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jaybird
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- Feb 29, 2016
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ohh ok, now i understand what your getting at. according to you the Father is not a man, but the Son is a man/can become a man?
this would work if the passage said "Father" however the passage says "G-D".
so when the passage says the Most High is not a man, what does that mean?
Actually, in scripture, God is primarily referred to as the Father (James 3:9, Romans 15:6, 1 Corinthians 8:6). The Father became the Son, and this is substantiated by Hebrews 1:8-9 and other passages. Because there is one God, even the Father; however it is evident that the Son is also God.
The Father begot the Son. Big difference.
No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him. (John 1:18)
And the Son is called "God" by the Father. Which means a unique Father-Son relationship within the Godhead, not a begetting as in humans.
But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows. (Heb 1:8,9)
Nancy
Well-Known Member
The Son, through the venue of the LORD's zeal, shall have the name everlasting Father (Isaiah 9:6-7).
The Son is begotten in the sense that He is the same Spirit as the Father encapsulated in human flesh (John 4:23-24, John 14:7-11). There is one Spirit, one Lord, one God (Ephesians 4:4-6) and they are the same Spirit, the same Lord, and the same God (1 Corinthians 12:4-6).
It is a choice between the Son being begotten through the virgin birth; or the Son being begotten by the creation of some kind of eternal mirror in the heavenlies which God created so that He could send someone besides Himself to do the work of redemption in dying on the Cross. In other words, He passed the buck. Either the Son is eternally begotten according to some of the creeds or He was begotten through the virgin birth (i.e. the Father became the Son) and when He ascended into heaven, He ascended to dwell back in eternity, outside of time, as I think Ephesians 4:10 might tell you. How Jesus can dwell in eternity in a human body of flesh is beyond me; but I think that it must somehow be possible within the realm of the ten dimensions spoken of in the Bible Codes of Genesis chapter 1. For we also know from scripture that with God nothing shall be impossible.
Now of course, if the Son is eternally begotten through the creation of some kind of eternal mirror, then there is a God besides Jehovah contrary to Isaiah 45:5 and Isaiah 45:18 and Isaiah 45:21.
But if Jesus was begotten through the process of the Spirit, who is the Father, (Ephesians 4:4, John 4:23-24, John 7:39) taking on the nature of a human being (John 14:7-11, Luke 1:35), then the Person formed is the same Person as Jehovah only with an added nature of human flesh; and therefore He would also be a different Person (per se) because of that added nature. Nevertheless He would be the same Spirit, the same Lord, and the same God (1 Corinthians 12:4-6).
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God the Father, after becoming the Son, said to His former self, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body thou hast prepared me: (Hebrews 10:5);
And this is what it means that the Son is begotten.
And this is what it means that the Son is begotten.
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OzSpen
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E,
Cherry-picking one verse without exposition does not help with a biblical explanation of the context of 2 Cor 3. Let's look at the context of this passage:
Are we beginning to commend ourselves again? Or do we need, like some people, letters of recommendation to you or from you? 2 You yourselves are our letter, written on our hearts, known and read by everyone. 3 You show that you are a letter from Christ, the result of our ministry, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts.
4 Such confidence we have through Christ before God. 5 Not that we are competent in ourselves to claim anything for ourselves, but our competence comes from God. 6 He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant—not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life (2 Cor 3:1-6 NIV).
4 Such confidence we have through Christ before God. 5 Not that we are competent in ourselves to claim anything for ourselves, but our competence comes from God. 6 He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant—not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life (2 Cor 3:1-6 NIV).
The 'new covenant' is described by Paul in v. 6 as 'not of the letter', which is compared with what is written in v. 3: The Corinthian Christians were not the result of a letter written with ink ('not on tablets of stone') but on 'tablets of the human heart'.
So, under the new covenant, the Law of God is written on the hearts and minds of God's redeemed people. We see the contrast in Ezek 36:27 (NIV): 'And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws'.
This message by Ezek is similar to that in Jeremiah 31:33-34.
What did Paul have in mind when he used this language, 'for the letter kills'? Based on the above explanation, 'of the letter' is the message that comes to people whose hearts are of stone. So they are dead and unable to follow God's instructions, including His decrees. Thus, the ministry of the letter is a ministry of death which amounts to a ministry of condemnation.
In contrast to the spirit of the stony reception of the letter, the true believers are those who have the Spirit in them (as Ezek 36:27 puts it).
The argument in the context of this verse is not a dead book (the Bible) vs a living God in believers. The context is that the Spirit has changed the Corinthians, so they now have a heart for God and that is expressed in their visible behaviour (2 Cor 3:2-3) that gave Paul confidence (3:4) that as Christ's apostle his ministry among them was not in vain, i.e. they were 'competent as ministers of a new covenant' (3:6).
