Prove the Trinity wrong challenge.

[Dave L]

I'm not sure that there is any scripture that declares that if you deny the Trinity you are outside of the body of Christ. The Deity of Christ, yes (John 8:24). The Trinity, no.

btw, I personally do believe in the Trinity; but I do not exclude from salvation, for example, the Oneness Pentecostals. For they have a pretty solid claim to salvation, which is Acts of the Apostles 2:38-39.

How do you recognize the true God. By rejecting the trinity? the only doctrine unique to Christianity? Or by agreeing with Islam, Judaism, virtually every cult on the face of the earth?

 

[brakelite]

That's the problem here. People have the Holy Spirit that guides them into all truth. But they don't trust God to show them the truth in books written by the teachers of the church. You cannot know the truth unless exposed to it. But somehow books are bad because people (full of the Holy Spirit) wrote them.

But you present a creed written by so called wise men of the early church era, and demand we all surrendero our wills to their teaching (and in history many thousands lost their lives of they didn't) but when I present a more modern perspective from a church man it becomes merely an opinion? What are you judging this opinion by? Are you comparing it with your creed, or with scripture? You ask us to compare the creed with scripture, what is so unscriptural about the piece I quoted?

 

[brakelite]

Because you have an idol and not the true God, apart from the scripture quoted in the "books" that God uses to reveal himself to us. Plus you cause division and separate yourself from the Church apart from this understanding.

I worship the Father and His Son. I do so through the power and the inspiration of the Spirit of Christ abiding in me. Where is the idol?

 

[Dave L]

But you present a creed written by so called wise men of the early church era, and demand we all surrendero our wills to their teaching (and in history many thousands lost their lives of they didn't) but when I present a more modern perspective from a church man it becomes merely an opinion? What are you judging this opinion by? Are you comparing it with your creed, or with scripture? You ask us to compare the creed with scripture, what is so unscriptural about the piece I quoted?

Only if it is true. Why divide yourself off agreeing with Islam, Judaism, cults and sects who also reject the trinity, and not join the church united in truth?

 

[Dave L]

I worship the Father and His Son. I do so through the power and the inspiration of the Spirit of Christ abiding in me. Where is the idol?

You agree with historic Christendom if you believe God is one Spirit. And the Father is God. The Son is God. And the Holy Spirit is God. And the Father is not the Son, the Son is not the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit is not the Father.

 

[Episkopos]

But if you have the Holy Spirit, you will recognize the truth.

But that is insufficient. The bible speaks of people that walked WITH God. So then anything less than that is falling short of being a people who walk by the word.

Imagine if reading the bible was just an account of other people reading the bible. It would be like watching a movie based on other people watching a movie. We are a generation of spectators. But God is looking to come into the world through us. We are to be the players on the stage....dong the kind of works we read about in the bible.

 

[Dave L]

But that is insufficient. The bible speaks of people that walked WITH God. So then anything less than that is falling short of being a people who walk by the word.

Imagine if reading the bible was just an account of other people reading the bible. It would be like watching a movie based on other people watching a movie. We are a generation of spectators. But God is looking to come into the world through us. We are to be the players on the stage....dong the kind of works we read about in the bible.

You cannot understand the word unless you have the Holy Spirit.

 

[Episkopos]

Adherence to a creed is a man-made attempt at unity. We are to be alive together in God. Not agreeing about a statement we think describes God. Religion sells God short. It also sells short what we are capable of through Christ.

What we should be seeking for is God's intervention, His visitation, His empowerment. His presence in our midst and in us.

 

[Episkopos]

You cannot understand the word unless you have the Holy Spirit.

Unless you are walking like Jesus...you haven't yet understood the word.

 

[jaybird]

Numbers 23:19
19 God is not a man, "THAT" he should lie,or a son of man, "THAT" he should change his mind.

(MEN....LIE....God does not.
(MEN....CHANGE THEIR MINDS...God does not "change" what he says he WILL DO.

