of good things or lavish welfare across the whole spectrum of existence. Although this verb is the Septuagint's equivalent of the Hebrew verb ברך (barak), meaning to bless (ACTS 3:25), the usage of this English word is really rather unfortunate.

To "bless" comes from the ancient sacrificial term "blodison" meaning "to make bloody" (of an altar). Our Greek verb has nothing to do with some ritual or magic chants (or aural energies radiating from one's hands and such) and really only means to speak well of. It's a catch-all verb that covers expressing gratitude, praising, complimenting, supporting; all that (LUKE 1:64, 24:53, MARK 10:16).

But our verb obviously means more than simply saying lofty words. Being "spoken well of" comes with tangible effects that entail bringing about a good thing (a good logos) for somebody by means of, say, a nice gift, of by changing someone's self-destructive behavior (ACTS 3:26).

It's of course wonderful when God speaks well of us (MATTHEW 25:34); the whole of creation is due to God speaking (Deuteronomy 8:3, MATTHEW 4:4) so good things that happen to people are due to good things said by God (JOHN 12:13, ACTS 3:26, EPHESIANS 1:3). Obviously, speaking well of something like food is the same as pronouncing gratitude for it.

When Jesus looked at the heavens and "spoke well" of the bread He was about to distribute (MATTHEW 14:19), He basically pronounced His gratitude over it. In other words, He wasn't "blessing" the food (whatever that might be perceived to mean), but rather He "expressed His thanks" for it." @Webers_Home
ibid
"...In 1 CORINTHIANS 14:16, Paul equals our verb with the noun ευχαριστια (eucharistia), which means "thanks-giving". And in 1 CORINTHIANS 10:16 he mentions the "lavish welfare we speak well of" (rather than "blessing we bless", whatever that may mean). This verb is used 43 times, SEE FULL CONCORDANCE, and from it in turn come..."

"The adjective λογιος (logios), meaning learned or educated (ACTS 18:24 only). From this word derives:

• The noun λογιον (logion), which is something that a logios would produce; a word of wisdom, oracle or even sentence or declaration. This word is only used for God's stipulations, which would logically mean that God could be considered a logios. This word occurs 4 times; SEE FULL CONCORDANCE."

 

[amadeus]

The best thing that could happen...but sadly I was once taught..and through the experience of those underground in the communist countries...the only thing that unites the denominations is persecution...then everyone is a happy band of brothers. ( well, not so 'happy' but brothers none the less)

Can a person be unhappy and still have joy?

 

[amadeus]

guess it depends what you mean there, too.

We got laws that we can get arrested for, and other laws that we can't.
Whatever you do, do it from conviction, i guess is what matters.

Convictions, yes, from the right place. Do not some people get convicted by or for the wrong things?

 

[amadeus]

Isn't that the time that we haul off and start our own new denomination.

You mean we have not done so yet? To hear some talk on here, it would certainly seem so.

 

[amadeus]

The man named Legion is basically saying that he's everybody; his demonic infection consists of the general populace of the Roman Empire. He is Israel and his demonic infection is the Roman occupation..." ibid

hmm, legion comes from logos, who knew

Perhaps then he effectively had all of the devil(s) in him. Are there any around today similarly afflicted? What are they missing? Or what do they have?

 

[bbyrd009]

Are there any around today similarly afflicted?

ha, are there any around who are not, might be a better Q

 

[amadeus]

ha, are there any around who are not, might be a better Q

Ah yes, all of us then with the exception of anyone who has completely overcome sin. Are there any? I suspect that there are, but I, not yet being among them, and many others likely would not know them if we were to see them. Are our eyes improving?

 

[brakelite]

You seemed to have missed a major event in history.

The seventh day when God entered His rest was a foreshadowing of the resurrection and ascension of Jesus Christ which did occur on the first day, and is the fulfillment of mankind joining Him: "we also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead." As it is written: "For we who have believed do enter that rest, as He has said: “So I swore in My wrath, ‘They shall not enter My rest,’” although the works were finished from the foundation of the world."

Yes, that is a common understanding of why the Sabbath Day is no longer to be kept holy as God commanded. And it all sounds so spiritual. Trouble is, although you have quoted a couple of scriptures, it is only by your own philosophical reasoning that links them with the commandment. Nowhere in scripture does it actually say that observance of the day itself, which God made holy and sanctified, and therefore is still holy and sanctified, has been changed. That is the problem that people have that would rather set aside the 4th commandment. What God makes holy, as far as He is concerned, stays holy. It is people, men and women, sinners, that profane holy things. That is why God tells us to "remember to keep the Sabbath Day holy." Regardless of the resurrection....regardless of what happened on the 1st day or any other day...regardless of the gospel....regardless of whether we are Jew, Gentile, black or green...the 7th day is a holy day which God asks us to maintain in that state of holiness. I do not believe that it would be too far a stretch to say that ignoring the day entirely and doing whatever on that day, is maintaining the sanctity of the day.
To convince me to become anything other than a Sabbatarian (and BTW let me know when everyone agrees on why the Sabbath is no longer observable and what replaces it) you need to convince me that God Himself has removed the sanctity and holiness from the 7th day. The original Sabbath was not established as a shadow of anything...it was a celebration of creation...and in NT times can be a celebration of recreation...a real time expression of that 'rest in Christ' that you spoke of above. But nothing in all of that suggests the removal of God's blessing from the 7th day.

 

[ScottA]

Yes, that is a common understanding of why the Sabbath Day is no longer to be kept holy as God commanded. And it all sounds so spiritual. Trouble is, although you have quoted a couple of scriptures, it is only by your own philosophical reasoning that links them with the commandment. Nowhere in scripture does it actually say that observance of the day itself, which God made holy and sanctified, and therefore is still holy and sanctified, has been changed. That is the problem that people have that would rather set aside the 4th commandment. What God makes holy, as far as He is concerned, stays holy. It is people, men and women, sinners, that profane holy things. That is why God tells us to "remember to keep the Sabbath Day holy." Regardless of the resurrection....regardless of what happened on the 1st day or any other day...regardless of the gospel....regardless of whether we are Jew, Gentile, black or green...the 7th day is a holy day which God asks us to maintain in that state of holiness. I do not believe that it would be too far a stretch to say that ignoring the day entirely and doing whatever on that day, is maintaining the sanctity of the day.
To convince me to become anything other than a Sabbatarian (and BTW let me know when everyone agrees on why the Sabbath is no longer observable and what replaces it) you need to convince me that God Himself has removed the sanctity and holiness from the 7th day. The original Sabbath was not established as a shadow of anything...it was a celebration of creation...and in NT times can be a celebration of recreation...a real time expression of that 'rest in Christ' that you spoke of above. But nothing in all of that suggests the removal of God's blessing from the 7th day.

You don't understand.

I said that you missed a major event in history...because you apparently missed the very thing you are now saying cannot be established, that observing the Sabbath is finished. And you mention Christ... How is it that you do not know that He [was] "the End" of those who were given the Old covenant, "the End" of "the house of Israel", the End of that "fold"?

Because Jesus Christ is indeed "the End", we now have long since entered into that "other fold" which He "must also bring" - of those who were not given the Old Covenant to keep. If you then deny that He was "the End", you may as well deny that He was the Christ - for it was He Himself who said "I am the Beginning and the End?" But if you say He is the Christ - do not then betray Him and say that He is not also "the End": the End of the Old Covenant, and the Beginning of the New Covenant. As it is written: "The last shall be first, and the first last."

These things are true.