They do not have stony hearts that are dead to the things of God.
Please, please interpret a passage in context and don't dump a verse on me that states what you want it to mean.
Oz
Why do you need the Trinity to support the deity of Christ? Why not accept simply the testimony of scripture... You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.
We need some clarity here: Is Jesus the Father, and is the Holy Spirit also the Father? Not possible.
This is not even an option, and I believe you would agree. So why don't we simplify everything:
Is the Father uncreated God? Agree? Disagree?
Is the Son uncreated God? Agree? Disagree?
Is the Holy Spirit uncreated God? Agree? Disagree?
And even so, is there only one God -- the Godhead? Agree? Disagree?
If we are in agreement on all three points, then that should be the position of all Bible-believing Christians.
Whenever Jesus was speaking of God, He was referring solely to His Father. When Jesus said God is Spirit, He was not referring to a trinity. When Jesus said "I go to my Father and your Father, to My God and your God", he was not referring to a trinity. When Jesus said, "this is life eternal, that they may know Thee, the only true God", He was not referring to a trinity. When Peter said, "thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God", he was not referring to Jesus as being the Son of a trinity.
The Father is the only true God. Jesus said.
The Father is Spirit, the one to be worshipped in spirit and in truth. Jesus said.
The Father is He whom we need to know in order to have eternal life. Jesus said.
God is the Father. The Father is God. He is Jesus' Father, and His God. Jesus said.
The Father of Jesus is the living God. Peter said, inspired by the holy Spirit.
The Father is the one God. The source of all things. Paul said, inspired by the holy Spirit.
None of the above removes in one iota the divinity of Christ. Why? Because Jesus is the Son of God. Being the Son of God, He inherited all things... His name... His authority... His very life... The very same life of the Father. Immortal, divine, holy. But because this life was His as a gift, He was able to lay it down and die. This the Father could not do. But God (not a trinity) begotten in the form of the Son, begotten of the Father in eternity, and through Whom the Father created all thingst, indeed did give His life a ransom for man.
First of all, we need to be clear that we are discussing the Mystery of God. So how is it that the Father is the Head (or Authority) over the Son (Christ)? (1 Cor 11:3) ["God" generally means "the Father"]
We see from Scripture that there is a hierarchy within the Godhead with the Father as the ultimate Authority, who has delegated to the Son all power in Heaven and on earth, and made Him both Savior and Judge over all mankind. And because there is perfect love and harmony within the Godhead, there will come a time when the Son will hand back everything to the Father. This in no way diminishes the perfect deity of Christ or the Holy Spirit (who primarily directs men to Christ).
Precisely. Which is why the Bible is my creed, not the man made formulas drawn up in vain attempts to define the indefinable.
Oh please. Nothing in our faith should negate our ability to recognise wisdom when it is presented to us.
Jun2u
Well-Known Member
Prove the Trinity wrong challenge.
Is the verse below Scripture or not? If it is doesn't it prove the existence of the Trinity?
2 Corinthians 13:14:
"The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost be with you all, Amen."
To God Be The Glory
Is the verse below Scripture or not? If it is doesn't it prove the existence of the Trinity?
2 Corinthians 13:14:
"The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost be with you all, Amen."
To God Be The Glory
That's the problem here. People have the Holy Spirit that guides them into all truth. But they don't trust God to show them the truth in books written by the teachers of the church. You cannot know the truth unless exposed to it. But somehow books are bad because people (full of the Holy Spirit) wrote them.
Because you have an idol and not the true God, apart from the scripture quoted in the "books" that God uses to reveal himself to us. Plus you cause division and separate yourself from the Church apart from this understanding.
Numbers 23:19
19 God is not a man, "THAT" he should lie,or a son of man, "THAT" he should change his mind.
(MEN....LIE....God does not.
(MEN....CHANGE THEIR MINDS...God does not "change" what he says he WILL DO.
It is a comparison between what men do, and what God does not, "can not", do.
Numbers 23:19
Has he said, and will he not do it?
Or has he spoken, and will he not fulfill it?
(Challenging questions TO MEN.
(In respect to what God Will DO and CAN NOT DO.
Ties into ~ and reaffirmed
Malachi 3:6
...I, the LORD, do not change...
Hebrews 13:8
Jesus Christ, the same to day, yesterday and for ever.
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Thee Most High IS Thee Lord God Almighty.
It is His Absolute Authority and Power over ALL of His Creations and things He has Made.
He Being without beginning or ending.
Men (angels too) are Appointed and Given measures of "authority" and "power" ;
and can and do, LOSE the ability to exercise the "authority" and "power" they were given.
Glory to God,
Taken
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