It is a comparison between what men do, and what God does not, "can not", do.

Numbers 23:19
Has he said, and will he not do it?
Or has he spoken, and will he not fulfill it?

(Challenging questions TO MEN.
(In respect to what God Will DO and CAN NOT DO.

Ties into ~ and reaffirmed

Malachi 3:6
...I, the LORD, do not change...

Hebrews 13:8
Jesus Christ, the same to day, yesterday and for ever.

----

Thee Most High IS Thee Lord God Almighty.

It is His Absolute Authority and Power over ALL of His Creations and things He has Made.
He Being without beginning or ending.

Men (angels too) are Appointed and Given measures of "authority" and "power" ;
and can and do, LOSE the ability to exercise the "authority" and "power" they were given.

Glory to God,
Taken

yes i get the part that the Most High does not lie, i figured that out from the "that He should lie" part of the scripture.
and what example does the scripture provide for us to prove that He does not lie, the part that you guys seem to be blinded to, He is not a man.

 

[Dave L]

Adherence to a creed is a man-made attempt at unity. We are to be alive together in God. Not agreeing about a statement we think describes God. Religion sells God short. It also sells short what we are capable of through Christ.

What we should be seeking for is God's intervention, His visitation, His empowerment. His presence in our midst and in us.

Creeds unite the Church in truth. Without them we have division. Did God put teachers in the Church? Do they teach through books? Do they get together and refute heretics? Then to ignore these is to ignore God's provision for the church.

 

[Dave L]

Unless you are walking like Jesus...you haven't yet understood the word.

When is the last time you sold everything and gave to the poor? And volunteered to place yourself in harms way for the sake of your enemies?

 

[OzSpen]

Precisely. Which is why the Bible is my creed, not the man made formulas drawn up in vain attempts to define the indefinable.

brakelite,

Some of the creeds are excellent summaries of essential biblical teaching.

Don't you believe in God's gift of teachers who have been involved in formulating the doctrines of the creeds? See 1 Cor 12:28; Eph 4:11; Rom 12:7)?

To discard the creeds is to reject God's gift of teachers.

Oz

 

[Episkopos]

Creeds unite the Church in truth. Without them we have division. Did God put teachers in the Church? Do they teach through books? Do they get together and refute heretics? Then to ignore these is to ignore God's provision for the church.

Jesus didn't come to bring that kind of unity. He came to bring division within a family...a sword...a fire.

Unity is through a shared life...a new kind of life. A life that is in connection to God. Instead of looking down at books...we are to be beholding the face of God.

 

[Episkopos]

When is the last time you sold everything and gave to the poor? And volunteered to place yourself in harms way for the sake of your enemies?

That will be the topic on judgment day....not how often we read the bible or if we adhered to a certain creed.

 

[Taken]

That's the problem here.

People "have" the Holy Spirit that guides them into all truth.

Not the Problem.

But

Get ready, for Daves idea of why ....

The "People" .

Dave first says; "People have"...

Then "implies" the "PEOPLE" who have the Holy Spirit that guides them to all truth.... is not sufficient.

they don't trust God

Daves introduction of an accusation AGAINST the "People", "who have", the Holy Spirit....

By Declaring, the People "do not TRUST God."

In essence, "the People who Have the Holy Spirit....Have FOOLED GOD!.....but not Dave.

Now Dave introduces WHAT (Specific) People with the Holy Spirit, DO NOT TRUST.

to show them the truth in books written by the teachers of the church.

According to Dave.......
"People" ( "WITH the Holy Spirit" ) ...
Supposedly "do not trust God"...IF they
"DO NOT" accept "books" /writings of men,
"THAT IS NOT THE BIBLE"!

You cannot know the truth unless exposed to it.

That is TRUE.

But somehow books are bad because people (full of the Holy Spirit) wrote them.

Dave your teaching and instigation and accusations ARE FLAWED!

First of all YOU can not "KNOW" WHO IS FULL OF THE HOLY SPIRIT OR NOT.

You Can only "KNOW" a man by what he DOES.

Men WRITE BOOKS, writings, and at ANYTIME can CHANGE their own thoughts, about what they wrote! They can even REWRITE or REVISE their own thoughts....or not.

Not one person has proclaimed, BOOKS are bad. (This is simply you setting up a FALSE premise to continue your finger wagging at people who disagree with you).

You can read their writings....and spend your time VERIFYING it against WHAT GOD APPROVED....."OR"

YOU could do what MEN on this FORUM have TOLD YOU THEY DO......Skipping past spending their time READING WHAT MEN HAVE WRITTEN OUT SIDE OF THE BIBLE...
AND INSTEAD SPEND THEIR TIME and "TRUST" IN READING and LEARNING from the BOOK of Scriptures THAT God HIMSELF APPROVED!

Men who HAVE the HOLY SPIRIT....HAVE a BOOK written by men, THAT GOD HIMSELF approved!

God Approved the Scriptures.
The scriptures are written and published.
It does not matter IF the men who wrote it, or once believed it, and "Changed their thoughts"........GOD DIDN'T.

Dave YOU are attempting to EXALT writings of Men, "equal to or above" TRUSTING Gods Approved writings!

And your ATTEMPTS have repeatedly been rejected.

It is obvious, you are disappointed at the Rejection of your ideas and your teaching....

Since, your reaction to the rejection IS to THEN make PERSONAL derragatory remarks toward the People who have rejected your teaching.

Dave ~ your tactics are as old as the hills.
Nothing new; and easily recognized.

If YOU are incapable of Reading the scriptures Approved of God, and require OTHER MEN to read it for you, and then POINT OUT highlights YOU SHOULD focus on.....
THAT'S YOU.

No one has bad mouthed you for what YOU proclaim is Helpful FOR YOU.

Unlike YOU, who has bad mouthed people WHO do not require the HELP or FASHION of HELP you require.

Have some common sense. Not everyone is Like you. Some men have the capability to Read Gods Approved Scriptural writings AND trust the writings without an Unapproved Third Party dictating to them.

By YOUR method, men have to make VOWS to men to TRUST "their" writings.

By OTHER mens method, men make VOWS to God, to TRUST "GODS approved" writings.

YOU, are attempting to take it upon yourself, that ALL MEN "should" trust "other mens writings"......WHY?

Some men have ALREADY TOLD YOU....THEY are confident TRUSTING the WRITINGS that God Himself Approved, is sufficient.

So...Dave....put aside your finger wagging AT People.... AND PROVE Gods own Writings are "INSUFFICIENT", and that ALL MEN have NO OPTION but to "TRUST" what OTHER men DO, and mimic THEM.

We'll wait for your explanation...

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Dave L]

Not the Problem.



Get ready, for Daves idea of why ....

The "People" .

Dave first says; "People have"...

Then "implies" the "PEOPLE" who have the Holy Spirit that guides them to all truth.... is not sufficient.



Daves introduction of an accusation AGAINST the "People", "who have", the Holy Spirit....

By Declaring, the People "do not TRUST God."

In essence, "the People who Have the Holy Spirit....Have FOOLED GOD!.....but not Dave.

Now Dave introduces WHAT (Specific) People with the Holy Spirit, DO NOT TRUST.



According to Dave.......
"People" ( "WITH the Holy Spirit" ) ...
Supposedly "do not trust God"...IF they
"DO NOT" accept "books" /writings of men,
"THAT IS NOT THE BIBLE"!



That is TRUE.



Dave your teaching and instigation and accusations ARE FLAWED!

First of all YOU can not "KNOW" WHO IS FULL OF THE HOLY SPIRIT OR NOT.

You Can only "KNOW" a man by what he DOES.

Men WRITE BOOKS, writings, and at ANYTIME can CHANGE their own thoughts, about what they wrote! They can even REWRITE or REVISE their own thoughts....or not.

Not one person has proclaimed, BOOKS are bad. (This is simply you setting up a FALSE premise to continue your finger wagging at people who disagree with you).

You can read their writings....and spend your time VERIFYING it against WHAT GOD APPROVED....."OR"

YOU could do what MEN on this FORUM have TOLD YOU THEY DO......Skipping past spending their time READING WHAT MEN HAVE WRITTEN OUT SIDE OF THE BIBLE...
AND INSTEAD SPEND THEIR TIME and "TRUST" IN READING and LEARNING from the BOOK of Scriptures THAT God HIMSELF APPROVED!

Men who HAVE the HOLY SPIRIT....HAVE a BOOK written by men, THAT GOD HIMSELF approved!

God Approved the Scriptures.
The scriptures are written and published.
It does not matter IF the men who wrote it, or once believed it, and "Changed their thoughts"........GOD DIDN'T.

Dave YOU are attempting to EXALT writings of Men, "equal to or above" TRUSTING Gods Approved writings!

And your ATTEMPTS have repeatedly been rejected.

It is obvious, you are disappointed at the Rejection of your ideas and your teaching....

Since, your reaction to the rejection IS to THEN make PERSONAL derragatory remarks toward the People who have rejected your teaching.

Dave ~ your tactics are as old as the hills.
Nothing new; and easily recognized.

If YOU are incapable of Reading the scriptures Approved of God, and require OTHER MEN to read it for you, and then POINT OUT highlights YOU SHOULD focus on.....
THAT'S YOU.

No one has bad mouthed you for what YOU proclaim is Helpful FOR YOU.

Unlike YOU, who has bad mouthed people WHO do not require the HELP or FASHION of HELP you require.

Have some common sense. Not everyone is Like you. Some men have the capability to Read Gods Approved Scriptural writings AND trust the writings without an Unapproved Third Party dictating to them.

By YOUR method, men have to make VOWS to men to TRUST "their" writings.

By OTHER mens method, men make VOWS to God, to TRUST "GODS approved" writings.

YOU, are attempting to take it upon yourself, that ALL MEN "should" trust "other mens writings"......WHY?

Some men have ALREADY TOLD YOU....THEY are confident TRUSTING the WRITINGS that God Himself Approved, is sufficient.

So...Dave....put aside your finger wagging AT People.... AND PROVE Gods own Writings are "INSUFFICIENT", and that ALL MEN have NO OPTION but to "TRUST" what OTHER men DO, and mimic THEM.

We'll wait for your explanation...

Glory to God,
Taken

Dave's idea? How about Christendom being in full agreement with me. And a few obscure sects, Islam, Judaism, Jws and others siding with you...?

 

[Dave L]

That will be the topic on judgment day....not how often we read the bible or if we adhered to a certain creed.

But if you don't know the truth, you don't know Christ very well if at all.

 

[Dave L]

Jesus didn't come to bring that kind of unity. He came to bring division within a family...a sword...a fire.

Unity is through a shared life...a new kind of life. A life that is in connection to God. Instead of looking down at books...we are to be beholding the face of God.

Yes, we who appreciate the truth contained in the trinitarian creeds are at odds with Islam, Judaism, and other cults and sects.

 

[bbyrd009]

^yet love believes all things, and i tell you that many will come from East and West and recline with Abraham Isaac and Jacob

so we can use whats written later to undue what was written before?


not sure on this one

Scriptures invites us to put Jesus in there, while Jesus assures us we will do greater things. And the Two Greeks who came to worship Jesus is occluded, along with the open secret that we are to be like gods too, elohim, Priests under a High Priest, with a job to do, break up Nehushtan, etc. Only none of this sells very well i guess, to ppl who seek immortality and want Apollo/Mercury/Jesus to "return" and take them to Valhalla/heaven and be with Zeus/Jupiter/God, see all you have to do is change the dress i guess, and keep your eyes closed and believe really hard. How else might we see who is in the cult of Sol, i guess